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The Ghastly Eternal Torment Dogma

BobRyan

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Hello SM, ...well, I'm not a universalist, which I'd be inclined to label you if I've understood the sentiments of your last reply? In my opinion, attempting to speak as scripturally objective and discerning as possible, that the only two soteriological positions are redemption and rejection. And as far as rejection is concerned, the only two options that i might consider are annihilation or eternal damnation. In short, I don't believe that annihilation is a viable option, and thus, weeping and gnashing of teeth, where the flame and the worm dieth not, appears to be inevitable.
Plus, nor do I accept theories of man's fallen nature. All men are created in the image of God, and that image has never been lost, or constitutionally deprecated.

But, as far as who are the saved, and who are the lost goes, outside of the five solas, that remains a mystery to me as to what types of exception that there may be (children, remote civilizations, false indoctrination, ...?). So, as to those who you claim are hell-bound, I don't know about their salvific standing with God. But, i will say, that if for whatever reason they do not qualify for the Kingdom, then yes, eternal ostracization awaits them. For, when the books are opened, we will see what insidious evils lie within all of us, ...and I anticipate that there will be many surprises on that day.

In short, Biblically speaking, the perceived universalist passages do not outweigh the eternally lost principle's proof-texts.

I also do not accept universalism -- neither do I accept infinite torture as the price to be never-fully-paid for finite sin by finite beings.

Rather Matthew 10:28 in the fires and torments of the literal hell that is "lake of fire" in Rev 20 we have "both body and soul destroyed" Matt 10:28 after some period of torment and suffering.

note: That's is not a quote of "me" or of my "magisterium" it is a quote of Matthew 10:28

So then ... not universalism.

What you do accept is annihilation as a proper SDA.

What I accept is Matthew 10:28 - how you choose to label Matthew 10:28 is up to you.

The dogma of the ridiculous everlasting torment & more humane annihilation has the same net result.


I don't find sweeping generalizations and the fallacy of equivocation to be very useful in a discussion.

I prefer Bible "details"
 
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FineLinen

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Are you taking your creed seriously?

“Who could have peace in the Christian hope while overwhelmed with the consciousness that many of those dearest to us are even right now shrieking hopelessly for watery relief from fiery torments? If any can be happy under such a burden of woe, are they hardened to insensibility; or do they really take their creed seriously?

Do believers in eternal hell torment really believe it, in their careless unconcern for the unsaved, or do they just give formal and thoughtless assent to their creeds. A sincere contemplation of such an infinite spectacle of woe as they present about hell is enough to unseat the reason of every believer of it if it weighs on his mind as it should if true. It would be appalling to know the number of all those who thought they had committed ‘the unpardonable sin,’ another erroneous tradition, and that they were hopelessly hell-bound because of it, and as a result became maniacs and suicides.

Yet in utter disregard of the frightful results of their hideous pagan ideas, the eternal hell torment evangelists would like to unchristianize those of us who dare to question their views by turning the searchlight of truth on their errors.

After hell is ended in the lake of fire, where can the previous inhabitants of hell go? Not back to hell, for it then will be no more. Not back into death, for ‘there shall be no more death.’ Only one destiny will be possible for them, and that is the one declared in Is. 26:9, and that is correction through judgment.” -J. Williams-
 
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BobRyan

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After hell is ended in the lake of fire, where can the previous inhabitants of hell go?

"Go"???

Matt 10:28 'Destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" -- that literal fire and brimstone -- "lake of fire" second-death event in Rev 20 does not leave anything "to go". After it ends (no matter how long it takes) - Rev 21 says there is "no more crying... no more tears"
 
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FineLinen

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"Go"???

Matt 10:28 'Destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" -- that literal fire and brimstone -- "lake of fire" second-death event in Rev 20 does not leave anything "to go". After it ends (no matter how long it takes) - Rev 21 says there is "no more crying... no more tears"

I suggest you take a boo at the koine of brimstone instead of skipping along the surface. Brimstone is theion & theioo which is Divine incense rooted in no less than Theos.

God is working to meet and correct some awful fall

This is precisely what the Restitution of our Abba is about.

The Second Death & The Restitution Of All Things.

The complete book below >>>>

The Second Death and the Restitution of All Things by Andrew Jukes (Index)

The Restitution of All Things, Andrew Jukes

The Author & Finisher is working to meet & correct some awful fall.
 
