The Father, Son, Holy Spirit = One

[davidoffinland]

From Finland.

So what do we have after 80 posts and what can we learn about this as the "Three in One". Here it goes:

1. ONENESS THEOLOGY. They believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are the same God with no distinction in person or being. The one God simply manifest himself in these three ways and /or at different times.

2. TRINITARIAN THEOLOGY. They believe that there is one God made up of 3 separate and distinct persons of but one indivisibe essence. These 3 persons existed from eternity, and are equal in power and substance. They are known as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The undivided essence of God belongs equally to each of the 3 persons. The Church confeses the Triity to be a mystery beyond the comprehension of man.

3.ARIAN THEOLOGY. They believe that there is one God, and that God is one. That God is called the Heavenly Father. That there is one Lord who is not God, Jesus Christ, who is the son of God. And they believe that the Holy Spirit is the influence of God´s power. The Father and Son are separate beings and the Father is superior in power, wisdom and authority. Jesus is God´s express image and was given all power on heaven and earth.

4. UNITARIAN THEOLOGY. (Do not confuse this with the modern day liiberal unitarians) They believe that there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ. Jesus became God´s son at his birth on earth but did not expist previously. The holy Spirit is God´s power.

There you have it!

To do some more cut ´n slicing and paste-ing, I would like to suggest that one should go into pre-christian study to find out how and where these influences have come into biblical thinking, i.e...Jewish, hellentistic Jewish thought, kabbalah, Gnosticism, etc..these and others have one way or another syngeristically influenced scriptural interpretation. Perhaps, now-a-days, tradition has replaced scriptures to the point of blurring what scripture actually says. At least this and the above are something to think about.

David.

 

[Mark Downham]

The Trinity are one in nature.

 

[zaire]

I believe in the trinity.

Jesus is God. For the person who didnt think Jesus is God:

Mark 2:5-12 Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?

John 19:7 The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."

Revelation 22:3 "And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servants shall serve Him."

 

[Adammi]

What was the point of the OP?

 

[YTY]

God and Jesus are ONE so why does Jesus say that only his Father can do certain things? (Such as the part in Matthew where Jesus says it is not for him to decide who sits beside him in the Kingdom of Heaven but for God) I'm so confused about this....

Mayerpod, God and Jesus are indeed one, but at the same time distinct. (By 'God' I refer to God the Father.) Jesus is one with the Father but Jesus is not the Father. Jesus possessed all the attributes of deity, and yet He related to God the Father as a Servant. Consider Philippians 2: 5-7: Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant. Jesus chose to serve His Father, and to recognise the Father as greater than He. There were things which Jesus defered to His Father; He leaves certain things to God the Father to decide, and chooses to reveal what He wills. But becoming a Servant to the Father and honouring the Father does not make Jesus 'less' than what the Father is; the Father and the Son are coequal and coeternal, and the Son honours the Father even as the Father honours the Son, and this has been from eternity and will continue forever. There is indeed deep mystery here, but such is the revelation of the nature of God that we see in the New Testament. Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is one with God the Father and the Holy Spirit, and hence when Christ is the object of our worship, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are worshipped and honoured.

YTY

 

[Thomas Spivey]

The Best analegy I herd concerning the trinity is the comparsion of time Past, Present and Future, there all Time, you could not have one without the other two... the Best Old Testment V. Gen. 1-26 When God comes around to creating man He says " Let Us make Man in our image,after our likeness" ask your self Who is God Talking to ??? It's the Trinty in Harmoney Deciding togeather as ONE to make Man in His Image... We are created triune... Body, Soul, & Sprit you can not seperate one from the other.... K.I.S. Believer

 

[Thomas Spivey]

Alright - lest start with 1 John 5:7,8 For there are three that bear witness "in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth:" the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

Look in your margin, it says: between 'in heaven' and 'on earth' is not found in ANY Greek manuscripts before the sixteenth century. so scrap it, read it again

1 John 5:7,8 For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.

There is not enough left to say that the Holy Spirit is it's own personality. Nowhere in the bible does it say that there are "three" members of the Godhead. There are two personalities in the plural Godhead called "God" [430. 'elohiym, el-o-heem'; plur] Their Holy Spirit is what God is made of, their power and essense. God the Father and the Son have their own distinct personalities and will's - 'thy will be done', 'the will of My Father in heaven', 'never the less, not My will but Yours be done' Gods Holy Spirit is not it's own person with it's own will - only that of God Himself.

