The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Saint Steven]

Nope; read your Bible. The Sabbath was certainly not given exclusively to Israel. The Sabbath was instituted before Israel.
In Mark 2:27 the article "ton" comes before "man" meaning "the man." Whom do you suppose the man refers to? "The Sabbath was made for the man...." The man likely refers to Adam who of course existed before the law and Israel.


Can't you read?
Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. Acts 18:4

Yes, the Sabbath was given exclusively to Israel. A sign only between them and God. Scriptures below.

Furthermore, there is no evidence of Sabbath-keeping prior to Exodus chapter sixteen.
The chapter in which the Sabbath was given to Israel as part of their manna collection week. Nowhere to be found prior to that. IMHO

Exodus 31:13
“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

Ezekiel 20:12
Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the Lord made them holy.

Ezekiel 20:20
Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the Lord your God.”

 

[Saint Steven]

Acts 13:42,44; Acts 18:4

This was evangelistic work, not law-keeping.

Acts 13:42
As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44
On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.

Acts 18:4
Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

 

[Qwertyui0p]

God hates an unequal measure. There's your explanation. Finite crimes cannot merit infinite punishment on any scale, as it would be infinitely unjust.

'First, we all know that the degree to which a person warrants punishment is not a function of the length of time it took to commit a crime... the degree of someone's just punishment is not a function hoe long it took to commit the deed; rather, it's a function of how severe the deed itself was. And that leads to the second point. What is the most heinous thing a person can do in this life? Most people... will say it's harming animals or destroying the environment or hurting another person. But they pale in light of the worst thing a person can do, which is to mock and dishonor and refuse to love the person that we owe absolutely everything to, which is out Creator, God himself. You have to understand that God is infinitly greater in his goodness, holiness, kindness, and justice than anyone else. To think that a person could go through their whole life constantly ignoring him, constantly mocking him by the way they choose to live without him, saying, 'I couldn't care less about what you put me here to do. I couldn't care less about your values or your Son's death for me. I'm going to ignore all that'-that's the ultimate sin. And the only punishment worthy of that is the ultimate punishment, which is everlasting separation from God.' - J.P. Moreland

 

[Saint Steven]

'First, we all know that the degree to which a person warrants punishment is not a function of the length of time it took to commit a crime... the degree of someone's just punishment is not a function hoe long it took to commit the deed; rather, it's a function of how severe the deed itself was. And that leads to the second point. What is the most heinous thing a person can do in this life? Most people... will say it's harming animals or destroying the environment or hurting another person. But they pale in light of the worst thing a person can do, which is to mock and dishonor and refuse to love the person that we owe absolutely everything to, which is out Creator, God himself. You have to understand that God is infinitly greater in his goodness, holiness, kindness, and justice than anyone else. To think that a person could go through their whole life constantly ignoring him, constantly mocking him by the way they choose to live without him, saying, 'I couldn't care less about what you put me here to do. I couldn't care less about your values or your Son's death for me. I'm going to ignore all that'-that's the ultimate sin. And the only punishment worthy of that is the ultimate punishment, which is everlasting separation from God.' - J.P. Moreland

That's ridiculous.
We all seem to understand what godly behavior is when someone mistreats us, or is indifferent. But somehow forget what the source of godly behavior is -- God.

And we all understand that if we lash out and take revenge that we are guilty of ungodly behavior. But when it comes to God, we excuse the unthinkable, claiming he can do whatever he wants (thus inferring that he is a tyrant), he is God after all, "What right has the pot to criticize the potter?"

And if what J.P. Moreland is saying is true, how could Jesus teach this in the scripture below with a straight face? Doesn't J.P. Moreland make God out to be worse than a pagan?

Matthew 5:46-48
If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Saint Steven]

Romans 5:6-8
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I don't have a clue what you are talking about.

That's apparently because you can't or won't do research. 3 letters into google and take a wild guess.

