THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Status
Not open for further replies.

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
17be5406855736c7f672d4e4b03fe78311557df3.jpeg



This is what a real saviour does.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

a-lily-of-peace

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2020
521
310
Australia
✟28,113.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Even if you hope for eternal reconciliation you don’t need to try to explain how.

Especially not like that. Not to line people up to enter a place you can’t promise they’re able to leave. It’s not your promise to make.

Acts 9:18.

peace to you
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
So, how long are the sinners who were unbelievers at death, put to disciplinary action before entry to heaven is achieved?

Dear Bratt:

There is no strain to include all mankind into God’s Eternal Kingdom…”

The strain = “All mankind is imprisoned in disobedience.”

Yes, that is the radical pas!

What is the outcome of this incarceration?

Mercy upon all.

The same radical pas imprisoned in disobedience = the radical pas experiencing mercy.

Have you ever come on anything quite like this extravagant generosity of God, this deep, deep wisdom? It’s way over our heads. We’ll never figure it out.

Is there anyone around who can explain God? Anyone smart enough to tell him what to do? Anyone who has done him such a huge favor that God has to ask his advice?

Everything comes from him;
Everything happens through him;
Everything ends up in him.

Always glory! Always praise! Yes. Yes. Yes.

“Whole” =

Constituting the total sum or undiminished entirety.

“God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.”

"For God hath shut up all together, in a refusal to yield, in order that, upon all, he may bestow mercy. " -Rotherham Emphasized-

“For God has locked up all in the prison of unbelief, that upon all alike He may have mercy.” F. W. Weymouth

For God encloses, shuts up and locks all men (everyone; the all [pl.]) into uncompliance (disobedience; stubbornness), to the end that He may mercy all men (may make everyone, the all, recipients of mercy)! -Jonathan Mitchell N.T.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
“We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored.”

The risen Christ preaches to the dead

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-

Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.

Disobedient= apeitheo=

Not to allow one’s self to be persuaded.

To refuse or withhold belief & obedience.

To refuse belief and obedience.

Not to comply with.

Live= zao=

To be alive with resurrection life.
 
Upvote 0

JacksBratt

Searching for Truth
Supporter
Jul 5, 2014
16,282
6,483
62
✟570,626.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Dear Bratt:

There is no strain to include all mankind into God’s Eternal Kingdom…”

The strain = “All mankind is imprisoned in disobedience.”

Yes, that is the radical pas!

What is the outcome of this incarceration?

Mercy upon all.

The same radical pas imprisoned in disobedience = the radical pas experiencing mercy.

Have you ever come on anything quite like this extravagant generosity of God, this deep, deep wisdom? It’s way over our heads. We’ll never figure it out.

Is there anyone around who can explain God? Anyone smart enough to tell him what to do? Anyone who has done him such a huge favor that God has to ask his advice?

Everything comes from him;
Everything happens through him;
Everything ends up in him.

Always glory! Always praise! Yes. Yes. Yes.

“Whole” =

Constituting the total sum or undiminished entirety.

“God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.”

"For God hath shut up all together, in a refusal to yield, in order that, upon all, he may bestow mercy. " -Rotherham Emphasized-

“For God has locked up all in the prison of unbelief, that upon all alike He may have mercy.” F. W. Weymouth

For God encloses, shuts up and locks all men (everyone; the all [pl.]) into uncompliance (disobedience; stubbornness), to the end that He may mercy all men (may make everyone, the all, recipients of mercy)! -Jonathan Mitchell N.T.
Blah blah blah...

How long?
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
REVELATION 22:14 are God's people who kept his commandments and believed and followed his Word entering into the city of God and having right to everlsating life and the tree of life. Do you see where the wicked are? They do not enter the city of God and do not have access to eternal life and the tree of life they are outside of Gods city not inside.
You are badly misinformed. I suggest you study the verb tenses in this verse including the participle tense of "plynontes." Tell me what you find. If not let me know and I'll inform you. You will be enlightened.

