The gospel is "believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved"...?

[Guojing]

Yes i completely believe for any person believing that Jesus is the promised Messiah (unique/ only begotten son of God) and trust in The Messiah for eternal life they are given eternal life.

What if I tell you that You have to believe in Jesus’s death burial and resurrection, in order to be saved under the current gospel of grace?

 

[d taylor]

What if I tell you that You have to believe in Jesus’s death burial and resurrection, in order to be saved under the current gospel of grace?

The object for a persons faith is Jesus, He is the possesser of eternal life.

Jesus death and resurrection was a miracle that proved that Jesus was who he said he was.

If the resurrection does not point you back to Jesus then a person is ignoring/missing a sign meant to direct the person to Jesus for eternal life.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I see you would rather take the NIV than the KJV, okay then. We tend to interpret the bible based on how we were taught in the churches we go to.

I see you'd not even come out and say there are two gospels, nor state the difference between the two. Not to mention you can't show us so much as an indication anywhere else in scripture that says there are two gospels.

IOW you don't seem at all confident of this, yet you are teaching it, something God might consider changing the scripture and an extremely reckless thing to do.

 

[EmethAlethia]

"believe in/on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved"...?

"Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

That's a good passage. The problem is that the "Many" "On the Broad path that leads to destruction", who believe/have faith, believe that He is their Lord, their God, and their Savior, and believe that they seek Him with all their heart, mind, soul and strength. But they are still lost and headed for hell, and they never were those that Jesus ever knew.

Does belief in a lie save? Look at the Hebrews 11:6 passage again. Present tense. Ongoing, habitual action. Two parts. believe there is a God, AND believe that He rewards those that keep on continuously seeking Him as a habit and way of life and never stop. In scripture belief = what you habitually obey, disobedience = disbelief (Hint Romans)

"Belief groups do not exist to get their members to truth. Belief groups exist to teach, promote, defend, evangelize... the groups beliefs "as" "truth"." Me 1990's

All belief groups use the following Methodology to hold fast to what they want to believe "as" truth:

1.) They gather everything they can "use" to prove their beliefs true.
2.) They gather everything they can "use" to prove all opposing beliefs false.
3.) They interpret their "selected" data in the light of their beliefs.
4.) They explain away, reinterpret, ignore, invalidate, discredit ... any data that might "seem" to contradict their views.

Like I said, this allows anyone to hold to "whatever beliefs they want" "about" God, Jesus, the bible, and everything else they "want to believe" "as" truth. But that methodology is worse than useless for getting anyone to truth. All it can do is harden you into "what you want to believe", closing your eyes and ears to even considering anything else. But if you "love your beliefs" "about" God, Salvation, Christianity, the bible, EVERYONE GETS WHATEVER THEY NEED TO BELIEVE WHATEVER THEY WANT AS TRUTH.

Sorry, I used caps to get everyone's attention. Here's a timeless truth from scripture:

"2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. "

I understand that the original context is talking about those who are going to be deceived in the end times. The connecting word "But" that begins verse 13 tells us that this process has been going on for a really long time as the people who Paul is writing to are compared using the exact same text, and they did receive a belief in the truth, and not a lie. (Thus this is the ongoing litmus test.)

If we receive a love of the truth, we will eventually, if we keep on habitually seeking, proving, rightly dividing ...all things, over and over again as a habit and way of life ... get to the truth so we can believe it. If we do not avoid doing what all belief group's do to hold fast to their beliefs "as" truth, then we will receive a deluding influence from God Himself so that we will b believe a lie. Same Greek word as is used for saving faith. Only it's a faith that kills.

faith is broad. Everyone has faith. The faith that saves requires a willingness to keep on continuously proving ALL things over and over again, as a habit and way of life, and always exchanging our current beliefs for what is good/true.

There is a big difference between seeking what you can use to prove your beliefs about God true using scripture, and avoiding "Methodology One" like the plague and pursuing what it takes to get to the truth even if it destroys every last one of your core beliefs, and everything that you value in your life right beside it.