Do you even know where the phrase "saved as by fire" comes from? That is a favorite of UR-ites. It has nothing to do with the lake of fire.
1 Corinthians 3:9-17
(9) For we [Paul and the Christians at Corinth] are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
(11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
(12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
(13) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
(16) Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
(17) If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."Any man,""every man,""no man" in this passage refers only to "laborers together with God,""God's husbandry,""God's building." vs.9, who build on the foundation of Christ vss. 10 and 11, NOT all mankind. The work will be tried and revealed by fire vs. 13, NOT the man. If the works is burned it will be lost but the man will be saved NOT by fire but "so as by fire." vs. 15.
This passage does not support UR because vs. 17 says that anyone who defiles the temple of God will be destroyed NOT saved.

It's irrelevant as to whom Paul is talking to for these purposes. The fact is that he is attesting to the fact that there is a fire that saves. We've been through this before der Alter.

Irrelevant. The "death" on the horse and the "hell" that follows with him are sentient beings and referred to with personal pronouns "him,""his,""them."

"Them" is not necessarily a personal pronoun. Horsemen metaphors necessarily require personal pronouns to make the metaphor work. This doesn't mean anything.

And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations! "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED." (Rev 15:3-4)

Guess you won't be singing along. You're claiming this universalist prophecy is falsified a couple of chapters later, stymied by mass immolation.

 

[Der Alte]

...
It's irrelevant as to whom Paul is talking to for these purposes. The fact is that he is attesting to the fact that there is a fire that saves. We've been through this before der Alter....

Rubbish! Paul said nothing about a fire that saves. Only the work is tested by fire NOT the person and then only the work of laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building, 1 Cor 3:9 who build on the foundation of Christ vss. 11,12. They are not saved by the fire they are already saved when they work. You can twist the scripture all you want to but you can't make it say UR!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Rubbish! Paul said nothing about a fire that saves. Only the work is tested by fire NOT the person and then only the work of laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building, 1 Cor 3:9 who build on the foundation of Christ vss. 11,12. They are not saved by the fire they are already saved when they work. You can twist the scripture all you want to but you can't make it say UR!

1 Corinthians 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

Maybe I need better spectacles, I read 'saved, but as through fire'. Salvation here entails a hot destructive process. But the outcome is still salvation.

For everyone, der Alter, will be salted with fire, and salt is good. So let's keep firing each other up in the word, and be at peace with each other.

Is that feasible?

 

[Der Alte]

1 Corinthians 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.
Maybe I need better spectacles, I read 'saved, but as through fire'. Salvation here entails a hot destructive process. But the outcome is still salvation.
For everyone, der Alter, will be salted with fire, and salt is good. So let's keep firing each other up in the word, and be at peace with each other.
Is that feasible?

Jamming two unrelated verses together to support your assumptions/presuppositions.
Yes you do need better spectacles you ignore who Paul is talking to which I have repeated more than once 1 Cor 1;2 the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints 1 Cor 1;2, laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building. who builds on the foundation of Christ vss. 11,12 they are already saved.

1 Corinthians 3:13-15
(13) Every man's [see vs. 9] work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work [cf. vs. 9] of what sort it is.
(14) If any man's work [cf. vs. 9] abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
(15) If any man's work [cf. vs. 9] shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​

NOT saved by fire 'yet so as by fire." Their work may be burned but they survive.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

NOT saved by fire 'yet so as by fire." Their work may be burned but they survive.

Sing the song of Moses, der Alter: ALL THE NATIONS will worship before you O Lord. Their works burned up, but they'll be saved as through a fiery lake.

By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory. (Rev 21:24)

 

[Der Alte]

Sing the song of Moses, der Alter: ALL THE NATIONS will worship before you O Lord. Their works burned up, but they'll be saved as through a fiery lake.
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory. (Rev 21:24)

The heterodox scam. Slam two out-of-context disparate verses together to make their assumptions/presuppositions work. A little bit of Psalms 22:27 a little bit of Rev 21:24 and one can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to. There was no fiery lake for Moses. You should go work for the Democrats.

