THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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ClementofA

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Now I have repeatedly asked you and those who believe and teach Universalism where is the scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked will be receive eternal life after the second coming? - No scripture has been provided.

In truth "scripture has been provided" repeatedly such as the following which you don't believe:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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LoveGodsWord

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Gobs of gobbledygook are NOT Gods Word
Then I suggest you stop posting it dear Fine. Leave the gampling lady of second chances she will only lead all who follow her away from God and his Word
 
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LoveGodsWord

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New material was added. Did you not see it here:

2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible. Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

Regarding the mistranslation "everlasting" or "eternal" in 2 Thess.1:9: "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") –properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. ??????? (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

A drunkard can be destroyed by alcohol and later recover. So what if the wicked are "destroyed". What Love Omnipotent destroys He can restore. Jesus said, Destroy this temple and in 3 days i will raise it up (Jn.2:19, paraphrase). King Neb's soul was so destroyed by the Saviour of all mankind that he ate grass like an animal for 7 years until God restored him by destroying his destruction. So can you not see that the destruction of which you speak is no - proof - for the endless annihilation Hitler job on anyone. And why would Love Crucified want to sadistically torment (Rev.14:11; 20:10) anyone He intended to blot out of existence for eternity? Your theology makes - no - sense!



Further re 2 Thess.1:9, Jason Pratt said:

"Which definitely refers to hopeful punishment (and expected salvation in the same day of the Lord to come), not annihilation, when Paul uses it to talk about handing the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy over to Satan for the whole-destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5:5.

"Paul compares it to a birth-pang, which is dangerous but hardly hopeless annihilation (and is generally regarded as very hopeful) at 1 Thess 5:3 (talking about the same day to come).

"Paul uses the term to describe people killed by God in the past at 1 Cor 10:10, which can hardly be annihilation unless the resurrection of the evil as well as the good is denied.

"2 Thess 1:9 uses phrases similar to those found in Isaiah 2, talking about the same coming event, which is part of a block of prophecy where those wholly ruined aren't annihilated, but eventually repent of their sins and go to the "survivors" of God's wrath to be reconciled to God, which God accepts washing them clean with spirit and with fire. (Isaiah 4.) Again, far from a result of hopeless annihilation.

"2 Thess 1 is actually one of my scriptural testimonies 'for' universal salvation."

Annihilation places huge doubt on Universalism

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."




Are posts 1364-1367 your work? What is the source or link? Are you plagiarizing again?

Can you sum up the argument of those 4 long cut & pastes from somewhere, or have you not even read them yourself?

Exactly how do they refute anything i've posted?

Did the readers in Paul's day require that much commentary to understand the passage?

Do you expect anyone at this forum willl?



It takes 4 huge cut/paste posts from somewhere to explain that?

The word you posted is "eternal" but i posted translations saying "eonian", etc. So how can you say i "provide a few different translation which do not effect the meaning of the Greek"? If the punishment is only eonian and not eternal, then it can be finite as universalsm says it is.



Then why do you use the translation "eternal" at 2 Thess.1:9?

What is this supposed to mean: "the process of destruction to aionias is not everlsating".

That's your opinion. OTOH my view is that there is nothing "eternal" in 2 Thess.1:9, for "eternal" is not the meaning of the word aionios there. So, as i said, the passage is perfectly harmonious with universalism.

A drunkard can be destroyed by alcohol and later recover. So what if the wicked are "destroyed". What Love Omnipotent destroys He can restore. Jesus said, Destroy this temple and in 3 days i will raise it up (Jn.2:19, paraphrase). King Neb's soul was so destroyed by the Saviour of all mankind that he ate grass like an animal for 7 years until God restored him by destroying his destruction. So can you not see that the destruction of which you speak is no - proof - for the endless annihilation Hitler job on anyone. And why would Love Crucified want to sadistically torment (Rev.14:11; 20:10) anyone He intended to blot out of existence for eternity? Your theology makes - no - sense!

Oh goodness you had to do it again didn't you. You simply cut and pasted the same content that was just responded to without addressing anything in the post that addressed this content again. You really have no reply to anything I have posted to you do you accept to repost the same thing over and over from other peoples websites. Ok I see your not interested in a discussion that is true. Let me know when you want to discuss the content of my posts and we will have a discussion. You simply ignored and did not address post #

.................

