The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Saint Steven]

Still unclear to me. How is the law different from the Law?

The law (small "l") is a subset of the Law. (capital "L")

The Law is the Pentateuch, the five books of Moses.
Which contains the law. The law that God gave to the Israelites alone through Moses.

Deuteronomy 5:1-3
Moses summoned all Israel and said:
Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

 

[Saint Steven]

Okay, I see now. If Jesus terminated the law, then as I explained earlier why did he continue to keep it despite the Pharisees condemnation of him breaking the Sabbath as I explained earlier?

You are seeing a different Jesus than I am. In the passage below Jesus commands a man to carry his mat on the Sabbath. By the time we get half way through this chapter Jesus is self-admittedly breaking the Sabbath and implicating God the Father as well as the man he healed. What is all this about if Jesus came to uphold and promote the law?

John 5:8-11
Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” 9 At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10 and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”
11 But he replied, “The man who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’ ”

 

[Saint Steven]

Okay, I see now. If Jesus terminated the law, then as I explained earlier why did he continue to keep it despite the Pharisees condemnation of him breaking the Sabbath as I explained earlier?

Here's another one. (one of many)
The most telling thing about these examples is Jesus' self-defense. Each time he admits that the act is unlawful. Twice in this example. And implicates himself with one of them. "David" and his companions. (Jesus and his disciples)

Matthew 12:1-8
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

 

[Oldmantook]

I didn't mean he just said they took care, over the semester he often described the conferences they held to arrive at a translation. Have you ever checked a definition in the BDAG and took note of the historical sources they reviewed in determining the correct translation of words? I counted at least 35 for one single word "aionios." So if you want to challenge a translation then you better bring that kind of scholarship to the table. Just some "scholar" giving a different translation ain't going to cut it.

You know very well scholars differ in translation despite their best efforts. I refuted all of your citations and am still waiting for your response from my last post to you. Shall I wait or just ignore you?

 

[Oldmantook]

You are seeing a different Jesus than I am. In the passage below Jesus commands a man to carry his mat on the Sabbath. By the time we get half way through this chapter Jesus is self-admittedly breaking the Sabbath and implicating God the Father as well as the man he healed. What is all this about if Jesus came to uphold and promote the law?

John 5:8-11
Then Jesus said to him, “Get up! Pick up your mat and walk.” 9 At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10 and so the Jewish leaders said to the man who had been healed, “It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat.”
11 But he replied, “The man who made me well said to me, ‘Pick up your mat and walk.’ ”

From the outset we still see Jesus observing a Jewish feast in Jn 5:1. The feast days are in the law. Jesus kept them. Please point out to me where in this passage does Jesus "self-admittedly" break the Sabbath? V.16 states that the Jews accused him of breaking the law. Jesus admitted no such violation of the law. In fact, in the very next verse Jesus tells them that "My Father works until now, and I work." Thus Jesus admits to working on the Sabbath; however he never claims that it is a violation for Him to heal on the Sabbath. Again, the Jews are basing their accusation on their oral law; not the written law.

 

[Oldmantook]

I agree in general, but if Jesus came to uphold and promote the law, was this the way to do it? He challenged the law at every turn.

The most basic violation of the Sabbath law was work on the Sabbath. What does Jesus say about that?

John 5:16-18
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him. 17 In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” 18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

You conflate the oral law handed down by Jewish Rabbis with the written law of Moses. Jesus kept the Mosaic law and castigated/challenged his fellow Jews for following the oral law - not the written law.

 

[Oldmantook]

Here's another one. (one of many)
The most telling thing about these examples is Jesus' self-defense. Each time he admits that the act is unlawful. Twice in this example. And implicates himself with one of them. "David" and his companions. (Jesus and his disciples)

Matthew 12:1-8
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Ahh..an infamous example which also deceived me at one time. I'll just provide a link to a fairly good article on the subject to spare myself the time it takes to respond.
Did Jesus Violate the Sabbath?

 

[Saint Steven]

From the outset we still see Jesus observing a Jewish feast in Jn 5:1. The feast days are in the law. Jesus kept them. Please point out to me where in this passage does Jesus "self-admittedly" break the Sabbath? V.16 states that the Jews accused him of breaking the law. Jesus admitted no such violation of the law. In fact, in the very next verse Jesus tells them that "My Father works until now, and I work." Thus Jesus admits to working on the Sabbath; however he never claims that it is a violation for Him to heal on the Sabbath. Again, the Jews are basing their accusation on their oral law; not the written law.

It looks as though you answered your own question.
Working on the Sabbath is the most basic violation of Sabbath rest. And Jesus, as you said, admitted to working on the Sabbath. You are correct.

 

[Saint Steven]

You conflate the oral law handed down by Jewish Rabbis with the written law of Moses. Jesus kept the Mosaic law and castigated/challenged his fellow Jews for following the oral law - not the written law.

Not working on the Sabbath was the written law, not the "oral law", as you call it.
You are no doubt familiar with the Ten Commandments.
Jesus readily admits to working on the Sabbath.

The Apostle Paul had a few choice words about the Ten Commandments. Assuming they were "engraved in letters on stone". See scripture below.

He calls the TCs the transitory ministry that brought condemnation and death which has no glory now. Other than that, totally awesome. - lol

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

 

[Saint Steven]

Ahh..an infamous example which also deceived me at one time. I'll just provide a link to a fairly good article on the subject to spare myself the time it takes to respond.
Did Jesus Violate the Sabbath?

Thanks. Believe me, I've heard it all before. (yawn) Zzzz...

My journey on this subject started in 2008 when a Seventh Day Adventist asked me why I was only keeping nine of the Ten Commandments. I had never been asked that question before. I spent the next ten years debating he and other Sabbatarians. I'm pretty well settled in my mind on the subject.