Notice 2 John 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have 'God'. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has 'both' the Father and the Son.

If there were three COEQUAL members of 'God' what a insult that verse would be.

Some of the most complelling evidence is just that of history itself! When you learn of the carnal men that sat around the table for many decades debating all forms of popular philosphy deciding how to explain 'God and His Spirit' and what to call it? Oh lets barrow the popular pagan beliefs of the three-in-one god and hence call it by a totally unbiblical word implying 3 - trinity - and that will go nicely with the other things we have created to satisfy the pagan converts like christmas and easter!

What is so obviously void from modern christianity is the knowledge that satan has decieved the whole world - he has twisted EVERY SINGLE truth to some degree or another over the centuries to get people off track. This is just another one of them.

When one has the Holy Spirit it is Christ dwelling in them by and through HIS [Holy] Spirit.

Rev. 22-19 says" And if any man take away from the words of this prophecy. God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city, and from the things whitch are written in this book".K.J.V.... So I would suggest that you be real carefull about what you are removing or adding to the Gods Book.....

 

[Grl4Christ987]

I don't know if this has been said (there's a lot of pages here) but the first indication of the Trinity is Genesis 1:26--And God said, "Let Us make man in Our image...." (NIV)

 

[Keith Van Horn]

yo

 

[Keith Van Horn]

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

_____And of course the finite, limited in time and space, fallible, three dogs and three people you mentioned have all the characteristics of God and therefore whatever physical and temporal limitations apply to them must be applied to the infinite, infallible, unlimited, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God. A dog or a person can only exist in one place at one time so according to your example God is also limited in space and time.
_____Do you have any responses that are half way reasonable or logical?

calm down oldshepherd, can people not ask questions without getting slammed?

 

[KagomeShuko]

The Best analegy I herd concerning the trinity is the comparsion of time Past, Present and Future, there all Time, you could not have one without the other two... the Best Old Testment V. Gen. 1-26 When God comes around to creating man He says " Let Us make Man in our image,after our likeness" ask your self Who is God Talking to ??? It's the Trinty in Harmoney Deciding togeather as ONE to make Man in His Image... We are created triune... Body, Soul, & Sprit you can not seperate one from the other.... K.I.S. Believer

If I may:
http://www.christianforums.com/t1140865-trinity-study.html&page=5

The best analogy I've heard is H2O (or "water") - solid (ice), liquid (water), and gas (steam), but all can exist at the same time - same substance, different things.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[Inspector Gadget]

Since you brought this up, I thought I would share something I got out of a discussion in class.

Most people think of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as 3 separate entities....1 + 1 + 1 + = 3.

But, that's not the case. 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

*shrugs* Just thought I would share.

As and Engineer I understand Mathematics quite well. Your Math here is totally wrong.

If you say, 1 x 1 x 1 = 1 then you also have to say that God is one PERSON which is wrong in Trinitarian doctrine. The doctrine of the Trinity insists that God is NOT one person but three persons. It is a basic multiplication rule that your units be consistent. Otherwise, your whole proposition is senseless. You can''t multiply apples by oranges nor can you multiply apples by apples and come up with oranges for an answer.

1 person x 1 person x 1 person = 1 person is true mathematically but false in Trinitarian doctrine.

1 person x 1 person x 1 person = 1 divine being is true doctrinally but false mathematically

 

[Inspector Gadget]

If I may:
http://www.christianforums.com/t1140865-trinity-study.html&page=5

The best analogy I've heard is H2O (or "water") - solid (ice), liquid (water), and gas (steam), but all can exist at the same time - same substance, different things.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

The would not amount to Trinitarian doctrine but Modalism, which is considered a heresy by Trinitarians.

 

[Inspector Gadget]

I don't know if this has been said (there's a lot of pages here) but the first indication of the Trinity is Genesis 1:26--And God said, "Let Us make man in Our image...." (NIV)

1. There is no indication that the US is 3 persons and no more and no less.

2. There is no indication of the identity of the individuals who belong tothe group "Us/Our."

3. There is no indication that the US is to be identified as Elohim (God). This could just as easily be a case of God belonging to another group and speaking on behalf of that group.