I think you are confused here dear brother. Did you know that the washing of our robes in the blood of the Lamb is in reference to those who accept JESUS sacrifice for their sins? I am assuming your talknig about REVELATION 7:14 14, And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, AND HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES, AND MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB. ??
You are the confused one. And why were their robes washed? Answer - because they kept the faith and endured persecution; did not worship the beast to the point where many had their heads cut off (Rev 20:4). Why do you suppose Jesus judges the 7 Churches in Revelation by stating multiple times "I know thy works" referencing their works, or lack thereof? Rev 2:26 states "The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations." Washing requires action on the individual's part - not simply cognitive belief upon salvation as you mistakenly presume.
 
Upvote 0

ClementofA

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jul 10, 2016
5,459
2,197
Vancouver
✟310,073.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You are badly misinformed. I suggest you study the verb tenses in this verse including the participle tense of "plynontes." Tell me what you find. If not let me know and I'll inform you. You will be enlightened.

Please do share.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Please be patient. I requested the OP to do his homework first. If not, then I'll gladly share.

Oldman: if you are waiting on the author of the OP to do her homework, or answer any question less than a page of scriptures, you will require patience that exceeds human standards. (lol)

plynontes will be out of her reach.

Time for a few Z's.

The leaves of the Tree of Life are for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more thanantos!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
“We all must die and are like water spilled on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, but the Lord does not take away life, instead He devises ways for the banished to be restored.”

The risen Christ preaches to the dead

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." -Rotherham Emphasized-

Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.

Disobedient= apeitheo=

Not to allow one’s self to be persuaded.

To refuse or withhold belief & obedience.

To refuse belief and obedience.

Not to comply with.

Live= zao=

To be alive with resurrection life.

To die like water? Is water alive or dead? Yet it is true that polluted waters from broken cisterns are for the dead but not the living. The waters that we are to drink according to JESUS are the living waters that give eternal life. Do you know what these waters are dear FINE? If you do why do you point all to the teachings of men?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: mmksparbud
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Actually perhaps you need to do some more research dear OMT. Eternal conscous torment (ECT) is indeed so much different to the annihilation of the wicked which is biblical. ECT is the false teachings of eternal burning hell where God tortures the wicked forever which is the doctrine of the Catholic Church handed down to apostate protestantism while the annihilation of the wicked is the destruction of the wicked who no longer cease to exist. In fact I believe that Universalism is more closely alligned to ECT then annihilation is because Universalism teaches that the wicked are cast in the lake of fire and tortured until they repent and turn to God? Nice God you woship there dear OMT. I think we have looked in detail at COLOSSIANS 1:20 already to show it does not say what your claiming it says in the bottom section of post # 241 linked.

True indeed. I believe the doctrine of second chances is not biblical and the doctrine of devils *1 TIMOTHY 4:1; 1 CORINTHIANS 10:21; REVELATION 18:2 designed to lead people away from God to live like the devil in sin. It counts the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *HEBREWS 10:26-31 making a mockery of the life and death of JESUS dying for our sins and receiving God's justice and judgement for sin so that we can be reconcilled to God *ISAIAH 53:5. If there was a doctrine of second chances dear friend, please tell me why did JESUS have to die on the cross for our sins? The penalty of sin is death which is God's justice and judgement for sin *ROMANS 6:20. Though you do not see this is God's justice and judgement yet the wages of sin is death for sin and all those who practice it and deny God's gift *HEBREWS 10:26-31. This is the big gap in the theology of Universalism in going to the opposite extreme as the false doctrine of ECT. Universalism denies God's justice and judgement yet it is in God's justice and judgement that God's love is revealed for all mankind *JOHN 3:16 to those who accept the gift of God's dear son through faith *EPHESIANS 2:8.

A careful reading of the scriptures you are providing dear OMT do not say anywhere that the wicked are getting a second chance so this idea I do indeed reject but let me show why. Both REVELATION 21 and REVELATION 22 are in reference to God's people and their blessings and the wicked who reject JESUS and receive his judgements.

IF your referring to REVELATION 22:14 mine says [14], BLESSED ARE THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, THAT THEY MAY HAVE RIGHT TO THE TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN THROUGH THE GATES INTO THE CITY.

The Greek word here is G1785; ἐντολή; entolē; From G1781; injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept.

