THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

[mmksparbud]

 

[Oldmantook]

Goodness what nonsense! How does any of this address the posts and all the scriptures shared with you in post # 462 linked and post # 533 linked, that discusses the scripture contexts you leave out of REVELATION 22:11-15 and the GREEK tranlsation of commandments and washed robes to the application of the verb tenses in REVELATION 22:14 including the participle tense of "plynontes" as applied to the two tranlations shared with you? The linked posts above were provided to prove your interpretation and application of REVELATION 22:14 is in error and you have simply hand waived and ignored what was shared with you. Your only showing you have misapplied context and are confused within the translations of the kjv and newer tranlations that even the scholars do not agree on and proven you do not understand the Koine Greek and REVELATION 22. Anyhow I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Your only repeating yourself without addressing anything I have shared with you. I wish you well but as you can see from the scriptures your trying to read into the scriptures what they do not say or teach which is not biblical as proven in the linked posts above. You are free to believe what you want. We all answer only to God come judgement day for which the scriptures teach there is no more second chances to those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 25:31-41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 7:13-27; REVELATION 22:11-12.

You have abysmally failed to deal the the text of Rev 22:14. You quote "doing his commandments" as if that changes the meaning of the verse. It is still in the present tense is it not?? FYI those in the new Jerusalem have ALREADY DONE HIS commandments. They have kept the faith and persevered despite being persecuted by the antichrist.
"Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea." Rev 12:17
"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." Rev 14:12
Because they endured by having kept the commandments and their faith in Jesus despite the antichrist's persecution, the saints are the overcomers who now reside in the new Jerusalem. Thus they cannot be the ones washing their robes or doing his commandments in Rev 22:14. Since the saints are already in the new Jerusalem, how can they be the ones who WILL HAVE (future tense) the right to the tree of life and SHALL ENTER (subjunctive with result clause) the city gates? Only those outside the city in the LOF will have the right to the tree of life and shall enter the city - as they continue to wash their robes/continue to do His commandments. The saints who are in the city already have the right to the tree of life and have already entered the city gates.

 

[Oldmantook]

Nice pics of yourself!

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You have abysmally failed to deal the the text of Rev 22:14. You quote "doing his commandments" as if that changes the meaning of the verse. It is still in the present tense is it not?? FYI those in the new Jerusalem have ALREADY DONE HIS commandments. They have kept the faith and persevered despite being persecuted by the antichrist.
"Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea." Rev 12:17
"Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus." Rev 14:12
Because they endured by having kept the commandments and their faith in Jesus despite the antichrist's persecution, the saints are the overcomers who now reside in the new Jerusalem. Thus they cannot be the ones washing their robes or doing his commandments in Rev 22:14. Since the saints are already in the new Jerusalem, how can they be the ones who WILL HAVE (future tense) the right to the tree of life and SHALL ENTER (subjunctive with result clause) the city gates? Only those outside the city in the LOF will have the right to the tree of life and shall enter the city - as they continue to wash their robes/continue to do His commandments. The saints who are in the city already have the right to the tree of life and have already entered the city gates.

Nonsense dear friend. The opposite is true and I believe that anyone who is honest of heart seeking God's guidence through his Spirit can see this as shown in the scriptures provided in post # 462 linked and post # 533 linked that you simply ignored and have not addressed.

These posts demonstrate the context of REVELATION 22:11-15 that you have ignored in your interpretation that provs that God's saints are the ones entering into the city and receiving everlasting life *REVELATION 22:11-14 while you ignore REVELATION 22:15 that says the wicked remain outside of the city and do not receive everlasting life.

Now dear OMT, everything you have provided has been addressed through the scriptures and the Greek section by section and scripture by scripture proving why your interpretation is in error. Your response is to simply ignore these posts linked above as though they do not exist and repeat yourself so there is not really anything I can add to our conversation so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

REVELATION 22:14-15 [14], BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY (the Saints see REVELATION 14:12).[15], FOR WITHOUT ARE DOGS, AND SORCERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND MURDERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND WHOEVER LOVES AND MAKES A LIE (the wicked are outside see HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 25:31-41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 7:13-27; REVELATION 22:11-12).