"That which we love least will always be made to conform to that which we love most. Everyone either loves the truth or loves their beliefs."

A bit from the book I am writing "Truth vs. Beliefs".

 

[Neogaia777]

"Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

That's a good passage. The problem is that the "Many" "On the Broad path that leads to destruction", who believe/have faith, believe that He is their Lord, their God, and their Savior, and believe that they seek Him with all their heart, mind, soul and strength. But they are still lost and headed for hell, and they never were those that Jesus ever knew.

Does belief in a lie save? Look at the Hebrews 11:6 passage again. Present tense. Ongoing, habitual action. Two parts. believe there is a God, AND believe that He rewards those that keep on continuously seeking Him as a habit and way of life and never stop. In scripture belief = what you habitually obey, disobedience = disbelief (Hint Romans)

"Belief groups do not exist to get their members to truth. Belief groups exist to teach, promote, defend, evangelize... the groups beliefs "as" "truth"." Me 1990's

All belief groups use the following Methodology to hold fast to what they want to believe "as" truth:

1.) They gather everything they can "use" to prove their beliefs true.
2.) They gather everything they can "use" to prove all opposing beliefs false.
3.) They interpret their "selected" data in the light of their beliefs.
4.) They explain away, reinterpret, ignore, invalidate, discredit ... any data that might "seem" to contradict their views.

Like I said, this allows anyone to hold to "whatever beliefs they want" "about" God, Jesus, the bible, and everything else they "want to believe" "as" truth. But that methodology is worse than useless for getting anyone to truth. All it can do is harden you into "what you want to believe", closing your eyes and ears to even considering anything else. But if you "love your beliefs" "about" God, Salvation, Christianity, the bible, EVERYONE GETS WHATEVER THEY NEED TO BELIEVE WHATEVER THEY WANT AS TRUTH.

Sorry, I used caps to get everyone's attention. Here's a timeless truth from scripture:

"2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. "

I understand that the original context is talking about those who are going to be deceived in the end times. The connecting word "But" that begins verse 13 tells us that this process has been going on for a really long time as the people who Paul is writing to are compared using the exact same text, and they did receive a belief in the truth, and not a lie. (Thus this is the ongoing litmus test.)

If we receive a love of the truth, we will eventually, if we keep on habitually seeking, proving, rightly dividing ...all things, over and over again as a habit and way of life ... get to the truth so we can believe it. If we do not avoid doing what all belief group's do to hold fast to their beliefs "as" truth, then we will receive a deluding influence from God Himself so that we will b believe a lie. Same Greek word as is used for saving faith. Only it's a faith that kills.

faith is broad. Everyone has faith. The faith that saves requires a willingness to keep on continuously proving ALL things over and over again, as a habit and way of life, and always exchanging our current beliefs for what is good/true.

There is a big difference between seeking what you can use to prove your beliefs about God true using scripture, and avoiding "Methodology One" like the plague and pursuing what it takes to get to the truth even if it destroys every last one of your core beliefs, and everything that you value in your life right beside it.

"That which we love least will always be made to conform to that which we love most. Everyone either loves the truth or loves their beliefs."

A bit from the book I am writing "Truth vs. Beliefs".

Who is the Judge...?

By that I mean, are we to judge one another, in anything, or especially in ones faith walk or journey, or especially as to who is saved or who is not saved, are we to be judging one another "along the way"...? as to where a person is at vs. where we think they should be, ect...?

Do you think God will judge everyone the same...? or maybe I should say do you think God will judge everyone the same "in our eyes and judgment" maybe...? What do you think?, how will He judge...?

How can we know what is the Truth that everyone should believe and go by, when so much of we call and determine to be truth or the Truth, is because of who we are, and were, and how we are each made, ect, or is colored by our lives, perception, and experience, or experiences...? We are fundamentally flawed, each and every single one of us, when it come to judging and judgement, which can make truth or finding truth, very difficult and elusive...

