The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Oldmantook]

The Ten Commandments are a subset of the law and defined as the old covenant. We are neither under the old covenant, nor under the law. And specifically, the Ten Commandments are a set of Ten. It's an all or nothing proposition. You can't choose which ones you want and dismiss the rest. The inclusion of the Sabbath commandment means it is not for us. The Ten Commandments were given to the Israelites alone through Moses. Anyway, God has given us a conscience to understand right from wrong.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Indeed all or nothing. Thus just read the scriptures which state that Jesus kept the Sabbath, Paul kept the Sabbath and the Gentile converts/seekers, as well as the Jews after Jesus' resurrection also kept the Sabbath. You can search the scriptures for yourself. Tell me what you find. Or I can come up with examples when I have more time.
Also ask yourself if we are no longer under the Sabbath, why does Isa 66:22-23 say this?
22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow before me,” says the Lord.

Rom 2:14-15
The requirements of the law do not pass away just because they are written on some of the hearts of gentiles. After all, some gentiles are exceedingly wicked are they not? One's conscience needs to conform to the law. If the law no longer exists, then one's conscience is free to conform to anything anyone desires.

 

[Der Alte]

You're big on the findings of modern medicine. Bet I can find some studies that say otherwise.

Nope. You might find something of some sketchy website.

It's not nonsense heterodox personal testimony der Alter, it is a thumbnail summary of the relevant parts of the story.

Not any Bible I ever read.

If they're tormented forever, it's not death, is it? In fact, death is thrown into the lake of fire, so ask yourself this - what can kill death? The answer dear Watson is elementary: LIFE. As in 'In him was life', 'the way the truth and the life', 'God of the living', and on it goes. The fire is the presence of God to destroy sin and death.

When people die do they cease to exist or are they resurrected? "The lake of fire is the second death" and "the second death is the lake of fire." But not one vs. in Rev. says anyone/any thing is thrown into the LOF then they die.
Death is the point in time end of life. It has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown or die. "Hell" if it refers to the place of the wicked can be thrown but since it is not a living thing it cannot literally die. If "hell" refers to the grave those are holes in the ground which cannot be thrown or die. There is a scriptural answer without conjuring up figurative language. There is a death and hell which can be literally thrown. I refer to them as the angel of death and the demon of hell. Note they are referred to with personal pronouns "his,""him," and "them."

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.​

When death, the angel of death, and hell, the demon of hell, are thrown into the lake of fire their power to kill is destroyed.

 

[Der Alte]

Nope.

Look it up in a dictionary instead of making up your own definitions.

There is no parallel in religion or humanity that torture is the correct response for sin or crime. When you sin, there are consequences that are irreversible.
These are the "punishments" referred to. Also, "Hell" is not in the future. "Hell" is referred to in the active tense. Sinners are currently in Hell until judgment day. They are tormented by their choice.
Perfected love casts out tormenting fear (2851 /kólasis)

"Hell" is a noun. nouns have no tense. That there is "no parallel in religion or humanity that torture is the correct response for sin or crime." is not relevant. God is not constrained by our human reasoning or sensibilities.

 

[Oldmantook]

Your comment about BDAG being my Bible is rubbish! Unlike you and other UR-ites I believe in trying to find the best definition of words. I deal with other languages daily. My wife is Korean, I speak some Korean on a daily basis. A few days ago she was watching a Korean news program and she said "I don't know what 'tahn haek' means." I looked at the TV Korean news people were talking about an American news program which showed a picture of Trump with a sub heading "Trump Impeachment" underneath that was 트럼프 탄핵 which I could read. Trump's name written phonetically in Korean 트럼프 and the word "tahn haek." So I told my wife 탄핵 means "Trump impeachment."
Yesterday two German ladies came to my Bible study. One spoke English, one didn't. So I had to speak English and German.
A lot of empty words but no, zero, none evidence. I concede that some Jews believed in and were waiting for a millenium but I know beyond all doubt not all Jews held that belief. E.g. why were the Sadducees sad? Your unsupported opinion is not evidence against anything I said.
I am still waiting for credible, verifiable, historical evidence that BDAG is wrong vs. your assumptions.

