THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

[Saint Steven]

There is a small path to heaven. Many who call themselves "Christians" might not find it.

Do you realize what you are accusing God of when you say this?

You are are accusing God of making a world in which his PLAN was to predestine countless billions of those created in his own image to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape. The vast majority of whom would have no knowledge of this narrow way you describe.

 

[Saint Steven]

They believe sinners will go through the lake of fire, spend time there to cleanse them of their sins--like dross they say---then they will come out of the lake of fire to spend eternity with Jesus. This includes Satan and Hitler--everyone. I've asked them to give a verse that states anyone comes out of the lake of fire and, of course they can't, they say it has to be pieced together. What it boils down to, though they deny it, is that God tortures sinners until they repent, whither they mean it or not. God will save everyone, even if it's against their will.

This is a half-truth accusation at best.

And do you really expect Damnationists to be shocked when you say we claim that "God tortures sinners" (bolded in your quote above) "until they repent"? What do the Damnationists claim? Eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape.

And why do you side with Damnationists when you are an Annihilationist? I've never seen you attempting to correct them.

 

[Saint Steven]

Still waiting for an answer to:

"So, how long are the sinners who were unbelievers at death, put to disciplinary action before entry to heaven is achieved?"

An age.
Which is far short of eternity with no hope of escape.
Mercy is ALWAYS an option for justice.

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

 

[Shrewd Manager]

What is "universalism", as you understand it? (that may be the actual problem here) Most people reject "universalism" based on a caricature of what they imagine it is. I know I did.

That's the question for the OP and all the other strawman-bashers on this thread.

Despite many attempts to correct them on some of the basic precepts of UR, they just keep shadow-boxing.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Being cut off. John 15:4.

Being cut off is not necessarily a bad thing in scripture, it's brought to us by the number 7 and the letter Zayin. As in 'I have not come to bring peace, but a sword'. To cut the chains to our old worldly identity. It's the part of the journey from the aleph to the tav. Just zayin'.

 

[JacksBratt]

An age.
Which is far short of eternity with no hope of escape.
Mercy is ALWAYS an option for justice.

Matthew 25:46 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

I guess you had to go through a whole bunch of translations until you got one that could squeeze in to your backward view..


Just so you know... there is NO time in eternity...

You cannot say, a year, two years, 100 years.. a life time.. whatever..

There is no time outside this universe...

 

[JacksBratt]

Yah---well, get to the back of the line---I asked a long time ago--and actually, another thread also! Never got an answer! Even after asking when one said that any time in hell was not acceptable! I pointed out their discrepancy with that statement and with their believe is, spending time in the lake of fire until they repent! Makes no sense---can't have no time in lake of fire is acceptable and spending time in the lake of fire until you repent!! And then they say that is not torture, or coercion!!!

Ya, it's a long long line.... and... it ain't moving.

 

[Saint Steven]

I guess you had to go through a whole bunch of translations until you got one that could squeeze in to your backward view..


Just so you know... there is NO time in eternity...

You cannot say, a year, two years, 100 years.. a life time.. whatever..

There is no time outside this universe...

That being the case, why would you demand to know how long? (no time in eternity)
How long does it take to build a house? (depends on the house)

There are many references to time in the afterlife. Ages and ages...

1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us,
on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

Revelation 22:2
down the middle of the great street of the city.
On each side of the river stood the tree of life,
bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month.
And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I guess you had to go through a whole bunch of translations until you got one that could squeeze in to your backward view..


Just so you know... there is NO time in eternity...

You cannot say, a year, two years, 100 years.. a life time.. whatever..

There is no time outside this universe...

There may be no time in eternity, but does a person experience time in eternity? If there are processes going on - such as the washing of robes, or the tormenting of flesh - one would presume so, unless maybe its a Sisyphean labour...condemned to wash and wash, without the stains ever being removed...still you'd become pretty good at it after a while, no?

 

[Saint Steven]

Ya, it's a long long line.... and... it ain't moving.

Six feet apart please. We're observing social distancing. And you'll have to have a shopping cart, as we are tracking how many. - lol

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Six feet apart please. We're observing social distancing. And you'll have to have a shopping cart, as we are tracking ho many. - lol

Haha, that's hell. In heaven, it's only 2 ft. Grace.

 

[mmksparbud]

This is a half-truth accusation at best.

And do you really expect Damnationists to be shocked when you say we claim that "God tortures sinners" (bolded in your quote above) "until they repent"? What do the Damnationists claim? Eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape.

And why do you side with Damnationists when you are an Annihilationist? I've never seen you attempting to correct them.

LOL!! Why do you say I side with damnationists? I am as opposed to that interpretation, as I am opposed to yours. That we may agree on some things is inevitable as there would be agreements on some things with Uni. I do not believe God tortures anyone for the sake of torture. Uni's end up with "torture until repentance." Damnationists it's never ending conscious torment, annalists it is not torture for the sake of torture, it is the price of not having Jesus blood cover the sinners sins. The price is what God said the price of sin is from the very start---death. There is no such thing as everlasting conscious death---there is no consciousness. They die. Period. The lake of fire was never meant as a punishment to be endured until you repent---it is a final judgement. The choice was made before they died as to whom they would worship and obey---God or Satan. That choice is made and permanent. when Jesus has finished His work as our High Priest, He will say, "It is done."