So how can we judge rightly as to what is right or what is true or false, or ever judge with "truly righteous" judgment ever...?

There is always going to be something, and there always is something that "skews" our judgements away from being truly right or truly righteous judgements...

There are 10's of thousands of different just Christian denominations, that means 10's of thousands of different ways people believe scripture, or have interpreted scripture, and those are just only the ones who went off and actually started their own sect... For there are even way far more different individual interpretations, so who is right, if them are, and who is or should be the judge of it...?

What is the one thing, or the one main things we are all supposed to believe or be in common...? and how many actually are, or truly are, and/or how many are truly adhering to it...?

What does it "look like" in one or anyone when they do...?

God Bless!

 

[Guojing]

I see you'd not even come out and say there are two gospels, nor state the difference between the two. Not to mention you can't show us so much as an indication anywhere else in scripture that says there are two gospels.

IOW you don't seem at all confident of this, yet you are teaching it, something God might consider changing the scripture and an extremely reckless thing to do.

No, I have learned from discussion forums that people rarely change their minds, and some of them get pretty agitated when you disagree with them. I have engaged with you on this topic before anyway.

So the reason why I don't tell you is not due to lack of confidence, I know what I believe in. If you don't want to agree based on scripture, then its best just to agree to disagree. Cheers and God bless.

 

[Guojing]

The object for a persons faith is Jesus, He is the possesser of eternal life.

Jesus death and resurrection was a miracle that proved that Jesus was who he said he was.

If the resurrection does not point you back to Jesus then a person is ignoring/missing a sign meant to direct the person to Jesus for eternal life.

Are you aware that the 11 disciples had no problems believing that Jesus is the promised Messiah and the Son of God, yet they had difficulties believing in his DBR even after it actually happened?

So the 2 beliefs are NOT equivalent.

 

[Kenny'sID]

No, I have learned from discussion forums that people rarely change their minds, and some of them get pretty agitated when you disagree with them. I have engaged with you on this topic before anyway.

So the reason why I don't tell you is not due to lack of confidence, I know what I believe in. If you don't want to agree based on scripture, then its best just to agree to disagree. Cheers and God bless.

Of course they don't change their minds when the opposing side refuses to answer a few very simple questions.

If I don't want to agree based of scripture??

How can I even get to that point when you'll not show me that scripture, the scripture that backs up your augment. No one is forcing you to defend it, but when you substitute defense with that stuff you just posted as an excuse, that's precisely what it will be seen as.

Now more than ever, I think it is lack of confidence in your stance.

 

[Guojing]

Of course they don't change their minds when the opposing side refuses to answer a few very simple questions.

If I don't want to agree based of scripture??

How can I even get to that point when you'll not show me that scripture, the scripture that backs up your augment. No one is forcing you to defend it, but when you substitute defense with that stuff you just posted as an excuse, that's precisely what it will be seen as.

Now more than ever, I think it is lack of confidence in your stance.

I have already shown you Galatians 2:7 and you stated you rather accept the NIV than the KJV. That is enough to conclude this debate. =)

 

[Kenny'sID]

I have already shown you Galatians 2:7 and you stated you rather accept the NIV than the KJV. That is enough to conclude this debate. =)

And I have already shown you fair questions, as well as explain why what you showed me (one small word) didn't come close to being enough to change everything we always though about the gospel, making mine a very fair expectation.

 

[Guojing]

And I have already shown you fair questions, as well as explain why what you showed me (one small word) didn't come close to being enough to change everything I always thought about the gospel, making mine a very fair expectation.

Corrected for clarity. =)

 

[Kenny'sID]

Corrected for clarity. =)

See there, you act as if it's not even realistic to think there is one gospel, so how how can I take seriously your claim, especially with no backing/proof.

 

[Jimmy Ham]

"Do you believe in Jesus to go to heaven or to be saved? Or do you want to go to heaven to meet Jesus?"

God is holy.

God is love but that is not all of God.

God is righteous.