(1) 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 - you post here you have not addressed in
post # 1363; post # 1364; post # 1365; post # 1366; post # 1367.
All you provided above is a cut and paste repitition of your earlier post without addressing any or my other posts from which you provide a few different translation which do not effect the meaning of the Greek to which the above posts prove in detail. I am still waiting for a response to the above posts to which are ignored in favour of a repeated cut and paste of the same content you provided that is already addressed above. I have already agreed that the process of destruction to aionias is not everlsating as the greek rendering of the scanned script already provided is...

"Who the penalty shall suffer (context to the wicked and God's vengence) destruction eternal from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength" (see below scanned image)

7598291.png


It is the destruction that is eternal not the act of destruction that many of the eternal burning hell people believe. So no you have not provided any harmony to what UNIVERSALISM teaches at all to what I have been sharing with you.

..............

In ROMANS 5:18-19 you try and make claims that these scriptures are talking about JESUS saving the unrepentant wicked. ROMANS 5:18-19 is teachings that all men have sinned and condemned in sin but that through the act of God's grace and justice and judgement in sending his own son to die on the cross for our sins ALL who accept the gift of Gods' grace by faith in Christ can be reconcilled to God and receive God's forgiveness. The MANY here are the saved. Note it does not say ALL will be saved and there is no scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked will be saved anywhere in these scriptures. Your just repeating yourself without addressing anything shared with you. This has already been addressed in many times in this thread with one of the most recent in post # 1429 linked. Your simply cutting and pasting the same posts from websites and repeating yourself while ignoring what is shared with you again.

..............

Your claims to LAMANTATION 3 being to the unrepentant wicked has been proven false already by showing the context you leave out of the text you use to try and claim reconciliation of the unrepentant wicked. LAMANTATIONS 3 scripture context you leave out show that the chapter is about ISRAEL that has sinned against God and retuned to God in repentance and that reconciliation of ISRAEL (God's people) takes place after repentance.

Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...

[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:

[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.

Your just repeating yourself and your same cut and paste without addressing this post addressing your claims here multiple time. The last more detailed reply was posted in post # 1392 linked here. Your just repeating yourself again with continious cut and past without responding to the scripture that prove context that your application of them is in error.

..................

No seriously dear friend everything you have posted here has been addressed with scripture in detail showing that what you are claiming in regards to UNIVERSALISM and all the wicked being saved after the second coming is in error as the scriptures provided are divorced from context and are not references to the unrepentant wicked but to the repentant saved before the second coming. Now I have repeatedly asked you and those who believe and teach Universalism where is the scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked will be receive eternal life after the second coming? - No scripture has been provided.

Yet the scriptures alone clearly teach what you do not have scripture for, and that is that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9. The unrepentant wicked are a part of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29 who do not receive life, neither are they written in the lambs book of life *REVELATION 20:12-15.

The unrepentant wicked because of unrepentant sin and the rejection of God's grace though faith in the blood of God's dear son that pays the penalty for their sins they pay the penalty for their own sins. The unreptentant wicked receive God's justice and judgment for their own sins and the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and do dispite to the spirit of Gods grace *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-39.

All the above is clearly shown in the scripture. The wicked at the resurrection of condemnation receive the wages of their own sins that JESUS offered to bare for them to reconcile them to God which is the second death *REVELATION 21:7-8.

All your doing here is repeating your cutting and pasting of the same content your spamming in this OP without addressing any of my responses to you.

Did you want to address the content of my posts now dear friend or are you going to spam your website info here like your friend does without have a discussion?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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All fallen men begin as unrepentant enemies of God till they are saved.



There is no mention of faith or acceptance in those verses. It's besides the point & already addressed elsewhere.



Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

The first "many" in v.19 are all fallen "constituted sinners".

Paul makes a parallel with how "many" will be saved in Rom.5:19b.

IOW it's the exact same "many" referred to in Rom.5:19a.

So all will be saved.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

There in v.18 we see that the extent of condemnation is as extensive as the justification. Justification is for all. Paul doesn't say "for ALL MANKIND", except Judas, Pharoah, & wicked people who died in their sins.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

If Paul didn't wish to parallel both occurrences of "THE MANY" in verse 19, then he could have said "some" or "few" instead of "THE MANY" in the second occurrence. Clearly he was teaching by the parallel of two occurrences of "THE MANY" (v.19) that all those who "were made sinners" will "be made righteous".