I don't really care if you speak ten languages. The BDAG is your Bible as you give so much credence to it in your replies despite what Scripture states. I plainly showed you in my last reply that in the 3rd Edition, p.33, the BDAG describes aionios as "a period of enduring duration, without end" in reference to Matt 25:46. Problem with your revered scholars is that Matt 25:46 does not refer to a period of enduring duration. This verse refers to the millennial kingdom which lasts for 1,000 years - NOT WITHOUT END. You failed to reply or even acknowledge what I wrote. Care to reply now as I refuted your belief based on the writings of you own esteemed scholars no less?

Wrong! I have never read nor quoted Augustine. Next false assumption? But someone in this forum was throwing Origen in my face about how he was supposedly the best Bible exegete who ever lived. That is why I bought Origen's "Commentary of John." for about $60, to read for myself what Origen actually said.

That is why you are ignorant about Augustine since you never read him. Ignorance is not bliss.

Wrong! I assumed nothing. I provided evidence from the UR poster boy, Origen, that "aionios life" never perishes, 2x, remains, is not taken away and is not consumed. I'm not the one displaying ignorance. Don't you just hate it when your assumptions/presuppositions are proven wrong with historical evidence.

Don't you just hate it when your expertise in forming logical fallacies is repeatedly exposed? Of course ainios life is never taken away and consumed. No more so then if a man possesses a $100 bill, then spends or loses it. The $100 still remains as a $100 bill whether or not the man possesses it. You should have taking Philosophy 101 which would have taught you logic.

You are merely repeating what I already said. My point was the one lost sheep parable is not a proof text for proselytizing the unsaved.

We agree on that point. However, correct me if I'm wrong but don't you believe in eternal security which this passage regarding the lost sheep refutes. But that's a whole other topic.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't really care if you speak ten languages. The BDAG is your Bible as you give so much credence to it in your replies despite what Scripture states. I plainly showed you in my last reply that in the 3rd Edition, p.33, the BDAG describes aionios as "a period of enduring duration, without end" in reference to Matt 25:46. Problem with your revered scholars is that Matt 25:46 does not refer to a period of enduring duration. This verse refers to the millennial kingdom which lasts for 1,000 years - NOT WITHOUT END. You failed to reply or even acknowledge what I wrote. Care to reply now as I refuted your belief based on the writings of you own esteemed scholars no less?

Nonsense! You have shown me nothing but your assumptions/presuppositions and biases. That there might have been a belief in a millennium kingdom in Israel at the time of Jesus is NOT evidence that Jesus was referring to such a belief or that His audience understood Jesus words referred to such a kingdom in Matt 25:46 since Jesus defined "aionios" as eternal 9 times.

That is why you are ignorant about Augustine since you never read him. Ignorance is not bliss.

Is Augustine your Bible? Why should I know anything about Augustine?

Don't you just hate it when your expertise in forming logical fallacies is repeatedly exposed? Of course ainios life is never taken away and consumed. No more so then if a man possesses a $100 bill, then spends or loses it. The $100 still remains as a $100 bill whether or not the man possesses it. You should have taking Philosophy 101 which would have taught you logic.

You have exposed nothing and I doubt you ever will. You don't even know what a logical fallacy is. Most of this is meaningless prattle.
You say "Of course ainios life is never taken away and consumed. No more so then if a man possesses a $100 bill, then spends or loses it. The $100 still remains as a $100 bill whether or not the man possesses it." Is this supposed to make any sense? If a man loses a $100 bill it is taken away. The question is not does the $100 bill exist somewhere else. The man no longer has it.
If "aionios" life is taken away from someone it does not exist somewhere else.

We agree on that point. However, correct me if I'm wrong but don't you believe in eternal security which this passage regarding the lost sheep refutes. But that's a whole other topic.

Origen defining "aionios."

And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.[2]​

Jesus defining "aionios."

John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death." ​

According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity.
.....This is how scholars determine the meaning of words, how they are defined by native speakers of the language. I gave you an example with the Korean word "tahn haek" yesterday. Here's another one for you. In '59 in Germany I was supervising Greek workers one of them pointed at a table and said "trapeze," pronounced "trahpaezee" I learned my first Greek word.