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
There will be no more decisions made for the time is up---

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Jesus will now come for the saved only. The lake of fire is for the 2nd death, from which not one single person can come out of to live with Jesus. He forces no one, they will not repent. That is vividly shown when Satan gathers them all and tries to take the city by force. That is not a sign of repentance!! There is no remedy for unrepentant sinners but the 2nd death. The time for decisions is NOW! For there will never be a 2nd chance after death and we never know when our 1st death will occur.

 

[Saint Steven]

Haha, that's hell. In heaven, it's only 2 ft. Grace.

I thought in hell they were thrown in like firewood. With everyone fighting each other to get to the top of the pile.

Isn't that what the Damnationists are accusing God of creating?

 

[Saint Steven]

LOL!! Why do you say I side with damnationists? I am as opposed to that interpretation, as I am opposed to yours. That we may agree on some things is inevitable as there would be agreements on some things with Uni. I do not believe God tortures anyone for the sake of torture. Uni's end up with "torture until repentance." Damnationists it's never ending conscious torment, annalists it is not torture for the sake of torture, it is the price of not having Jesus blood cover the sinners sins. The price is what God said the price of sin is from the very start---death. There is no such thing as everlasting conscious death---there is no consciousness. They die. Period. The lake of fire was never meant as a punishment to be endured until you repent---it is a final judgement. The choice was made before they died as to whom they would worship and obey---God or Satan. That choice is made and permanent. when Jesus has finished His work as our High Priest, He will say, "It is done."

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
There will be no more decisions made for the time is up---

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Jesus will now come for the saved only. The lake of fire is for the 2nd death, from which not one single person can come out of to live with Jesus. He forces no one, they will not repent. That is vividly shown when Satan gathers them all and tries to take the city by force. That is not a sign of repentance!! There is no remedy for unrepentant sinners but the 2nd death. The time for decisions is NOW! For there will never be a 2nd chance after death and we never know when our 1st death will occur.

That doesn't sound like an apology to me.

 

[mmksparbud]

That doesn't sound like an apology to me.

What on earth makes you think anything I said demands an apology?? I can not apologize for quoting scripture!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I thought in hell they were thrown in like firewood. With everyone fighting each other to get to the top of the pile.

Isn't that what the Damnationists are accusing God of creating?

It's the quintessential imponderable for damnation and annihilation theology:

How can the destruction of anyone equate to a victory for salvation?

The restorationists see the Biblical answer - destruction is unto transformation/ conversion from darkness to light through Jesus Christ in the fiery presence of God.

The Roman triumph is one where the vanquished enemies of Caesar are paraded through the streets, sullen and resentful.

The Christian victory is where God's former enemies bring their honour and glory to the throne in worship, repenting of their folly and rejoicing in their surrender to Christ.

Which is a greater victory?

 

[JacksBratt]

That being the case, why would you demand to know how long? (no time in eternity)
How long does it take to build a house? (depends on the house)

There are many references to time in the afterlife. Ages and ages...

1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us,
on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

Revelation 22:2
down the middle of the great street of the city.
On each side of the river stood the tree of life,
bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month.
And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

My points were two fold...

Number one... there is no way to determine a "time" as there is no "time"

And secondly.. you would have to weight the extent of ones supposed crime as to how long and how severe the discipline...

None of which is ever spoke of in the canon.

 

[JacksBratt]

There may be no time in eternity, but does a person experience time in eternity? If there are processes going on - such as the washing of robes, or the tormenting of flesh - one would presume so, unless maybe its a Sisyphean labour...condemned to wash and wash, without the stains ever being removed...still you'd become pretty good at it after a while, no?

No,

Washing of the robes would be instant..

and...

I presume nothing when it comes to the torment of souls... nor do I state "maybe's"

Once all is done..at the judgement..Even death is ended..... so, there is no evidence for souls popping into heaven after a certain amount of torment for their individual allotment of time.

 

[JacksBratt]

Six feet apart please. We're observing social distancing. And you'll have to have a shopping cart, as we are tracking how many. - lol

The way this line moves.. I'll need a chair and some Wifi.....

 

[mmksparbud]

It's the quintessential imponderable for damnation and annihilation theology:

How can the destruction of anyone equate to a victory for salvation?

The restorationists see the Biblical answer - destruction is unto transformation/ conversion from darkness to light through Jesus Christ in the fiery presence of God.

The Roman triumph is one where the vanquished enemies of Caesar are paraded through the streets, sullen and resentful.

The Christian victory is where God's former enemies bring their honour and glory to the throne in worship, repenting of their folly and rejoicing in their surrender to Christ.

Which is a greater victory?

It is a victory over sin---that is what all this is about---the eradication of sin. Jesus paid the price for all---but those who reject Him have no protection and will die---their sin dies with them. Forced repentance is no repentance. The heart has not been changed. Their decision has been made. Our world will be free of sin. That is the victory. Sin is dead---period. If God wanted a forced acceptance of Him, He could have done it from the very beginning---torture them into submission. He has never wanted a forced acceptance---but one out of love for Him, and that is what He will have, a world with only those who love Him, choose Him to follow before death, there is no repentance after death.