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BobRyan

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I suggest you take a boo at the koine of brimstone instead of skipping along the surface. Brimstone is theion & theioo which is Divine incense rooted in no less than Theos.

Until you read the text.

Rev 14
“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever;"

If you are suggesting we bend-wrench that text into 'divine incense" you have more eisegesis in your blood stream than a great many souls on planet earth :) ... so to speak.

The munge that tries to get "tormented with fire and brimstone" to transmogrify into "tormented with divine incense" -- requires way too much imagination for me and ignores soooo many details it boggles the mind.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Until you read the text.

Rev 14
“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever;"

If you are suggesting we bend-wrench that text into 'divine incense" you have more eisegesis in your blood stream than a great many souls on planet earth :) ... so to speak.

The munge that tries to get "tormented with fire and brimstone" to transmogrify into "tormented with divine incense" -- requires way too much imagination for me and ignores soooo many details it boggles the mind.

I have found that brimstone (aka, sulfur) was used as a fumigant and ritual cleanser in Biblical times, and early readers of Revelation 14 would have understood that perfectly. Modern readers...not so much.

As for the fire, I did an extended word study on "fire" and related words, and discovered that all instances of Fire in the Bible are either natural fire or Godfire. Hellfire? Nope, that concept is up in smoke... Fire is very closely associated with God, so the "fire and brimstone" is a means of cleansing, and what else could you expect when it is right there in front of the holy angels and the Lamb? It is all part of God describing Himself as a Refiner or as Soap.
 
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Saint Steven

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I have found that brimstone (aka, sulfur) was used as a fumigant and ritual cleanser in Biblical times, and early readers of Revelation 14 would have understood that perfectly. Modern readers...not so much.

As for the fire, I did an extended word study on "fire" and related words, and discovered that all instances of Fire in the Bible are either natural fire or Godfire. Hellfire? Nope, that concept is up in smoke... Fire is very closely associated with God, so the "fire and brimstone" is a means of cleansing, and what else could you expect when it is right there in front of the holy angels and the Lamb? It is all part of God describing Himself as a Refiner or as Soap.
Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
 
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FineLinen

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The munge that tries to get "tormented with fire and brimstone" to transmogrify into "tormented with divine incense" -- requires way too much imagination for me and ignores soooo many details it boggles the mind.

Let not your imagination be boggled. Our God IS Fire. It is not an aspect of Abba, it is His essence from which His characteristics flow in perfect harmony.

Welcome to our God the Katesthió Pur!
 
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BobRyan

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Let not your imagination be boggled. Our God IS Fire.
1. Our God is not "Fire and brimstone"
2. Sodom and Gomorrah also burned by "fire and brimstone"

Real ... not "incense"

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

In which the elements melt with a fervent heat.
2 Peter 3
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. ...
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Not the language of "incense"
 
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BobRyan

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Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

In which the elements melt with a fervent heat.
2 Peter 3
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. ...
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Not the language of "incense"
 
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BobRyan

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I have found that brimstone (aka, sulfur) was used as a fumigant and ritual cleanser in Biblical times,


And used to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah

Kinda like "Water" is the stuff we drink - and was used to destroy all life on planet Earth that "breaths air"
in Genesis 7.
 
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Lazarus Short

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And used to destroy the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah

Kinda like "Water" is the stuff we drink - and was used to destroy all life on planet Earth that "breaths air"
in Genesis 7.

Exactly - Sodom & Gomorrah were destroyed by Godfire. God has also stated that He will restore the fortunes of these very cities.
 
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Basil the Great

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The teaching of eternal torment would appear to be Christianity's most difficult doctrine to accept. Even Pope John Paul II, now a canonized saint in the Catholic Church, said that he did not think that the New Testament's descriptions of torment were meant to be taken literally.
 
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Lazarus Short

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The teaching of eternal torment would appear to be Christianity's most difficult doctrine to accept. Even Pope John Paul II, now a canonized saint in the Catholic Church, said that he did not think that the New Testament's descriptions of torment were meant to be taken literally.

Yes, it's hard to swallow given:

A God of love and forgiveness

The questionable translation of sheol, hades, gehenna and tartarus into "hell"

The greatest support comes from FICTION, such as Dante and Milton

and God's failure to mention that He created the place in the first place.
 
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BobRyan

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Exactly - Sodom & Gomorrah were destroyed by Godfire. God has also stated that He will restore the fortunes of these very cities.