 

[Saint Steven]

Indeed all or nothing. Thus just read the scriptures which state that Jesus kept the Sabbath, Paul kept the Sabbath and the Gentile converts/seekers, as well as the Jews after Jesus' resurrection also kept the Sabbath. You can search the scriptures for yourself. Tell me what you find. Or I can come up with examples when I have more time.
Also ask yourself if we are no longer under the Sabbath, why does Isa 66:22-23 say this?
22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow before me,” says the Lord.

Rom 2:14-15
The requirements of the law do not pass away just because they are written on some of the hearts of gentiles. After all, some gentiles are exceedingly wicked are they not? One's conscience needs to conform to the law. If the law no longer exists, then one's conscience is free to conform to anything anyone desires.

There are claims about all the Sabbath keepers in the NT, but I don't see that. Interesting that the claim has to be "following example" because there is no NT teaching commanding Sabbath observance.

Do you observe the New Moon festival?
Most Sabbatarians will claim that "From one New Moon to another" means month to month, but don't apply that to "from one Sabbath to another" which would mean from week to week.

If in fact EVERYONE is commanded to observe the Sabbath in the Millennium, I will comply. Until then, zero interest.

 

[Der Alte]

The sabbath was given exclusively to the children of Israel.

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Leviticus 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.​

 

[Der Alte]

Indeed all or nothing. Thus just read the scriptures which state that Jesus kept the Sabbath, Paul kept the Sabbath and the Gentile converts/seekers, as well as the Jews after Jesus' resurrection also kept the Sabbath. You can search the scriptures for yourself. Tell me what you find. Or I can come up with examples when I have more time....

I'd like to see a verse, 2 or more would be better, which clearly state that gentile converts were Sabbath keepers. There ain't none!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Nope. You might find something of some sketchy website.

When I got saved and discovered sulphur I started taking MSM. Who's to say?

Not any Bible I ever read.

Well, it's 'saved as through fire'. That's saved through immersion in the lake of fire. Don't think I'm making any great leaps of interpretation to get there.

There is a death and hell which can be literally thrown. I refer to them as the angel of death and the demon of hell. Note they are referred to with personal pronouns "his,""him," and "them."
Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.When death, the angel of death, and hell, the demon of hell, are thrown into the lake of fire their power to kill is destroyed.

Yes, I'm familiar with that little theory. First, who said that the horse riders are demons?

Secondly, how do you deal with these:

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. (Rev 20:13)

The last enemy that will be abolished is death. (1 Cor 15:26)

Seems to me that you're making an entirely groundless supposition of the nature of the horsemen, and then extending that assumption without any basis to the scriptures in question. Strikes me as a lot of work to avoid the bleeding obvious.

 

[Der Alte]

When I got saved and discovered sulphur I started taking MSM. Who's to say?

I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Well, it's 'saved as through fire'. That's saved through immersion in the lake of fire. Don't think I'm making any great leaps of interpretation to get there.

Do you even know where the phrase "saved as by fire" comes from? That is a favorite of UR-ites. It has nothing to do with the lake of fire.

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
(9) For we [Paul and the Christians at Corinth] are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

"Any man,""every man,""no man" in this passage refers only to "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building." vs.9, who build on the foundation of Christ vss. 10 and 11, NOT all mankind. The work will be tried and revealed by fire vs. 13, NOT the man. If the works is burned it will be lost but the man will be saved NOT by fire but "so as by fire." vs. 15.
This passage does not support UR because vs. 17 says that anyone who defiles the temple of God will be destroyed NOT saved.

Yes, I'm familiar with that little theory. First, who said that the horse riders are demons?

Irrelevant. The "death" on the horse and the "hell" that follows with him are sentient beings and referred to with personal pronouns "him,""his,""them."

Secondly, how do you deal with these:
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. (Rev 20:13)
The last enemy that will be abolished is death. (1 Cor 15:26)
Seems to me that you're making an entirely groundless supposition of the nature of the horsemen, and then extending that assumption without any basis to the scriptures in question. Strikes me as a lot of work to avoid the bleeding obvious.