Mine is KJV not sure what translation your using there and it is not REVELATION 21 but REVELATION 22:14 as REVELATION 21:14 says [14], And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the NAMES OF THE TWELVE APOSTLES OF THE LAMB.

So your right REVELATION 22:14 refers to Gods people and notice the next verse you left out in REVELATION 22:15 which is in reference to the wicked who do not accept God.

REVELATION 22:15 [15], FOR WITHOUT ARE DOGS, AND SORCERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND MURDERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND WHOEVER LOVES AND MAKES A LIE.
Still waiting for you response to my post #527. Are you unwilling or unable to reply to the verb tenses used in Rev 22:14? If so, I will gladly elaborate for you.

Now did you notice what REVELATION 22:14-15 are saying?

REVELATION 22:14 are God's people who kept his commandments and believed and followed his Word entering into the city of God and having right to everlsating life and the tree of life. Do you see where the wicked are? They do not enter the city of God and do not have access to eternal life and the tree of life they are outside of Gods city not inside.

I think you are confused here dear brother. Did you know that the washing of our robes in the blood of the Lamb is in reference to those who accept JESUS sacrifice for their sins? I am assuming your talknig about REVELATION 7:14 14, And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, THESE ARE THEY WHICH CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION, AND HAVE WASHED THEIR ROBES, AND MADE THEM WHITE IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB. ??

This is in reference to all of us being guilty before God of sin and a reference to ISAIAH

ISAIAH 64:6-7 [6], BUT WE ARE ALL AS AN UNCLEAN THING, AND ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS; AND WE ALL DO FADE AS A LEAF; AND OUR INIQUITIES, LIKE THE WIND, HAVE TAKEN US AWAY.[7], And there is none that calls on your name, that stirs up himself to take hold of you: for you have hid your face from us, and have consumed us, because of our iniquities.

We wash our robes in the BLOOD of the lamb because it is His RIGHTEOUSNESS and BLOOD that has paid the price for our sins and paid the price for our transgressions and with his stripes we are healed.

This is what the RIGHTEOUS DO not the wicked dear friend. There are two groups described in REVELATION 21 and REVELATION 22 one is God's people and the other is the wicked and no where in any of these scriptures does it say that the wicked get a second chance at eternal life.

Hope this is helpful
Do you choose to not answer my question about the verb tenses used in Rev 22:14? If you are unable to, or unwilling to just let me know and I'll share with you.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You are badly misinformed. I suggest you study the verb tenses in this verse including the participle tense of "plynontes." Tell me what you find. If not let me know and I'll inform you. You will be enlightened.You are the confused one. And why were their robes washed? Answer - because they kept the faith and endured persecution; did not worship the beast to the point where many had their heads cut off (Rev 20:4). Why do you suppose Jesus judges the 7 Churches in Revelation by stating multiple times "I know thy works" referencing their works, or lack thereof? Rev 2:26 states "The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations." Washing requires action on the individual's part - not simply cognitive belief upon salvation as you mistakenly presume.

Dear OMT, here lets talk the detail perhaps this will help. There are two main translations for REVELATION 22:14 and even the scholars are not in agreement (whats new) as to what is right and what is wrong.

I believe the more accurate of the two is the how the KJV and the Aramaic and others translate REVELATION 22:14 as "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." The newer translations translate the Greek as "Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city."

To me I do not mind either interpretation in the english as I believe that in the English it can also be shown that both applications are relevant to the contexts of the scriptures that show application to God's people who are inside the city and receive eternal life (v14) not the wicked who do not receive eternal life and are outside of the city which is the context v15 that you have not considered in your post. In your post you did not respond to this as it was highlighted to you that it is impossible for REVELATION 22:14 to be referring to the wicked as REVELATION 22 is discussing the punishment of the wicked and the reward of the righteous. You ignore the very next verse of scripture in REVELATION 22:15 that makes your interpretation of the scriptures a faulty one. Happy to talk more detail if you like but what you have provided in this post makes no impact on scripture context in relation to the righteous (inside the city receiveing eternal life) and the wicked (outside of the city and no eternal life). The scriptures...