Presuming that this is a reference to the Trinity is to read extraneous notions back into the Bible - eisegesis - a big nono.

 

[truthcounsellor]

Ed, like I said, I've dealth with you for the better part of a year. You don't want to accept God's word, so I've shaken the dust off my feet. Jesus is God, I know that, Trinity is Who God is. that is the truth, pure and simple. You'll find out when you die. Only then will you accept the truth.

I have yet to learn of (much less meet) anyone who honestly and genuinely understands the Trinity, and I'm no "spring chick." While some have supposed and even claimed that it is "an issue of salvation," it seems that most have either abandoned or never adopted that particular dogma. Which, leads us to the next logical and reasonable question.

If it is agreed that this is not an issue of salvation (or if any would contend that it surely is, then I would kindly ask them to openly explain from the scriptures why they believe that to be true), then exactly how and/or in what ways does it benefit anyone to believe it? Does it really help any man to better understand the nature and working of either God or Jesus Christ in some way that no other explanation possibly can?

I have yet to see that it does. And, if what might be "added to" our understanding of God (and/or Christ) is in doubt, let me assure you that there is MUCH to communciate regarding the similar, yet different, natures of both God and the Lord Jesus Christ that is greatly confused in many people's minds by some "three in one" formula that evidently NO ONE seems to be able to adequately understand and explain.

TC

 

[KagomeShuko]

The would not amount to Trinitarian doctrine but Modalism, which is considered a heresy by Trinitarians.

No, you are overexaggerating the example I am using.

This is modalism:

The Monarchians properly so-called (Modalists) exaggerated the oneness of the Father and the Son so as to make them but one Person; thus the distinctions in the Holy Trinity are energies or modes, not Persons: God the Father appears on earth as Son; hence it seemed to their opponents that Monarchians made the Father suffer and die. In the West they were called Patripassians, whereas in the East they are usually called Sabellians. The first to visit Rome was probably Praxeas, who went on to Carthage some time before 206-208; but he was apparently not in reality a heresiarch, and the arguments refuted by Tertullian somewhat later in his book "Adversus Praxean" are doubtless those of the Roman Monarchians (see PRAXEAS).

I'm saying that H2O is one thing and there is ONE God.

However, ice is not water which is not steam which is not ice.

Just like the Father is not the Son, who is not the Spirit, who is not the Father.

Three different entities, one God.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[Dmckay]

~~Truth~~

As you have stated your analogy was indeed a very bad one. Primarily, because we humans are made with three different components, body, soul, and spirit. As opposed to other animals, who only have body and soul. As you have stated we do have the Spirit of God. Something must happen to water in order to be changed into steam or ice. However, The Spirit of God NEVER changes, Jesus NEVER changes nor God the Father NEVER changes.

I will refer you to a verse in the Bible---1John 5:7 For there are three that bare record in heaven, The Father, The Word, and The Holy Spirit: and these three are one. And there are three that bare witness in earth, The Spirit, and the Water, and The Blood: and these three are one.

Modern Bibles do not have this verse. However, it is in the Old Latin text. In addition to that there are Greek Minuscules Manuscripts 88 (12th century,) 629 (14th century,) and 635 (11th century.) That do have this verse.

I have to ask you a question that is really bothering me. If you are a Christian, how come you do not believe in the Trinity?

PS--You must be aware that in Genesis, many times where you see the English word God, that in the Hebrew it is Elohim, which is in the plural. If it was a singular word, like God, then it would be El. Which indicates that there are more than one person in the Word, Elohim.

First let me state that I firmly believe in the Triune Godhead of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But, I have to say something about using 1 John 5:7 to support this doctrine. As you stated it isn't found in Modern Bibles. For a good reason. The Catholic church came to Erasmus as he was writing his Greek text and insisted that it be included to support the Catholic Chhurch's position on the Trinity. He refused. They put pressure on him, and he responded that if they could provide him but one Greek text with this verse in it he would include it. They returned a short time later with a Greek manuscript that included the verse. The ink on the manuscript was still wet. But since he had stated that if they provided but a single source text, he would include it, he included it.

Virtually everyone who has done any studying of textual criticism is aware of this story and it's historicity. By citing this passage to support the Trinity you actually weaken your position. I have seen young preachers up for ordination do exactly that when questioned about the Trinity.