I do not need the blood of Jesus to solve the problem of sin.

If so, Jesus is being thoroughly devastated.

It is to kill Jesus twice.

It is right to be saved if we believe, but before we realize that we are sinners and repent. To believe that you are saved by sin and salvation is just like washing a dirty car and not changing its owner.


It is first to realize that you are a sinner under the wrath of the Holy God.

That is why the grace of God is necessary and the love of God is meaningful.

The present gospel seems to have forgotten God's holiness and wrath.

Half an elephant is not an elephant.

The half-time gospel may not be the gospel. It can be rather the opposite.

 

[d taylor]

Are you aware that the 11 disciples had no problems believing that Jesus is the promised Messiah and the Son of God, yet they had difficulties believing in his DBR even after it actually happened?

So the 2 beliefs are NOT equivalent.

Do you know Abraham did not even know that the Messiah was to die. Not until Isaiah was that known.

 

[Guojing]

See there, you act as if it's not even realistic to think there is one gospel, so how how can I take seriously your claim, especially with no backing/proof.

Gospel simply means good news.

What is good news for the Jews during Jesus time on earth? The good news is that their promised messiah and king, which was told by their prophets isaiah, Hosea and others is finally here to deliver them. However, they still need to keep the law of Moses under that gospel.

But as the 4 gospels and early acts goes, the Jews rejected that gospel.

So God saved Paul to deliver a new gospel to the Gentiles, one where people can be saved, apart from works of the law, by believing in Jesus death burial and resurrection for their sins.

That is good news too.

 

[Guojing]

Do you know Abraham did not even know that the Messiah was to die. Not until Isaiah was that known.

Yes I am aware of that. Abraham was saved because he had faith in God promise and he had to leave the land he was from and go towards a new land. Is that your point?

 

[Blade]

Neogaia777 you know.. there are so many times.. I think.. YES! its so easy I got it.. then someone will ask something .. I never thought of.. BOOM .. its like.. REALLY? haha They just shoot down my house of cards.. with a great question..

Saved.. I think Rom said it "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. New International Version

With our mouth.. we confessed.. with our heart we believe. There are those that can say John 3 16 Rom but.. only with there head.. never there heart Hard pressed to ADD to what is written.

 

[watchman 2]

Do you not believe these verses.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

No, the words believe, believer, and believing are mistranslations.

 

[d taylor]

No, the words believe, believer, and believing are mistranslations.

Well show the correct meaning, so believe does not mean believe.
pisteuó
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Definition: to believe, entrust
Usage: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

Strong's Greek: 4100. πιστεύω (pisteuó) -- to believe, entrust

 

[watchman 2]

Well show the correct meaning, so believe does not mean believe.
pisteuó
pisteuó: to believe, entrust
Original Word: πιστεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: pisteuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pist-yoo'-o)
Definition: to believe, entrust
Usage: I believe, have faith in, trust in; pass: I am entrusted with.

Strong's Greek: 4100. πιστεύω (pisteuó) -- to believe, entrust

You left the most important part of the Strong's definition out!

The Strong's starts by saying " pisteuo means " NOT" just to believe."

The Vines:" a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Producing a full acknowledgement of God's revelation of truth."

Pisteuo is a verb, and action word. A specific action , based upon a specific belief, sustained by a specific kind of confidence.

So belief, or believing is " a part" of pisteuo, or saving Faith, but taken on it's own is error.

The correct understanding of pisteuo or saving Faith is : a continually surrendered life, based upon the Belief that He has taken , maintains, cares for, sustains that surrendered life, sustained by the confidence we are making the hundreds of little daily decisions showing God we truly see our surrendered life asnot ours anymore, but His.

See the difference? When Believe, believing, and believer, are used as the Faith that saves, the object of Faith changes from the surrendered life, to believing God's word and promises. God's word and promises can't be the object of Faith or Faithing, it must be towards Christ Himself , a real living person! The continually surrendered life is what He requires for us to make our abode in Him, and His abode in us.