REVELATION 22:14-15 read like this. [14], Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[15], For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and fornicators, and murderers, and idolaters, and whoever loves and makes a lie.

As can be seen through the scriptures the scripture reference here in v14 is to God's Saints whe receive eternal life and are inside the city, while the wicked do not receive eternal life and are OUTSIDE the city. Blessed are they they do His commandments is also referenced back to REVELATION 14:12 Here is the paitience of the Saints here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of JESUS. So REVELATION 22:14 is not a reference to the wicked but the righteous.

Let's consider the verb tenses in REVELATION 22:14 including the participle tense of "plynontes." as applied to the two tranlations ...

You run into problems when you use the new translations in reference to the Greek although their context to God's saints is still correct because there is still two groups of people being referenced. The righteous in REVELATION 22:14 that receive eternal life and are inside the city and the wicked that are outside of the city v14-15.

The problems that you run into with the new translations that the KJV, Aramaic and other translations do not have as you have pointed out is in the verb tenses in this verse including the participle tense of "plynontes." There is no problem here to the use of the word do His commandment as application is to continuing to do which is ongoing. You do run into problems with the translation used in the newer versions however because wash their robes is continuing in the present tense particple. The context of REVELATION 22:14-15 don't foget as we have shown is to the people inside the city who are God's saints as the wicked are outside of the city (v14-15). The Saints do not continue washing their robes in the blood of the lamb after the second coming because the announcement is made in Heaven in the earlier context of REVELATION 22:11 [11], He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Also, dear OMT if you look at REVELATION 7:14 which says that those who came out of great tribulation "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." "Washed" is in the aorist tense which does not necessarily suggest ongoing action. This makes sense because, as is revealed by this verse, the washing of robes symbolizes the cleansing by the blood of Christ. Such an act is a completed event at the time of conversion. Revelation 1:5 says that Christ "washed us from our sins in his own blood". To "do his commandments", however, is an ongoing act even in other passages of scripture ("keep his commandments": 1 John 2:3, 3:22, 5:2-3, Revelation 12:17, 14:12). Revelation 22:14 switches "keep" to "do" because the immediate context contrasts the "doing" of immoral conduct with the "doing" of godly conduct (Revelation 22:11-15).

Ok I could make this much longer but I think you should be able to see that the context shown here and in the post you are qouting from proves that your interpretation of the scripture here is not correct. I pray dear friend that you might receive these scriptures in the Spirit they were given. Only in love and as a help for a closer walk with JESUS.

God bless.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Dear OMT, here lets talk the detail perhaps this will help. There are two main translations for REVELATION 22:14 and even the scholars are not in agreement (whats new) as to what is right and what is wrong.

I believe the more accurate of the two is the how the KJV and the Aramaic and others translate REVELATION 22:14 as "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." The newer translations translate the Greek as "Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city."

To me I do not mind either interpretation in the english as I believe that in the English it can also be shown that both applications are relevant to the context of the scriptures reference to God's people not the Wicked which is the context. In the post you did not respond to this was highlighted to you that it is impossible for REVELATION 22:14 to be referring to the wicked as REVELATION 22 is discussing the punishment of the wicked and the reward of the righteous. You ignore the very next verse of scripture in REVELATION 22:15 that makes your interpretation of the scriptures a faulty one. Why? Let's see.

REVELATION 22:14-15 read like this. [14], Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[15], For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and fornicators, and murderers, and idolaters, and whoever loves and makes a lie.

As can be seen through the scriptures the scripture reference here in v14 is to God's Saints whe receive eternal life and are inside the city, while the wicked do not receive eternal life and are OUTSIDE the city. Blessed are they they do His commandments is also referenced back to REVELATION 14:12 Here is the paitience of the Saints here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of JESUS. So REVELATION 22:14 is not a reference to the wicked but the righteous.

You run into problems when you use the new translations in reference to the Greek although their context to God's saints is still correct because there is still two groups of people being referenced. The righteous in REVELATION 22:14 that receive eternal life and are inside the city and the wicked that are outside of the city v14-15.