Nothing in the Bible says cities get resurrected and nothing says the the wicked die and come back as saints.

There is no history or promise that we see in the Bible for Sodom rebuilt or for the wicked who died in Sodom restored into paradise.

They are said to condemn other folks at the resurrection of the wicked - the second resurrection in Rev 20 -- but that is not the same as "paradise" or living in the New Earth.

Only after all the wicked are destroyed "Both body and soul" Matt 10:28 in the lake of fire event in Rev 20 do we find the Rev 21 statement "no more crying... no more tears".
 
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Lazarus Short

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Nothing in the Bible says cities get resurrected and nothing says the the wicked die and come back as saints.

There is no history or promise that we see in the Bible for Sodom rebuilt or for the wicked who died in Sodom restored into paradise.

They are said to condemn other folks at the resurrection of the wicked - the second resurrection in Rev 20 -- but that is not the same as "paradise" or living in the New Earth.

Only after all the wicked are destroyed "Both body and soul" Matt 10:28 in the lake of fire event in Rev 20 do we find the Rev 21 statement "no more crying... no more tears".

Consult Ezekiel 16:53 for your answer. Sodom, Gomorrah, Samaria and even Judah are promised restoration. The problem with the wicked being totally destroyed, body & soul, is that later on, death is defeated, and how can that happen if any are still dead and/or in Hell? I am still waiting for a satisfactory answer, years after first asking it. Maybe you can do better than others, but I doubt it.
 
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FineLinen

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Nothing in the Bible says cities get resurrected and nothing says the the wicked die and come back as saints.

The Divine Equation =

Adam 1 = "the many made sinners."

The other side of the Equation = the identical many "made righteous" in the Last Adam.

Every last broken lost sinner "made righteous." The radical all.
 
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ClementofA

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Until you read the text.

Rev 14
“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever;"

If you are suggesting we bend-wrench that text into 'divine incense" you have more eisegesis in your blood stream than a great many souls on planet earth :) ... so to speak.

The munge that tries to get "tormented with fire and brimstone" to transmogrify into "tormented with divine incense" -- requires way too much imagination for me and ignores soooo many details it boggles the mind.


Here is the literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear:

Revelation 14:11 Interlinear: and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

And another more literal translation than yours:

Young's Literal Translation
and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name.

Scripture also speaks of night being "no more". So can "day and night" be forever?

For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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ClementofA

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Nothing in the Bible says cities get resurrected and nothing says the the wicked die and come back as saints.

There is no history or promise that we see in the Bible for Sodom rebuilt or for the wicked who died in Sodom restored into paradise.

They are said to condemn other folks at the resurrection of the wicked - the second resurrection in Rev 20 -- but that is not the same as "paradise" or living in the New Earth.

Only after all the wicked are destroyed "Both body and soul" Matt 10:28 in the lake of fire event in Rev 20 do we find the Rev 21 statement "no more crying... no more tears".

There's no mention of "eternal punishment" in Mt.10:28 or anywhere else in the Scriptures.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God "can" destroy. That doesn't mean He will. Nor does "destroy" mean endless annihilation.

In the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar lost his soul when God made him act insanely like an animal for 7 years. God's destruction/ruining of the kings' soul meant the loss of his soul for the king.

Likewise the prodigal son "lost" (same Greek word as "destroyed" in Mt.10:28) his soul when he left his father for the world. Later when he "came back to his senses", he "found" his soul. His Father said his son was "dead" and "lost" (i.e. destroyed). Though he was obviously never annihilated.

How is it that God is "able" to destroy body & soul in Gehenna. Supposedly if angels cast people into it, that in itself could destroy their mortal bodies, due to the fires in Gehenna. But how would literal fire destroy a non corporeal soul? If Satan & demons are there to possess people, just casting them into Gehenna could result in them being spiritually & psychologically destroyed/ruined in a multitude of ways we cannot even imagine, e.g. demon possession. I'm sure that experienced shrinks have a bit of an idea of what that might involve. Or deliverance ministers/exorcists.

Not only is God "able" to destroy [or ruin, lose] both body and soul...Jesus followers are told they must destroy their own souls to "find" them:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

Mt.10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.

Others can kill your body, but not your soul. God can destroy soul and body in Gehenna. v.28

You can destroy your own soul. v.39...that is, ruin it.