Sorry dear friend I believe God's Word disagrees with you and there is no more second chances to those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *HEBREWS 10:26-31. OI believe only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over man made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God's Word *MATTHEW 15:2-9.

Thanks for sharing your view but as you can see we will have to agree to disagree. I pray that God may help you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[Oldmantook]

Nonsense dear friend. The opposite is true and I believe that anyone who is honest of heart seeking God's guidence through his Spirit can see this as shown in the scriptures provided in post # 462 linked and post # 533 linked that you simply ignored and have not addressed.

These posts demonstrate the context of REVELATION 22:11-15 that you have ignored in your interpretation that provs that God's saints are the ones entering into the city and receiving everlasting life *REVELATION 22:11-14 while you ignore REVELATION 22:15 that says the wicked remain outside of the city and do not receive everlasting life.

Now dear OMT, everything you have provided has been addressed through the scriptures and the Greek section by section and scripture by scripture proving why your interpretation is in error. Your response is to simply ignore these posts linked above as though they do not exist and repeat yourself so there is not really anything I can add to our conversation so I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

REVELATION 22:14-15 [14], BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY (the Saints see REVELATION 14:12).[15], FOR WITHOUT ARE DOGS, AND SORCERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND MURDERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND WHOEVER LOVES AND MAKES A LIE (the wicked are outside see HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 25:31-41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 7:13-27; REVELATION 22:11-12).

Sorry dear friend I believe God's Word disagrees with you and there is no more second chances to those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *HEBREWS 10:26-31. OI believe only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over man made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God's Word *MATTHEW 15:2-9.

Thanks for sharing your view but as you can see we will have to agree to disagree. I pray that God may help you as you seek him through his Word.

You have just repeated your same claims like a broken record. The wicked are indeed outside the city - in the lake of fire. However, they do not remain there. because they are washing their robes as opposed to the saints in the city who have already washed their robes. Rev 7:14 which you cited makes it clear that the saints have already washed their robes and have made them white. Since their robes are already white, how can the saints in the city continue to be washing their robes which have already been made white?? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Furthermore, you have avoided addressing the verb tenses in this verse as it states that this group WILL HAVE THE RIGHT to the tree of life and SHALL ENTER the city by its gates. The saints are already in the city so it is not possible that this verse refers to them as they already possess the right to the tree of life and they have already entered the city gates. This leaves only the sinners in the LOF who will have the right to the tree of life and shall enter the city gates. You continue to ignore this inconvenient detail.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You have just repeated your same claims like a broken record. The wicked are indeed outside the city - in the lake of fire. However, they do not remain there. because they are washing their robes as opposed to the saints in the city who have already washed their robes. Rev 7:14 which you cited makes it clear that the saints have already washed their robes and have made them white. Since their robes are already white, how can the saints in the city continue to be washing their robes which have already been made white?? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Furthermore, you have avoided addressing the verb tenses in this verse as it states that this group WILL HAVE THE RIGHT to the tree of life and SHALL ENTER the city by its gates. The saints are already in the city so it is not possible that this verse refers to them as they already possess the right to the tree of life and they have already entered the city gates. This leaves only the sinners in the LOF who will have the right to the tree of life and shall enter the city gates. You continue to ignore this inconvenient detail.

Nonsense. There is no where in any scripture that you have provided dear friend, that says the wicked come out of the lake of fire and enter the city and receive eternal life. Why not? Yep they are destroyed see HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 25:31-41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 7:13-27; REVELATION 22:11-12. Your claims are addressed in detail through the scriptures that show the context you leave out in post # 462 linked and post # 533 linked showing why your interpretation is in error. Your only repeating yourself here and ignoring the posts and scriptures shared with you only as a help that prove why you are in error. Unless you have anything new to offer as I said earlier we will have to agree to disagree and remain friends. I pray that God may help you as you seek him through his Word. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though as you can tell I do not believe for the reasons provided from the scriptures that they are biblical.

 

[mmksparbud]

Nice pics of yourself!

Accurate as to what I am doing when I read this thread, just wrong sex. I have to ration my time on here----leads to severe headaches.