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever [or annihilated for eternity].

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)
All you have done here is spammed the same cut and paste without addressing anything posted in from the post you are quoting from when the post you are quoting from proves your claims here that ROMANS 5:18-19 means the unrepentant wicked is in error.

In ROMANS 5:18-19 you try and make claims that these scriptures are talking about JESUS saving the unrepentant wicked. ROMANS 5:18-19 is teachings that all men have sinned and condemned in sin but that through the act of God's grace and justice and judgement in sending his own son to die on the cross for our sins ALL who accept the gift of Gods' grace by faith in Christ can be reconcilled to God and receive God's forgiveness. The MANY here are the saved. Note it does not say ALL will be saved and there is no scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked will be saved anywhere in these scriptures. Your just repeating yourself without addressing anything shared with you. This has already been addressed in many times in this thread with one of the most recent in post # 1429 linked. Your simply cutting and pasting the same posts from websites and repeating yourself while ignoring what is shared with you again.

The sad thing I beleive is that your propagating a false teaching from your websites here...
ClementofA said: "It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."
The quote above is beyond me and against nearly every scripture in the entire bible. Your whole post and claims here are brought to nothing with the simple scripture that say "whatsoever is not of faith is sin" *ROMANS 14:23 and that "we are saved by grace through faith" EPHESIANS 2:8 and "without faith is it impossible to please him for he that comes to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" *HEBREWS 11:6

ROMANS 3:28 Therefore we conclude that A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH without the deeds of the law.

What is it that you are teaching dear friend? It is not the Word of God here. If you have no faith you have no salvation because whatsoever is not of faith is sin and we are saved by Gods grace through faith. Salvation is a free gift of God's grace. We hold out the hand of faith to receive it.

Please address my posts as I do with yours instaed of ignoring them and cutting and pasting the same content dear friend if you wish to have a discussion with me please.

Hope this helps.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You're doing the same thing you do here with Eccl.1:13:
Nonsense. Please address the post you are quoting from. You claim that LAMENTATION 3 is in reference to the reconciliation of God to the unrepentant wicked. I believe this was very clearly refuted by showing the context of LAMENTATION 3 you ignired which shows in the scriptures that the scriptures are talking about REPENTANT ISRAEL not the unrepentant wicked. This is shown here....

[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:

[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.

Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...

Your just repeating yourself and your same cut and paste without addressing this post addressing your claims here multiple time. The last more detailed reply was posted in post # 1392 linked here. Your just repeating yourself again with continious cut and past without responding to the scripture that prove context that your application of them is in error. Let's be honest dear friend so we can have a closer walk with JESUS. What is it in the scriptures provided you above that you do not believe is true that has been shared with you here?
You are committing the error of - using context as a pretext to not believe the plain text - (of what is written). For example, you deny Eccl.1:13 is speaking about "men" in general and insist it only regards Israel or believers: Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. God speaks of "the sons of humanity", not believers only as you would change His word. Shouldn't changing His word worry you? I think i'll take God at His word, instead of your alteration of it: Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Goodness what nonsense. Now your making things up. If your not sure why I have said things perhaps you can ask? I do not deny any such thing. What I deny is your application of the scriptures here in context to what you posted earlier when you were trying to argue that God's salvation was in context to the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. Even the context of ECCLESIASTES 1:13 was to Soloman and what he was learning. Not what the unrepentant heathen learns. These words being handed down to God's people in the scriptures.
Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.
Goodness again you go again trying to make an application to the unrepentant wicked. Do the unrepentant wicked have a positive outcome after the second coming when the scriptures teach that they are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and receive Gods vengence and punishment of the second death in the lake of fire? This is the part I was disagreeing with because your application is not biblical and against the scriptures.
I did address them by stating this:You can either believe some human opinion, like that of John Gill that you posted, or you can choose to believe Lam.3:31-33 above. Your choice. Up to you. And the context doesn't change this: Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER: 32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. 33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)
NONSENSE! This is what I was responding to. You just ignored what I posted and reposted the same content that I was responding to without addressing my post that shows your claims to LAMANTATION 3 being to the unrepentant wicked was false. It was shown to be in error by showing the context you leave out of the text you use to try and claim reconciliation of the unrepentant wicked. LAMANTATIONS 3 scripture context you leave out show that the chapter is about ISRAEL that has sinned against God and retuned to God in repentance and that reconciliation of ISRAEL (God's people) takes place after repentance. (see LAMENTATIONS 3:26-42). Your just repeating your cut an pastes without addressing anything posted to you.