By speaking of destroying your own soul, v.39 refers not to endless annihilation of your soul. So, in context, neither does verse 28 when God speaks of destroying a soul.

If you don't willingly destroy your soul (v.39) in this life, God will/is able to do it for you in the afterlife (v.28). But whether He does it for you or not, you will surely destroy your own soul by "finding" it (v.39) in this life. Since you destroy [but not annihilate] your own soul by finding it, why would God need to destroy it again, even though He is "able"? Though it is conceivable He could destroy it to a greater degree than it was destroyed before. Especially if people in Gehenna continued to rebel and harden themselves...cf Lk.11:26; Mt.12:45...7 times worse can occur. Scripture speaks of evil men shall becoming worse and worse, of the deep things of satan some have known, being possessed with a legion of demons, & few and many stripes (Lk.12:47-48).

What does it mean that God "can" ruin or destroy a soul in Gehenna? Would this be ruin as in cessation of existence or something like a spiritual death as in, for example, dead in sins (Eph.2:1)? Or as in what God did to the king in the book of Daniel in making him act like an animal for 7 years, before returning his soul back to sanity, resulting in him being humbled & worshiping God? Or, as in being delivered to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20)? BTW, Satan will be there in the LOF with human blasphemers.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme (1 Tim.1:20).

Even in this life one can be delivered to Satan for destruction that one may be saved:

1 Cor.5:5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

Of course the spiritually dead are already dead in sins. But this does not preclude there being various degrees of spiritual deadness or destruction (i.e. ruin) of their souls. Similarly the Scriptures speak of those who are worthy of few stripes & others who are worthy of many stripes, & similarly. Surely a distinction is to be made between a relatively innocent infant or child, a rebellious teenager & those who have apostacized from the faith, or demons & Satan. It is conceivable that it is always possible for the spiritually dead to experience greater degrees of destruction to their souls should they continue to rebel in the LOF and until they finally repent. Though, ever given the choice to turn to God, it is mathematically impossible that they would continue to reject God for eternity.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

A building that is "destroyed" is not annihilated forever or even annihilated. It is ruined. Then it can be rebuilt, restored or repaired. Like the fixing of a car engine:

"When shopping for a used car, one of the kinds of vehicles that buyers may come across is rebuilt cars. While there are slight variations from state to state, rebuilt cars are cars that have been, through accident or other means, totaled and repaired or rebuilt from the ground up."

As to the meaning of the word "destroy", Websters' first definition is "ruin" and second definition is to "put out of existence":

Definition of DESTROY

A common definition of "destroy":

"ruin (someone) emotionally or spiritually.
"he has been determined to destroy her" "

The same Greek word at Mt.10:28 for "destroy" is used of the "lost" [destroyed, ruined, damaged] prodigal son who was later found, who was said to be dead, but later became alive.

The same Greek word is used later in Mt.10:

Mt.10:39 He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. clv

By speaking of "destroying" our own "soul" [v.39] did Jesus mean we could annihilate it out of existence? Evidently not. So why should we think He meant annihilation of the soul earlier in the context [v.28] when speaking of the exact same thing, i.e. a soul being destroyed?

A passage in Matthew that has been interpreted as speaking of the possibility of release from "hell" (Gehenna) is:

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

This is spoken of by Jesus in the context of references to Gehenna, both before and after this passage.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

Matthew was probably written to Jews & in the opening chapter of this book he told his readers that Jesus shall save His people from their sins (1:21), i.e. His people Israel (2:6). I take that to include people like Judas Iscariot & wicked Pharisees who died in their sins. But lest anyone think that is a licence to live sinfully, Jesus gives warnings such as those in Mt.10:28.
 
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BobRyan

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There's no mention of "eternal punishment" in Mt.10:28

True - it just says that God "destroys BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" - which is that Lake of Fire even of Rev 20.

The "torment" part that happens in that destruction can be seen in Rev 14:
Rev 14
“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever;"

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

agreed.

God "can" destroy. That doesn't mean He will.

"God is ABLE to keep you from stumbling" is not an empty statement about "able but does not mean he will".

It completely destroys the force of all those sorts of statements to insert "means nothing ... will never happen" into it.

watch what happens when that is inserted.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell - but would never do it...so... never mind .. how about ..."

Nor does "destroy" mean endless annihilation.

2 Peter 2:6 "destroy by reducing them to ashes"

2 Peter 2
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes,
 
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