You also asked how someone could be a Christian and NOT believe in the Trinity. This individual is probably a member of the Oneness Pentecostal Movement. Their views on the Godhead would make them more of a pseudo-Christian sect or Cult.

 

[Thomas Spivey]

The real Aregument here isn't the Trinity, its the Diety of JESUS CHRIST. Just a sinless man? Or the one and only true GOD in the flesh ? Well I choose to believe and will live on because I Believe That JESUS CHRIST infact is the one and only true GOD in the flesh... For those of you that choose to believe he was just a sinless man ,or just a great person, I asure you he is indeed much! much! more! then just a man...If you haven't got this Stright yet You need to step away from your regelious understandings of the Bible and get closer to the auther and finisher of our faith Hebrews 12:2 and let the Holy Ghost Teach you who JESUS realy is.. John 14:26 read the first fue virses in John 1:1-3 see where it says" the word was GOD" ? You see JESUS is the word of GOD... There is much more proof That JESUS is GOD as much as GOD is GOD John 5:23 you see you have to let The Holy Ghost Teach you this I can't... And as you read the Bible you see where many people Worshiped Jesus . He never told them not to.. Even the Angels would forbid People to Worship them, They would always say" Worship GOD ",Read Rev.22:8&9 and in the Book of Acts they tried to worship and make gods out them ,and they rent there clothing and said no don't do this... Read Acts 14:11-15 OK for now K.I.S. Beliver

 

[KagomeShuko]

The real Aregument here isn't the Trinity, its the Diety of JESUS CHRIST. Just a sinless man? Or the one and only true GOD in the flesh ? Well I choose to believe and will live on because I Believe That JESUS CHRIST infact is the one and only true GOD in the flesh... For those of you that choose to believe he was just a sinless man ,or just a great person, I asure you he is indeed much! much! more! then just a man...If you haven't got this Stright yet You need to step away from you regelious understandings of the Bible and get closer to the auther and finisher of our faith Hebrews 12:2 and let the Holy Ghost Teach you who JESUS realy is.. John 14:26 read the first fue virses in John 1:1-3 see where it says" the word was GOD" ? You see JESUS is the word of GOD... There is much more proof That JESUS is GOD as much as GOD is GOD John 5:23 you see you have to let The Holy Ghost Teach you this I can't... And as you read the Bible you see where many people Worshiped Jesus . He never told them not to.. Even the angles forbid People to Worship, and in the Book of Acts they tried to worship and make gods out them ,and they rent there clothing and said no don't so this... OK for now K.I.S. Beliver

Jesus is fully God and fully man.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

 

[Thomas Spivey]

The real Aregument here isn't the Trinity, its the Diety of JESUS CHRIST. Just a sinless man? Or the one and only true GOD in the flesh ? Well I choose to believe and will live on because I Believe That JESUS CHRIST infact is the one and only true GOD in the flesh... For those of you that choose to believe he was just a sinless man ,or just a great person, I asure you he is indeed much! much! more! then just a man...If you haven't got this Stright yet You need to step away from you regelious understandings of the Bible and get closer to the auther and finisher of our faith Hebrews 12:2 and let the Holy Ghost Teach you who JESUS realy is.. John 14:26 read the first fue virses in John 1:1-3 see where it says" the word was GOD" ? You see JESUS is the word of GOD... There is much more proof That JESUS is GOD as much as GOD is GOD John 5:23 you see you have to let The Holy Ghost Teach you this I can't... And as you read the Bible you see where many people Worshiped Jesus . He never told them not to.. Even the Angles would forbid People to Worship them, They would always say" Worship GOD ", and in the Book of Acts they tried to worship and make gods out them ,and they rent there clothing and said no don't do this. Read the 14th chapter in the book of Acts... And Even JESUS when HE was tempted of the devil, Said " thou shalt Worship the LORD thy GOD and Him only Shalt thou serve" Matt. 4:10...OK for now K.I.S. Beliver

Ok to the People that believe JESUS was just a very great man,or a great prophet.or great angel, ect. ect. He was indeed... and Much! Much! More. He was indeed a Very great humble man, the greatest of all Messengers, and a Prophet of Prophet ... But Don't stop there...The List goes on and on. The Greater you allow JESUS to become in your life, the more you honour the Father-John 5:23... Only the Holy Ghost can teach you this - John 14:26 .... Ok K.I.S. Beliver