Why don't you try responding to my posts instead of repeatedly cuting and pasting the same old things over and over that are addressed in the posts you are ignoring? Come and have a discussion with me dear friend.

Hope this helps.
 
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ClementofA

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Nonsense. Post 1430 linked does indeed refute your claims

Read the scripture. MATTHEW 1:21 says And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: FOR HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.

The key word here is HIS PEOPLE. This is to the saved not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked. Happy to add to this though.

In context "His people" (Mt.1:21) refers to the nation "Israel" (Mt.2:6) of the Old Testament:

"And thou Bethlehem, &c.] Micah 5:2. The quotation nearly corresponds with the Hebrew text, the literal translation of which is: But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little to be among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me he that is to be ruler in Israel."

Matthew 2:6 Commentaries: 'AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH, ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH; FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.'"

"His people. Israel after the flesh (cf. John 1:11; Luke 2:10; contrast John 1:29; John 4:42),..."

Matthew 1:21 Commentaries: "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

So people like those of Israel who were stoned to death in the Old Testament & Judas, who betrayed Christ, & all the Pharisees who rejected Him, etc.


God's ISRAEL according to the new covenant are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. ISRAEL according to the new covenant are no longer those in the flesh but in the Spirit *ROMANS 9:6-8. There is no more Jew or greek all are one in Christ *GALATIANS 3:28-29; If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL then we have no part in God's new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27 by faith in God's Word. God's ISRAEL according to the scriptures in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow God's Word.

When the angel spoke in Mt.1:21 Paul was not even saved & Romans had not even been written. Who would Mary or Matthew's readers have understood by "My people...Israel" (Mt.1:21; 2:6)?

The scriptures shown in MATTHEW 1:21 are in reference to the saved not the wicked and they do not say anywhere that the wicked will be saved at the second coming. The scriptures teach that the wicked are destroyed after the second coming (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 22:11-15; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:19-27 etc etc..)

Matthew 1:21 doesn't say: He shall save the saved from their sins.

Is that even possible? Does it even make sense?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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In truth "scripture has been provided" repeatedly such as the following which you don't believe:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

All you have done here again dear friend is cut and pasted and repeated yourself again. NONE of these scripture say that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming. This is proven by showing the context of each of the scripture here which have already been addressed in another post you ignore that shows the context of each of these scriptures in post # 1430 here linked. All you have done here is repeated yourself without addressing any of the content of the posts shared with you the prove you or your website has ignored scripture context.

Now dear friend. Let's be honest. You have not provided a single scripture here that says anywhere in this thread that the unrepentant wicked after the second coming receive everlasting life. Yet the scriptures alone clearly teach what you do not have scripture for, and that is that the unrepentant wicked are destroyed after the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9. The unrepentant wicked are a part of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29 who do not receive life, neither are they written in the lambs book of life *REVELATION 20:12-15.

The unrepentant wicked because of unrepentant sin and the rejection of God's grace though faith in the blood of God's dear son that pays the penalty for their sins they pay the penalty for their own sins. The unreptentant wicked receive God's justice and judgment for their own sins and the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and do dispite to the spirit of Gods grace *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-39.

All the above is clearly shown in the scripture. The wicked at the resurrection of condemnation receive the wages of their own sins that JESUS offered to bare for them to reconcile them to God which is the second death *REVELATION 21:7-8.

All your doing here is repeating your cutting and pasting of the same content your spamming in this OP without addressing any of my responses to you.

Now what is UNIVERSALISM teaching dear friend? It is not the bible. Something to pray about don't you think dear friend?

Hope this helps
 
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LoveGodsWord

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In context "His people" (Mt.1:21) refers to the nation "Israel" (Mt.2:6) of the Old Testament:

"And thou Bethlehem, &c.] Micah 5:2. The quotation nearly corresponds with the Hebrew text, the literal translation of which is: But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little to be among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me he that is to be ruler in Israel."

Matthew 2:6 Commentaries: 'AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH, ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH; FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.'"

"His people. Israel after the flesh (cf. John 1:11; Luke 2:10; contrast John 1:29; John 4:42),..."

Matthew 1:21 Commentaries: "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

So people like those of Israel who were stoned to death in the Old Testament & Judas, who betrayed Christ, & all the Pharisees who rejected Him, etc.