Are you a Sabbatarian?

If this is upsetting, we should just drop it. I would rather maintain the relationship than attempt to win an argument. Thanks.

 

[Saint Steven]

I wish there was a 'hound of heaven' scripture. It's a lovely metaphor imho.

This is the closest thing I can think of. The good shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to search for the one lost sheep.

Matthew 18:12-14
“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

 

[FineLinen]

The purpose of evil. > > >

The Purpose of Evil by A.P. Adams

Furthermore, the final outcome of God's plan, so clearly revealed in the scripture irresistibly drives us to that view. All the details and every particular of the plan in all its length and breadth are not revealed, but the result is revealed.

And that result, the final outcome, is a perfect and absolute triumph for goodness, truth, and justice.

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall give praise to God." (Rom. 14;11; Is. 45:23).

"The whole creation shall be delivered form the bondage of corruption." (Rom. 8:21).

"All things in heaven and earth shall be gathered together in Christ." (Eph. 1:10).

"Death shall be swallowed up in victory." (I Cor. 15:54).

"There shall be no more anything accursed." (Rev. 22:3).

"Every created thing shall praise God." (Ps. 102:18).

This is the outcome! Thank God, it is good enough! To this final result all things are tending. To such a universal victory we are traveling on. We can see it by faith afar off.

 

[FineLinen]

Plan b =

There shall be an everlasting curse upon the vast majority of creation. This curse remains unending with unending termination.

Plan A (The Heavenly Father's exquisite purpose).

There shall be NO MORE Curse!

No = ou

More = eti

Curse = katathema

The leaves of the Tree of Life are for the healing of the nations.

 

[FineLinen]

The Healing leaves of the Tree of Life =

THERAPUEO

Serves as a therapon & attendant.

To care for the sick.

To heal. To treat. To cure.

therapeutics

 

[Hillsage]

The purpose of evil. > > >

The Purpose of Evil by A.P. Adams

Furthermore, the final outcome of God's plan, so clearly revealed in the scripture irresistibly drives us to that view. All the details and every particular of the plan in all its length and breadth are not revealed, but the result is revealed.

And that result, the final outcome, is a perfect and absolute triumph for goodness, truth, and justice.

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall give praise to God." (Rom. 14;11; Is. 45:23).

"The whole creation shall be delivered form the bondage of corruption." (Rom. 8:21).

"All things in heaven and earth shall be gathered together in Christ." (Eph. 1:10).

"Death shall be swallowed up in victory." (I Cor. 15:54).

"There shall be no more anything accursed." (Rev. 22:3).

"Every created thing shall praise God." (Ps. 102:18).

This is the outcome! Thank God, it is good enough! To this final result all things are tending. To such a universal victory we are traveling on. We can see it by faith afar off.

I loved AP Adams. I have a 300 page book with all of his monthly teachings which started in March of 1885 with a subscription fee of "One Dollar per Annum". I found it 30 (?) years ago and was amazed at the depth of revelation and understanding which I received in reading his work.

'The Purpose of Evil' was his Volume 1 No 8 issue.

 

[Der Alte]

Time does not pass after death. That's why things are eternal there.
Otherwise, they'd just get older. (In time)

That is a empty argument not evidence. As one ECF, Justin, said it is not punishment if the person is not conscious. You can't punish a dead body any more than you can a dead horse. Now if you could only quote some historical evidence which supports your view. Jesus is quoted as using the word for death 17 times. In Matthew 25:46 if Jesus meant "death" that is what He would have said.

 

[Der Alte]

This is the closest thing I can think of. The good shepherd leaves the ninety-nine to search for the one lost sheep.
Matthew 18:12-14
“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Does the shepherd leave the flock and go search for a wild sheep that was never part of the flock?

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.​

 

[Lazarus Short]

Does the shepherd leave the flock and go search for a wild sheep that was never part of the flock?

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.​

Agreed...at that time. Later, as we all know, the Good News went out to the nations, or as you call them above, the "wild sheep." Nice try though...

 

[Hillsage]

Agreed...at that time. Later, as we all know, the Good News went out to the nations, or as you call them above, the "wild sheep." Nice try though...

Wild sheep sounds pretty 'non biblical' IMO. But when you're justifying something it sounds good.

JOH 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

We know when He was alive He was sent to the JEWS. But His voice now goes forth to the GENTILE as well as the JEWS. He still just has 'one flock', but obviously there's a number of spiritually 'black sheep' in that flock.

 

[Oldmantook]

It looks as though you answered your own question.
Working on the Sabbath is the most basic violation of Sabbath rest. And Jesus, as you said, admitted to working on the Sabbath. You are correct.

Yes Jesus worked on the Sabbath. The priests in the temple performing their priestly duties also worked on the Sabbath per Matt 12:5; thus profaning it yet are "guiltless" according to Jesus. How can that be? Because the Jews followed the letter of the law instead of understanding the spirit of the law. The priests although working on the Sabbath were working out of duty/devotion to God, thus Jesus declared them innocent.

Similarly, Jesus points out in v.4 that David and his companions ate the consecrated bread which was unlawful since it was reserved for the priests. Yet Jesus declared them innocent. Matt 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.

Jesus sums up the correct understanding of the Sabbath in v.11 - He said to them, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
And to illustrate this and drive home his point, what does Jesus do? He then tells a man to stretch out his hand and his hand is healed thus illustrating that it is not unlawful to work on the Sabbath in order to do good to one's neighbor. Unfortunately, the Pharisees never understood this and valued their own interpretation (Rabbinic oral law) over Jesus' own words.