 

[Der Alte]

It's irrelevant as to whom Paul is talking to for these purposes. The fact is that he is attesting to the fact that there is a fire that saves. We've been through this before der Alter.[/QUOTE]

Rubbish.

"Them" is not necessarily a personal pronoun. Horsemen metaphors necessarily require personal pronouns to make the metaphor work. This doesn't mean anything.

They are sentient beings of some sort. They are given power, they go out and kill.

And they sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations! "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED." (Rev 15:3-4)
Guess you won't be singing along. You're claiming this universalist prophecy is falsified a couple of chapters later, stymied by mass immolation.

As I have to keep reminding you. Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting random verses out-of-context while ignoring verses which contradict your assumptions/presuppositions. Here's one of those passages you ignore which is after your proof-text.

Revelation 21:4-8
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Vs. 4 "no more death", vs. 5 "I make all things new," vs. 7 he that does not overcome shall not inherit all things. vs. 8 even after no more death, eight groups of people thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death and there is no more salvation mentioned after this.

 

[Qwertyui0p]

Romans 5:6-8
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Yes, Christ died for sinners. That's all of us. But not everyone will

1 Corinthians 3:15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.

Maybe I need better spectacles, I read 'saved, but as through fire'. Salvation here entails a hot destructive process. But the outcome is still salvation.

For everyone, der Alter, will be salted with fire, and salt is good. So let's keep firing each other up in the word, and be at peace with each other.

Is that feasible?

You need to read verses in their proper context. That verse is referring to a group of Christians and it doesn't say that it's talking about everyone.

 

[Qwertyui0p]

That's ridiculous.
We all seem to understand what godly behavior is when someone mistreats us, or is indifferent. But somehow forget what the source of godly behavior is -- God.

And we all understand that if we lash out and take revenge that we are guilty of ungodly behavior. But when it comes to God, we excuse the unthinkable, claiming he can do whatever he wants (thus inferring that he is a tyrant), he is God after all, "What right has the pot to criticize the potter?"

And if what J.P. Moreland is saying is true, how could Jesus teach this in the scripture below with a straight face? Doesn't J.P. Moreland make God out to be worse than a pagan?

Matthew 5:46-48
If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

It would be immoral of God to force everyone into Heaven against their free will.

 

[FineLinen]

It would be immoral of God to force everyone into Heaven against their free will.

Never fear Qwerty!

The entire heavens, earth and underworld ultimately bow in worship IN/EN the Name of Jesus Christ.

Every last one.

 

[FineLinen]

Yes, Christ died for sinners. That's all of us. But not everyone will
You need to read verses in their proper context. That verse is referring to a group of Christians and it doesn't say that it's talking about everyone.

Dear Querty: The proper context of Romans 5 =

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 5 - King James Version

 

[Saint Steven]

It would be immoral of God to force everyone into Heaven against their free will.

That's quite a claim from someone who thinks God will torment his enemies in fire and brimstone for all eternity with no hope of escape. Somehow that's not immoral?

We can be pretty certain that no one would choose by their own free will to remain in what you call hell when they can by their own free will choose to leave. How long would it take you to decide?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

It would be immoral of God to force everyone into Heaven against their free will.

But ok to throw them kicking and screaming into a burning oven. Please don't tell us they freely chose that terrible fate. It's GOD SAVES, idk how much plainer His will could possibly be.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Oh the mental gymnastics required to defend damnationism. Apparently we can't impute fatherly qualities to God, but you can impute morality to Him, but only to prevent Him from doing good. Smh.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes, Christ died for sinners. That's all of us. But not everyone will
You need to read verses in their proper context. That verse is referring to a group of Christians and it doesn't say that it's talking about everyone.

Careful, continue down that path you might find Jesus came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel and find yourself excluded from the purview of the Hebrew God's little tribal reunification project.