When the angel spoke in Mt.1:21 Paul was not even saved & Romans had not even been written. Who would Mary or Matthew's readers have understood by "My people...Israel" (Mt.1:21; 2:6)?


Matthew 1:21 doesn't say: He shall save the saved from their sins.

Is that even possible? Does it even make sense?
WRONG!

What part of MATTHEW 1:21 do you not understand when it says..
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: FOR HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS".

Who are HIS PEOPLE dear friend; and how does he save them from their sins? MATTHEW 1:21 is in reference to those who believe and follow Gods' Word or are God's people not the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. They are saved by the BLOOD of JESUS. The unrepentant wicked reject the BLOOD of JESUS!

HIS PEOPLE is in reference to ISRAEL who in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. ISRAEL according to the new covenant are no longer those in the flesh but in the Spirit *ROMANS 9:6-8. There is no more Jew or greek all are one in Christ *GALATIANS 3:28-29; If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL then we have no part in God's new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27 by faith in God's Word. God's ISRAEL according to the scriptures in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow God's Word.

The scriptures shown in MATTHEW 1:21 are in reference to the saved not the wicked and they do not say anywhere that the wicked will be saved at the second coming. The scriptures teach that the wicked are destroyed after the second coming (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 22:11-15; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:19-27 etc etc..)

You have not addressed anything in the post and the scriptures provided. MATTHEW 1:21 is in reference to God saving his PEOPLE who the bible defines as all those who believe and follow God's Word, NOT the unrepentant wicked who deny it.

Hope this helps.
 
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ClementofA

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More repitition cut and paste of the same post over and over dear friend already addressed elsewhere throughout this thread.

No one has ever gone through the following, point by point, and addressed every point.

If you don't have the time to read carefully, study & address posts refuting your viewpoint, then maybe this discussion is not for you.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Let's be clear. It is not my view that the unrepentant wicked will be saved at the time of the second coming. This is in response to your query: "Does the scripture claim what you are claiming that the unrepentant wicked at the second coming will be saved?"

Also i would point out that Col.1:20 says peace has been made already through the blood of the cross:

16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross", how can God let anyone end up being tortured or terminated from existence forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?

"I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling
but demons. :idea: Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":

Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:

Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. :idea: Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

"...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."

"...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
http://blogs.christianpost.com/amba...e-heart-of-gods-grand-plan-for-creation-738/

"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).

There is a parallel here:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

It's quite astonishing that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.


Nowhere in any of these scriptures does it say or teach or imply that the unrepentant wicked who do not accept the gift of JESUS death and blood will be saved and receive everlasting life.

The reconciliation of all (Col.1:16, 20) implies the same.

The ALL here is conditional to receiving God's gift of grace through faith *EPEHSIANS 2:8-9.

Col.1:20 speaks of the reconciliation of all. Of course reconciliation implies faith. So your remark is irrelevant. Paul's argument excludes no one. It doesn't rule out anyone being reconciled because they died without faith.

Ephesians 2 isn't the context of Colossians 1, so why are you posting out of context material? Deal with the context of Colossians 1 & my comments about it, if you want to discuss that passage.


See also these scriptures here linked. The reconcilliation in COLOSSIANS 1:20 is to all those who believe and follow His Word which are the condtions of God's grace.

Again the reconciliation of all implies the faith & salvation of all. Therefore Paul has no need to even mention faith in Col.1:16 & 20.
 
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ClementofA

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What is it that you think you addressed in that post?

As you can see from my post #1474 it was in response to your conclusion remarks. The rest of your post just seems like a mass of scripture quotes with some scribbling leading to nothing i could see in support of your endless annihilation view. I'd suggest rewriting it. As for the following it addresses the false notion that Heb.10:26 denies universalism by the words about no more sacrifice for sins:

No more sacrifice for sins applies to those forgiven as well:

Heb.10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. (NASB)
Heb.10:18 But where there [is] remission of these, [there is] no longer a sacrifice for sin. (DBY)
Heb.10:18 and where forgiveness of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (YLT)

The meaning is not that if they sin they can't be forgiven. They can (1 Jn.1:9). The same applies to those of v.26. So your argument is a failure.

The meaning of no more sacrifice for sin is that Christ's sacrifice ended all sacrifices for sin. There are no more. There will be no more.