Rubbish. Let me know when you deal with the verses I quoted.

 

[Oldmantook]

Nonsense! You have shown me nothing but your assumptions/presuppositions and biases. That there might have been a belief in a millennium kingdom in Israel at the time of Jesus is NOT evidence that Jesus was referring to such a belief or that His audience understood Jesus words referred to such a kingdom in Matt 25:46 since Jesus defined "aionios" as eternal 9 times.

Is Augustine your Bible? Why should I know anything about Augustine?

You have exposed nothing and I doubt you ever will. You don't even know what a logical fallacy is. Most of this is meaningless prattle.
You say "Of course ainios life is never taken away and consumed. No more so then if a man possesses a $100 bill, then spends or loses it. The $100 still remains as a $100 bill whether or not the man possesses it." Is this supposed to make any sense? If a man loses a $100 bill it is taken away. The question is not does the $100 bill exist somewhere else. The man no longer has it.
If "aionios" life is taken away from someone it does not exist somewhere else.

Origen defining "aionios."

And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.[2]​

Jesus defining "aionios."

John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death." ​

According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity.
.....This is how scholars determine the meaning of words, how they are defined by native speakers of the language. I gave you an example with the Korean word "tahn haek" yesterday. Here's another one for you. In '59 in Germany I was supervising Greek workers one of them pointed at a table and said "trapeze," pronounced "trahpaezee" I learned my first Greek word.

You evade my questions and points since your would rather cling to your belief and instead continuously offer your pet list of proof-texts. I ask you again. I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia which states that the Jews were expecting their Messiah to to establish his earthly reign of peace for a duration of time - not eternity. You have not offered a scintilla of evidence contrary to that fact. Instead you have claimed ignorance. Ignorance is not a good defense. Prefer to change your tactic?

 

[Oldmantook]

I'd like to see a verse, 2 or more would be better, which clearly state that gentile converts were Sabbath keepers. There ain't none!

Acts 13:42,44; Acts 18:4

 

[Oldmantook]

There are claims about all the Sabbath keepers in the NT, but I don't see that. Interesting that the claim has to be "following example" because there is no NT teaching commanding Sabbath observance.

Do you observe the New Moon festival?
Most Sabbatarians will claim that from "From one New Moon to another" means month to month, but don't apply that to "from one Sabbath to another" which would mean from week to week.

If in fact EVERYONE is commanded to observe the Sabbath in the Millennium, I will comply. Until then, zero interest.

The 10 Commandments include the one which God commands to keep the Sabbath. I presume you keep the other nine.

 

[Der Alte]

Acts 13:42,44; Acts 18:4

Acts of the apostles 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. ​

Why did the supposedly Sabbath keepers gentiles have to wait until the Jews came out of the synagogue to ask Paul to preach to them the next Sabbath? And this is only one Sabbath.

Acts of the apostles 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.​

One Sabbath the gentiles came to hear this Jew preaching.

Acts of the apostles 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks. ​

Greek proselytes unless Jesus was lying.

Matthew 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Matthew 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mark 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.​

The 10 Commandments include the one which God commands to keep the Sabbath. I presume you keep the other nine.

The Sabbath was given exclusively to the children of Israel.

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Leviticus 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.​

 

[Der Alte]

You evade my questions and points since your would rather cling to your belief and instead continuously offer your pet list of proof-texts. I ask you again. I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia which states that the Jews were expecting their Messiah to to establish his earthly reign of peace for a duration of time - not eternity. You have not offered a scintilla of evidence contrary to that fact. Instead you have claimed ignorance. Ignorance is not a good defense. Prefer to change your tactic?

There might have been a belief in a millenium kingdom. You have NOT proved that Jesus was talking about a millenium kingdom or that His audience understood "aionios punishment" as referring to a millenium kingdom. And I have proved repeatedly that Jesus defined "aionios" as "eternal."
Everyone did not believe in a millenium kingdom. For the Sadduccees there was no resurrection thus no millenium kingdom.

