The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Saint Steven]

Careful, continue down that path you might find Jesus came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel and find yourself excluded from the purview of the Hebrew God's little tribal reunification project.

Jesus did say we will all be salted with fire. I think "all" means all.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Jesus did say we will all be salted with fire. I think "all" means all.

Well, wasn't he talking to the disciples implicitly about only those of the then remaining 2 tribes of Judah? And of course excluding the Jews, Pharisees and Sadducees? In fact, he was implicitly excluding everyone except a few local vessels made for mercy. Severely limited atonement. (It's just me, actually.)

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, wasn't he talking to the disciples implicitly about only those of the then remaining 2 tribes of Judah? And of course excluding the Jews, Pharisees and Sadducees? In fact, he was implicitly excluding everyone except a few local vessels made for mercy. Severely limited atonement. (It's just me, actually.)

That would be mighty convenient. Seems to apply to all of us.
Otherwise we need to rewrite verse 49 to read: You disciples will be salted with fire.

Mark 9:42-50
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.
50 “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other.”

 

[Shrewd Manager]

That would be mighty convenient. Seems to apply to all of us.
Otherwise we need to rewrite verse 49 to read: You disciples will be salted with fire.

Mark 9:42-50
“If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where
“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.’
49 Everyone will be salted with fire.
50 “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other.”

But don't the worms only eat the flesh of certain Judaic tribes? They're very fussy.

 

[Saint Steven]

But don't the worms only eat the flesh of certain Judaic tribes? They're very fussy.

Sounds kosher to me. - lol

 

[Saint Steven]

Sounds kosher to me. - lol

Reminds me of a couple of cannibal jokes.

Two cannibals were eating a clown.
One turns to the other and asks, "Does this taste funny to you?"

Two cannibals were eating a jazz musician.
One turns to the other and asks, "Does this taste funky to you?" ​

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I can see a cottage industry developing along that line, like the 'Confucius say' jokes.

 

[Saint Steven]

I can see a cottage industry developing along that line, like the 'Confucius say' jokes.

Interesting word choice. Like cottage cheese? (cheesy jokes)
Do you have that in Aussieland? (cottage cheese, I mean) I live next to the cheese state, Wisconsin. (cheese heads)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Interesting word choice. Like cottage cheese? (cheesy jokes)
Do you have that in Aussieland? (cottage cheese, I mean) I live next to the cheese state, Wisconsin. (cheese heads)

The cheese state is some claim to fame. We have cottage cheese here, but don't think it's very popular. Is the term 'cottage industry' not used in the good ol US of A?

 

[Saint Steven]

The cheese state is some claim to fame. We have cottage cheese here, but don't think it's very popular. Is the term 'cottage industry' not used in the good ol US of A?

Yes, the term "cottage industry" means any home business. Is that your understanding of the term?

 

[Saint Steven]

Ephesians 1:7-10
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

 

[Saint Steven]

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

 

[Saint Steven]

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

[Saint Steven]

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Saint Steven]

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes, the term "cottage industry" means any home business. Is that your understanding of the term?

Yes, I'd always understood to mean an industry that originates at home and grows out. But now I finally look it up, seems you have the more correct definition.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

There was no fiery lake for Moses. You should go work for the Democrats.

Ah, so Jesus introduced the gospel of everlasting punishment in a fiery hell, did he?

The gospel according to der Alter, or leaven of the Pharisees? Think you've been reading too much of the Talmud, chum.

 

[Der Alte]

Ah, so Jesus introduced the gospel of everlasting punishment in a fiery hell, did he?
The gospel according to der Alter, or leaven of the Pharisees? Think you've been reading too much of the Talmud, chum.

Perhaps you should pay more attention to what I write instead of trying to play gotcha. I said "There was no fiery lake for Moses." I have previously posted quotes from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encylopedia Judaica and the Talmud documenting that in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment and they called it both Ge Hinnom and Sheol.

 

[Qwertyui0p]

But ok to throw them kicking and screaming into a burning oven. Please don't tell us they freely chose that terrible fate. It's GOD SAVES, idk how much plainer His will could possibly be.

Hell is not a firey torture chamber. It's a place of eternal separation from God.

That's quite a claim from someone who thinks God will torment his enemies in fire and brimstone for all eternity with no hope of escape. Somehow that's not immoral?

We can be pretty certain that no one would choose by their own free will to remain in what you call hell when they can by their own free will choose to leave. How long would it take you to decide?

Jesus said that hell is real. Please explain how your moral sentiments are greater than his.

 

[FineLinen]

Hell is not a firey torture chamber. It's a place of eternal separation from God.
Jesus said that hell is real. Please explain how your moral sentiments are greater than his.

Dear Qwerty: There is no firey torture chamber. All four hells are real and ultimately come to a final close in the Lake of theion & theioo.

"eternal separation from God."

Your word for today is ta pante.

From Him ta pante comes, thru Him ta pante exists & in Him ta pante ends.