His sacrifice is sufficient to take away everyone's sins & that is exactly what it will do:

John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Taking away the world's sin (Jn.1:29) shall make the world sinless. So, yeah, all will be saved.

The post you are quoting from proves what you are claiming in this post is false. No one has said to you anywhere that if someone sins they cannot be forgiven.

That's besides the point. So irrelevant.

This is a strawman argument no one has ever made. If I have made no claims that if someone sins they cannot be forgiven why pretent that I have? This is not honest.

Clearly you're not understanding my point.

HEBREWS 10:26-39 was posted simply to show the fate of those who continue in known unrepentant sin

Show me a verse where you think it denies universalism in Hebrews 10 & why.

nothing more and nothing less and the linked post here demonstrates a detailed response through the scriptures to show the context you ignore here in relation to the unrepentant wicked receiving God's judgements after the second coming.

I already know very well that the "unrepentant wicked receiving God's judgements after the second coming". Now how about we get back to the topic of universalism vs annihilationism. Isn't that the subject of this thread?
 
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ClementofA

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Not at all dear friend you disregared context. All you have done here is repeat the same post without addressing anything shared with you.

Why do you not address the content of my post if you disagree?

There's nothing to address. I read what you said & it is evident that what i said - trumps -and overrules what you said. You haven't refuted my points & i'll be happy to let the readers decide between the two. If you have no further remarks, then this discussion on 1 Cor.3:15 is done.

What you've done with 1 Cor.3:15 is like what you did with Eccl.1:13 & Lam.3:31-33, Col.1:20, Rom.5:18-19, etc. As I said:

If i write a book titled the "salvation of humanity" and it has one sentence stating "the demons will be saved", you err to argue that the context is about the "salvation of humanity" not "demons will be saved", so the statement that "demons will be saved" is really not having any "application" to "demons will be saved", but is actually about the "salvation of humanity".

That's exactly what you've done with several passages i've quoted.

You are committing the error of - using context as a pretext to not believe the plain text - (of what is written). For example, you deny Eccl.1:13 is speaking about "men" in general and insist it only regards Israel or believers.
 
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ClementofA

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Repitition already addressed elsewhere.

Incorrect.

Yep true.

No. Death is destroyed is the last thing destroyed with the unrepentant wicked *1 CORINTHIANS 15:25-26.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

That God may become all "IN ALL" (v.26), even all who were "in Adam (v.22) & shall be "in Christ" (v.22).

1 Cor.15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (CLV)

No. Your confused here dear friend. The righteouss saints that are dead in Christ are resurrected at the second coming *THESSALONIANS 4:14-18 while the wicked that are alive at the second coming are killed by the brightness of his coming * 2 THESSALONIANS 2:8 and await the resurrection of condemnation (second resurrection) and the second death *REVELATION 20:6. All Christs enemies are put under his feet at the second coming. At this time the saints reign with Christ 1000 years *REVELATION 20:2-15 and at the end of this reign the unrepentant wicked dead are resurrected (second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29) to receive the judgement of the wicked and the second death in the lake of fire. At that time all the wicked are destroyed as is death itself and the devil and his angels *REVELATION 20:14; REVELATION 21:8; MATTHEW 25:31-41. No where does it say in the scriptures you provided that the wicked are living together with the saints at the second coming.

What your last sentence states is irrelevant. I never claimed any such thing.

The fact is that the wicked are still alive in the lake of fire even after the new earth is created, not destroyed out of existence as you claim. Shouldn't you start believing Scripture:

Rev.22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. 15 But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.


See above the Kings of the earth in REVELATION 21:24 are the righteous KINGS, the saved and those who took part in the first resurrection. V24.. the nations of them which are saved..

KJV & a couple others have "saved", but the vast majority do not:

Revelation 21:24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

"—A, B, Vulgate, Coptic, and Andreas read "(the nations shall walk) by means of her light": omitting "of them which are saved."

"...of them which are saved] Should be omitted."

Revelation 21:24 Commentaries: The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

see also v27 there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whatever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Of course the wicked won't be allowed in the New Jerusalem, until they are saved & added to those who have "life", which will be "all":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

For Gods saints. Those who took part in the first resurrection.

The leaves of the tree are for the "healing" of the nations. The saints are immortal & need no "healing". Only those in the lake of fire do. Therefore they are still there alive, being tormented (Rev.14:10; 20:10; 22:14-15), till they are "healed", saved & made immortal as the rest (1 Cor.15:22).