Matthew 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
Mark 12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,​

 

[Oldmantook]

Nope; read your Bible. The Sabbath was certainly not given exclusively to Israel. The Sabbath was instituted before Israel.
In Mark 2:27 the article "ton" comes before "man" meaning "the man." Whom do you suppose the man refers to? "The Sabbath was made for the man...." The man likely refers to Adam who of course existed before the law and Israel.

Why did the gentiles supposedly Sabbath keepers have to wait until the Jews came out of the synagogue to ask Paul to preach to them the next Sabbath. And this is only one Sabbath.

Can't you read?
Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. Acts 18:4

 

[Oldmantook]

There might have been a belief in a millenium kingdom. You have NOT proved that Jesus was talking about a millenium kingdom or that His audience understood "aionios punishment" as referring to a millenium kingdom. And I have proved repeatedly that Jesus defined "aionios" as "eternal."
Everyone did not believe in a millenium kingdom. For the Sadduccees there was no resurrection thus no millenium kingdom.

Matthew 22:23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him,
Mark 12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,​

Really?? You have proven that aionios means eternal? The best proof-text that ECTs such as yourself offer is Matt 25:46. Unfortunately for you this verse refers to the Millennium - not eternity. It thus proves that aionios refers to an age of time - not eternal.

And why do you cite the Sadducees? They were the minority sect; i.e. minority belief. It is correct that they did not believe in the resurrection. But the Pharisees who consisted of the great majority certainly did believe in the resurrection. In Mark 12, Jesus himself corrects their incorrect teaching regarding no resurrection. So in other words, Jesus condemned them for not believing in the resurrection as do the Pharisees who correctly believed. Citing a minority belief which Jesus himself condemned certainly doesn't help your cause.

 

[Der Alte]

Really?? You have proven that aionios means eternal? The best proof-text that ECTs such as yourself offer is Matt 25:46. Unfortunately for you this verse refers to the Millennium - not eternity. It thus proves that aionios refers to an age of time - not eternal.

Wrong, as usual! Repeating your claim over and over and over does NOT prove it. Unlike you I provide scriptural evidence. You criticize my list but you haven't even tried to refute it.
Jesus defines “aionios.”

John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life. ​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death." ​

According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity.
Refute that amigo.

And why do you cite the Sadducees? They were the minority sect; i.e. minority belief. It is correct that they did not believe in the resurrection. But the Pharisees who consisted of the great majority certainly did believe in the resurrection. In Mark 12, Jesus himself corrects their incorrect teaching regarding no resurrection. So in other words, Jesus condemned them for not believing in the resurrection as do the Pharisees who correctly believed. Citing a minority belief which Jesus himself condemned certainly doesn't help your cause.

All irrelevant. Yes Jesus tried to correct some Sadducees about their non-belief in the resurrection. That does not mean they believed Him. And it certainly does not mean all Sadduccees suddenly started believing in the resurrection.
There were Jews in Israel who heard Jesus teach that did not believe in the resurrection thus they did not believe in a millenium kingdom. When Jesus taught "these shall go away into eternal punishment" the Sadduccees would not have thought "millenium kingdom." Jesus would have known that.

 

[Der Alte]

Nope; read your Bible. The Sabbath was certainly not given exclusively to Israel. The Sabbath was instituted before Israel.
In Mark 2:27 the article "ton" comes before "man" meaning "the man." Whom do you suppose the man refers to? "The Sabbath was made for the man...." The man likely refers to Adam who of course existed before the law and Israel.
Can't you read?
Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. Acts 18:4

Jews considered only Israelites to be men.
The Sabbath was given exclusively to the children of Israel.

Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
Leviticus 24:8 Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.​

 

[Saint Steven]

The 10 Commandments include the one which God commands to keep the Sabbath. I presume you keep the other nine.

No, I do not KEEP any of the Ten Commandments. It's an "all or nothing" set. IMHO
Since I am not under the law, I do not observe the law. None of it.

Just to be clear. That is not a license to sin.
And just because I have never murdered anyone, for example, doesn't mean I am KEEPING the TCs.