The problems that you run into with the new translations that the KJV, Aramaic and other translations do not have as you have pointed out is in the verb tenses in this verse including the participle tense of "plynontes." There is no problem here to the use of the word do His commandment as application is to continuing to do which is ongoing. You do run into problems with the translation used in the newer versions however because wash their robes is continuing in the present tense particple. The context of REVELATION 22:14-15 don't foget as we have shown is to the people inside the city who are God's saints as the wicked are outside of the city (v14-15). The Saints do not continue washing their robes in the blood of the lamb after the second coming because the announcement is made in Heaven in the earlier context of REVELATION 22:11 [11], He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Also, dear OMT if you look at REVELATION 7:14 which says that those who came out of great tribulation "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." "Washed" is in the aorist tense which does not necessarily suggest ongoing action. This makes sense because, as is revealed by this verse, the washing of robes symbolizes the cleansing by the blood of Christ. Such an act is a completed event at the time of conversion. Revelation 1:5 says that Christ "washed us from our sins in his own blood". To "do his commandments", however, is an ongoing act even in other passages of scripture ("keep his commandments": 1 John 2:3, 3:22, 5:2-3, Revelation 12:17, 14:12). Revelation 22:14 switches "keep" to "do" because the immediate context contrasts the "doing" of immoral conduct with the "doing" of godly conduct (Revelation 22:11-15).

Ok I could make this much longer but I think you should be able to see that the context shown here and in the post you are qouting from proves that your interpretation of the scripture here is not correct. I pray dear friend that you might receive these scriptures in the Spirit they were given. Only in love and as a help for a closer walk with JESUS.

God bless.
Do you have any familiarity with Koine Greek, verb or particle tenses? If so, I strongly suggest you look at the original language instead of relying soley on the English translation as the English does not always accurately translate what is found in the Greek. If you can't do this let me know.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Do you have any familiarity with Koine Greek, verb or particle tenses? If so, I strongly suggest you look at the original language instead of relying soley on the English translation as the English does not always accurately translate what is found in the Greek. If you can't do this let me know.

Goodness OMT I just demonstrated it to you showing the difference between the tranlsations. I was still writing in all fairness to you though after you wrote this post. Go back and read it.

Let's consider the verb tenses in REVELATION 22:14 including the participle tense of "plynontes." as applied to the two tranlations ...

You run into problems when you use the new translations in reference to the Koine Greek although their context to God's saints is still correct because there is still two groups of people being referenced. The righteous in REVELATION 22:14 that receive eternal life and are inside the city and the wicked that are outside of the city v14-15.

The problems that you run into with the new translations that the KJV, Aramaic and other translations do not have as you have pointed out is in the verb tenses in this verse including the participle tense of "plynontes." There is no problem here to the use of the word do His commandment as application is to continuing to do which is ongoing. You do run into problems with the translation used in the newer versions however because wash their robes is continuing in the present tense particple. The context of REVELATION 22:14-15 don't foget as we have shown is to the people inside the city who are God's saints as the wicked are outside of the city (v14-15). The Saints do not continue washing their robes in the blood of the lamb after the second coming because the announcement is made in Heaven in the earlier context of REVELATION 22:11 [11], He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Also, dear OMT if you look at REVELATION 7:14 which says that those who came out of great tribulation "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." "Washed" is in the aorist tense which does not necessarily suggest ongoing action. This makes sense because, as is revealed by this verse, the washing of robes symbolizes the cleansing by the blood of Christ. Such an act is a completed event at the time of conversion. Revelation 1:5 says that Christ "washed us from our sins in his own blood". To "do his commandments", however, is an ongoing act even in other passages of scripture ("keep his commandments": 1 John 2:3, 3:22, 5:2-3, Revelation 12:17, 14:12). Revelation 22:14 switches "keep" to "do" because the immediate context contrasts the "doing" of immoral conduct with the "doing" of godly conduct (Revelation 22:11-15).