1 CORINTHIANS 15:28 is in relation to the enemies of JESUS being under his feet in sujection to him.

As scripture states (Rom.5:10, etc) we, fallen sinners, have - all - been His enemies:

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

God as "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) has nothing to do with authority, but God "in" every being who ever lived. "To say that "all in all" signifies "the manifestation of God's supremacy"...is very far indeed from the truth...When we say "Christ is my all," what do we mean? That He is our Lord? Yes, and our Saviour and Friend and our Lover, our Wisdom and our Righteousness, and our Holiness--He is everything to us!...And that is just what God wishes to be and what He will be!...Will He be this only in some? No! He will be All in all!...we have said that when the last enemy [death] is abolished, then the Son abdicates and God becomes All in all. If there were still enmity we might imagine God being over all, but with all enmity gone, it is easy to see how He can become All in all...The "kingdom" is given up to the Father, after all sovereignty and authority and power have been abrogated. What kind of a "supremacy" will God "fully manifest" which has no power, no authority, no sovereignty? Thank God, all these elements, which characterized government during the eons, will be utterly unnecessary when the Son of God is finished with His "mediatorial" work. Instead of God's supremacy being fully manifested at that time, it will be entirely absent, and God, as Father, will guide His family by the sweet constraint of love."

Hmm what?

The abolishing of death means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Nonsense. The second death is eternal.

You believe the lake of fire is eternal? Does the Bible tell you so? Where?


Now they reap the wages of their sins which is DEATH because they rejected the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23

Do you think "death" there means eternal destruction as in endless annihilation?
 
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ClementofA

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Oh goodness you had to do it again didn't you. You simply cut and pasted the same content that was just responded to without addressing anything in the post that addressed this content again.

Actually, look again, cause that's what i didn't do, but you did do:

Yep true.

No. Death is destroyed is the last thing destroyed with the unrepentant wicked *1 CORINTHIANS 15:25-26.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

That God may become all "IN ALL" (v.26), even all who were "in Adam (v.22) & shall be "in Christ" (v.22).

1 Cor.15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (CLV)

No. Your confused here dear friend. The righteouss saints that are dead in Christ are resurrected at the second coming *THESSALONIANS 4:14-18 while the wicked that are alive at the second coming are killed by the brightness of his coming * 2 THESSALONIANS 2:8 and await the resurrection of condemnation (second resurrection) and the second death *REVELATION 20:6. All Christs enemies are put under his feet at the second coming. At this time the saints reign with Christ 1000 years *REVELATION 20:2-15 and at the end of this reign the unrepentant wicked dead are resurrected (second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29) to receive the judgement of the wicked and the second death in the lake of fire. At that time all the wicked are destroyed as is death itself and the devil and his angels *REVELATION 20:14; REVELATION 21:8; MATTHEW 25:31-41. No where does it say in the scriptures you provided that the wicked are living together with the saints at the second coming.

What your last sentence states is irrelevant. I never claimed any such thing.

The fact is that the wicked are still alive in the lake of fire even after the new earth is created, not destroyed out of existence as you claim. Shouldn't you start believing Scripture:

Rev.22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. 15 But outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.


See above the Kings of the earth in REVELATION 21:24 are the righteous KINGS, the saved and those who took part in the first resurrection. V24.. the nations of them which are saved..

KJV & a couple others have "saved", but the vast majority do not:

Revelation 21:24 By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

"—A, B, Vulgate, Coptic, and Andreas read "(the nations shall walk) by means of her light": omitting "of them which are saved."

"...of them which are saved] Should be omitted."

Revelation 21:24 Commentaries: The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.

see also v27 there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defiles, neither whatever works abomination, or makes a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Of course the wicked won't be allowed in the New Jerusalem, until they are saved & added to those who have "life", which will be "all":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

For Gods saints. Those who took part in the first resurrection.

The leaves of the tree are for the "healing" of the nations. The saints are immortal & need no "healing". Only those in the lake of fire do. Therefore they are still there alive, being tormented (Rev.14:10; 20:10; 22:14-15), till they are "healed", saved & made immortal as the rest (1 Cor.15:22).