 

[ClementofA]

Nonsense. There is no where in any scripture that you have provided dear friend, that says the wicked come out of the lake of fire and enter the city and receive eternal life. Why not? Yep they are destroyed see HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 25:31-41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 7:13-27; REVELATION 22:11-12. Your claims are addressed in detail through the scriptures that show the context you leave out in post # 462 linked and post # 533 linked showing why your interpretation is in error. Your only repeating yourself here and ignoring the posts and scriptures shared with you only as a help that prove why you are in error. Unless you have anything new to offer as I said earlier we will have to agree to disagree and remain friends. I pray that God may help you as you seek him through his Word. Thanks for sharing your thoughts though as you can tell I do not believe for the reasons provided from the scriptures that they are biblical.

All those passages have been addressed here repeatedly by Christians who believe in the biblical doctrine of universalism. As a search will prove. For example Hebrews 10:

Search Results for Query: Hebrews 10 | Christian Forums

Following is one sample post from that list:

The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism

Which states:

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejecters would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

All those passages have been addressed here repeatedly by Christians who believe in the biblical doctrine of universalism.

Which ones? Those of you that teach JESUS tortures people until they repent in the lake of fire after the second coming or those who do not teach a lake of fire and Jesus lets the wicked in anyway and make a mockery of the death of JESUS? If none of you agree amoung yourselves why do you claim what you believe is biblical? Yep because as shown through the scriptures it is not biblical. All I am hearing here is that those who talk Universalism want to point people to the teachings of men and the few that want to discuss the scriptures end up not being able to discuss the scriptures. I see no evidence that Universalism is biblical at all and more and more evidence the more I speak with those who believe it that it is a teaching of men and a doctrine of devils that can lead people to think they can live like the devil today because there is always second chances tomorrow when the scriptures teach there is no second chances at the second coming. Yep me thinks many are going to be disappointed come judgement day *MATTHEW 7:22-23.

 

[ClementofA]

Which ones?

All those you listed & others. See my edited post re a response to Hebrews 10.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

All those you listed & others. See my edited post re a response to Hebrews 10.

Hmmm What?? Yep I knew you would not address my post to you. You have no scripture do you.

 

[ClementofA]

If none of you agree amoung yourselves why do you claim what you believe is biblical?

So because Christians disagree & have 100's of denominations, why do they "claim what [they] believe is biblical? Answer that & you should have your answer.

 

[ClementofA]

Hmmm What?? Yep I knew you would not address my post to you. You have no scripture do you.

See my post #548 above with Scripture.

You have not answered it.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So because Christians disagree & have 100's of denominations, why do they "claim what [they] believe is biblical? Answer that & you should have your answer.

Well that is an easy one. Do you know what the meaning of MATTHEW 24:24? What do you think it means?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

See my post #548 above with Scripture.

You have not answered it.

What? I answered what you posted. You added the rest after I answered you. Did you not? Ok would you like to discuss the scriptures with me? If I spend some time addressing your posts and what you provide will you agree to provide me with the same courtesy and acknowledge if there is something you are not able to answer?

 

[ClementofA]

Hmmm What?? Yep I knew you would not address my post to you. You have no scripture do you.

God will be "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:28)

See also Rom.5:18-19.

 

[ClementofA]

What? I answered what you posted. You added the rest after I answered you. Did you not?

The added part is part of the post now. You haven't answered it.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

God will be "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:28) See also Rom.5:18-19.

Lovely scriptures but they do not say what you are claiming as context is to believers not unbelievers.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The added part is part of the post now. You haven't answered it.

Well don't pretend dear friend you made a post and I have not answered it when I did answer your post and you went back to it and changed it and added more to your post after I already answered it. That is not very honest now is it. Ok would you like to discuss the scriptures with me? If I spend some time addressing your posts and the one we are talking about now will you agree to provide me with the same courtesy and acknowledge if there is something you are not able to answer?

 

[ClementofA]

Well don't pretend dear friend you made a post and I have not answered it when I did answer your post and you went back to it and changed it and added more to your post after I already answered it. That is not very honest now is it. Ok would you like to discuss the scriptures with me? If I spend some time addressing your posts and the one we are talking about now will you agree to provide me with the same courtesy and acknowledge if there is something you are not able to answer?

You haven't been keeping up with reading the posts. In post 550 i told you i had edited it & later (553) that you have not answered it (meaning the edited post). And you still haven't.