Hope this helps
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Goodness I just demonstrated it do you nice hand waive. I was still writing in all fairness to you though after you wrote this post. Go back and read it.
Deal with the Greek - not the English because whatever you have written about the tenses in this verse is totally wrong.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Deal with the Greek - not the English because whatever you have written about the tenses in this verse is totally wrong.
Nonsense the tenses are ongoing application which supports the kjv translation to commandments. Your response here dear friend is only showing you have not read what your quoting from or do not understand it. I do not know which. Read the post above yours. As shown above the Koine GREEK does not effect the context to the two classes of people being discussed (Righteous inside the city receiving eternal life) REVELATION 22:14 and the wicked outside of the city who do not receive eternal life *REVELATION 22:15. You have ignored the context of REVELATION 22:11-15. The bible interpretation you have used is the source of your confusion looking at the verb tenses in REVELATION 22:14 including the participle tense of "plynontes." which was already discussed in some detail which do not effect context to the wicked and the righteous in REVELATION 22:11-15 dear friend.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: mmksparbud
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Read the post above yours. As shown above the Koine GREEK does not effect the context to the two classes of people being dicussed (Righteouss inside the city receiveing eternal life) REVELATION 22:14 and the wicked outside of the city who do not receive eternal life *REVELATION 22:15. You have ignored the context of REVELATION 22:11-15.
Okay apparently you don't know Greek so I'll help you out.
Let's get some things straight first.
The new heaven and new earth appear (Rev 21:1) and the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven (Rev 21:2). The saints live in the New Jerusalem and obviously they have no need to wash their robes as they have already washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 7:14).
With that understanding we come to Rev 22:14 which states:
Blessed are those washing their robes, that their right will be to the tree of life, and they shall enter into the city by the gates. (BLB)

We know that this verse cannot be referring to the saints living in the New Jerusalem because they have already washed their robes. The word for "wash" in v.14 is plynontes, which is a present tense participle accurately parsed as "washing." So the germane question is: Since the saved saints in the city have already washed their robes, who are the persons still washing their robes? There is only one group of people other than the saints and that is the group of people who live outside the city in the lake of fire as described in the very next verse.
Outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving and practicing falsehood. Rev 22:15 (BLB)

Thus v.14 refers to v.15 as they are the only ones yet to finish washing their robes as those in the city have already washed their robes. The sinners in the lake of fire are the only ones washing/plynontes their robes. V.14 states they are "blessed" for washing their robes. V.14 states their right "will be" to the tree of life. "Will be" is translated from the Greek word "estai" which is a future, indicative verb. This verb in the future tense and indicative mood indicates that those in the lake of fire will have the right to the tree of life as the indicative mood conveys a statement of fact and the future tense conveys that this action/right will occur in the future. Furthermore, the Greek word eiselthōsin translated as "shall enter" is a aorist, subjunctive verb. When the subjunctive mood is used in a purpose or result clause, then the action should not be thought of as a possible result, but should be viewed as a definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action. Thus as a result of the action of washing their robes, the sinners in the lake of fire will DEFINITELY experience the outcome of shall enter the city by its gates.

Thus your claim that no one gets a second chance in the lake of fire is false as this passage evidences otherwise. Those dogs, sorcerers, sexually immoral, etc. have to go through the lake of fire and wash their robes in order to have the right to the tree of life and enter the city gates.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Okay apparently you don't know Greek so I'll help you out.
Let's get some things straight first.
The new heaven and new earth appear (Rev 21:1) and the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven (Rev 21:2). The saints live in the New Jerusalem and obviously they have no need to wash their robes as they have already washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 7:14).
With that understanding we come to Rev 22:14 which states:
Blessed are those washing their robes, that their right will be to the tree of life, and they shall enter into the city by the gates. (BLB)

We know that this verse cannot be referring to the saints living in the New Jerusalem because they have already washed their robes. The word for "wash" in v.14 is plynontes, which is a present tense participle accurately parsed as "washing." So the germane question is: Since the saved saints in the city have already washed their robes, who are the persons still washing their robes? There is only one group of people other than the saints and that is the group of people who live outside the city in the lake of fire as described in the very next verse.
Outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving and practicing falsehood. Rev 22:15 (BLB)

Thus v.14 refers to v.15 as they are the only ones yet to finish washing their robes as those in the city have already washed their robes. The sinners in the lake of fire are the only ones washing/plynontes their robes. V.14 states they are "blessed" for washing their robes. V.14 states their right "will be" to the tree of life. "Will be" is translated from the Greek word "estai" which is a future, indicative verb. This verb in the future tense and indicative mood indicates that those in the lake of fire will have the right to the tree of life as the indicative mood conveys a statement of fact and the future tense conveys that this action/right will occur in the future. Furthermore, the Greek word eiselthōsin translated as "shall enter" is a aorist, subjunctive verb. When the subjunctive mood is used in a purpose or result clause, then the action should not be thought of as a possible result, but should be viewed as a definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action. Thus as a result of the action of washing their robes, the sinners in the lake of fire will DEFINITELY experience the outcome of shall enter the city by its gates.

Thus your claim that no one gets a second chance in the lake of fire is false as this passage evidences otherwise. Those dogs, sorcerers, sexually immoral, etc. have to go through the lake of fire and wash their robes in order to have the right to the tree of life and enter the city gates.

Goodness what nonsense! How does any of this address the posts and all the scriptures shared with you in post # 462 linked and post # 533 linked, that discusses the scripture contexts you leave out of REVELATION 22:11-15 and the GREEK tranlsation of commandments and washed robes to the application of the verb tenses in REVELATION 22:14 including the participle tense of "plynontes" as applied to the two tranlations shared with you? The linked posts above were provided to prove your interpretation and application of REVELATION 22:14 is in error and you have simply hand waived and ignored what was shared with you. Your only showing you have misapplied context and are confused within the translations of the kjv and newer tranlations that even the scholars do not agree on and proven you do not understand the Koine Greek and REVELATION 22. Anyhow I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Your only repeating yourself without addressing anything I have shared with you. I wish you well but as you can see from the scriptures your trying to read into the scriptures what they do not say or teach which is not biblical as proven in the linked posts above. You are free to believe what you want. We all answer only to God come judgement day for which the scriptures teach there is no more second chances to those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 25:31-41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; MATTHEW 7:13-27; REVELATION 22:11-12.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: mmksparbud
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
Okay apparently you don't know Greek so I'll help you out.
Let's get some things straight first.
The new heaven and new earth appear (Rev 21:1) and the new Jerusalem comes down from heaven (Rev 21:2). The saints live in the New Jerusalem and obviously they have no need to wash their robes as they have already washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb (Rev 7:14).
With that understanding we come to Rev 22:14 which states:
Blessed are those washing their robes, that their right will be to the tree of life, and they shall enter into the city by the gates. (BLB)

We know that this verse cannot be referring to the saints living in the New Jerusalem because they have already washed their robes. The word for "wash" in v.14 is plynontes, which is a present tense participle accurately parsed as "washing." So the germane question is: Since the saved saints in the city have already washed their robes, who are the persons still washing their robes? There is only one group of people other than the saints and that is the group of people who live outside the city in the lake of fire as described in the very next verse.
Outside are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and everyone loving and practicing falsehood. Rev 22:15 (BLB)

Thus v.14 refers to v.15 as they are the only ones yet to finish washing their robes as those in the city have already washed their robes. The sinners in the lake of fire are the only ones washing/plynontes their robes. V.14 states they are "blessed" for washing their robes. V.14 states their right "will be" to the tree of life. "Will be" is translated from the Greek word "estai" which is a future, indicative verb. This verb in the future tense and indicative mood indicates that those in the lake of fire will have the right to the tree of life as the indicative mood conveys a statement of fact and the future tense conveys that this action/right will occur in the future. Furthermore, the Greek word eiselthōsin translated as "shall enter" is a aorist, subjunctive verb. When the subjunctive mood is used in a purpose or result clause, then the action should not be thought of as a possible result, but should be viewed as a definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action. Thus as a result of the action of washing their robes, the sinners in the lake of fire will DEFINITELY experience the outcome of shall enter the city by its gates.

Thus your claim that no one gets a second chance in the lake of fire is false as this passage evidences otherwise. Those dogs, sorcerers, sexually immoral, etc. have to go through the lake of fire and wash their robes in order to have the right to the tree of life and enter the city gates.

tenor.gif
tenor.gif
tenor.gif
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.