1 CORINTHIANS 15:28 is in relation to the enemies of JESUS being under his feet in sujection to him.

As scripture states (Rom.5:10, etc) we, fallen sinners, have - all - been His enemies:

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

God as "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) has nothing to do with authority, but God "in" every being who ever lived. "To say that "all in all" signifies "the manifestation of God's supremacy"...is very far indeed from the truth...When we say "Christ is my all," what do we mean? That He is our Lord? Yes, and our Saviour and Friend and our Lover, our Wisdom and our Righteousness, and our Holiness--He is everything to us!...And that is just what God wishes to be and what He will be!...Will He be this only in some? No! He will be All in all!...we have said that when the last enemy [death] is abolished, then the Son abdicates and God becomes All in all. If there were still enmity we might imagine God being over all, but with all enmity gone, it is easy to see how He can become All in all...The "kingdom" is given up to the Father, after all sovereignty and authority and power have been abrogated. What kind of a "supremacy" will God "fully manifest" which has no power, no authority, no sovereignty? Thank God, all these elements, which characterized government during the eons, will be utterly unnecessary when the Son of God is finished with His "mediatorial" work. Instead of God's supremacy being fully manifested at that time, it will be entirely absent, and God, as Father, will guide His family by the sweet constraint of love."

Hmm what?

The abolishing of death means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


Nonsense. The second death is eternal.

You believe the lake of fire is eternal? Does the Bible tell you so? Where?


Now they reap the wages of their sins which is DEATH because they rejected the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23

Do you think "death" there means eternal destruction as in endless annihilation?
 
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ClementofA

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All you have done here is spammed the same cut and paste without addressing anything posted in from the post you are quoting from

Nonsense. That's what you just did. Not only here but several other times.

In ROMANS 5:18-19 you try and make claims that these scriptures are talking about JESUS saving the unrepentant wicked.

All fallen men begin as unrepentant enemies of God till they are saved.

ROMANS 5:18-19 is teachings that all men have sinned and condemned in sin but that through the act of God's grace and justice and judgement in sending his own son to die on the cross for our sins ALL who accept the gift of Gods' grace by faith in Christ can be reconcilled to God and receive God's forgiveness.

There is no mention of faith or acceptance in those verses. It's besides the point & already addressed elsewhere.

The MANY here are the saved.

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

The first "many" in v.19 are all fallen "constituted sinners".

Paul makes a parallel with how "many" will be saved in Rom.5:19b.

IOW it's the exact same "many" referred to in Rom.5:19a.

So all will be saved.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

There in v.18 we see that the extent of condemnation is as extensive as the justification. Justification is for all. Paul doesn't say "for ALL MANKIND", except Judas, Pharoah, & wicked people who died in their sins.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

If Paul didn't wish to parallel both occurrences of "THE MANY" in verse 19, then he could have said "some" or "few" instead of "THE MANY" in the second occurrence. Clearly he was teaching by the parallel of two occurrences of "THE MANY" (v.19) that all those who "were made sinners" will "be made righteous".

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever [or annihilated for eternity].

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)
 
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ClementofA

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You claim that LAMENTATION 3 is in reference to the reconciliation of God to the unrepentant wicked.


False & wrong! My claim is only in regard to the verses i posted & what i said about them, not the whole chapter.

I believe this was very clearly refuted by showing the context of LAMENTATION 3 you ignired which shows in the scriptures that the scriptures are talking about REPENTANT ISRAEL not the unrepentant wicked.

I didn't ignore them. I said they're irrelevant. And you've failed to prove that they can erase verses 31-33 from the KJV Bible or change them to speak of Israel instead of what they say:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Children of men is not Israel!

Why also did you leave this next paragraph out of your reply & not address it, (which destroys your arguments re Eccl.1:13; Lam.3:31-33, etc:

If i write a book titled the "salvation of humanity" and it has one sentence stating "the demons will be saved", you err to argue that the context is about the "salvation of humanity" not "demons will be saved", so the statement that "demons will be saved" is really not having any "application" to "demons will be saved", but is actually about the "salvation of humanity".

That's exactly what you've done with several passages i've quoted.

You are committing the error of - using context as a pretext to not believe the plain text - (of what is written). For example, you deny Eccl.1:13 is speaking about "men" in general and insist it only regards Israel or believers:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

God speaks of "the sons of humanity", not believers only as you would change His word. Shouldn't changing His word worry you? I think i'll take God at His word, instead of your alteration of it:

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".

We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

You can either believe some human opinion, like that of John Gill that you posted, or you can choose to believe Lam.3:31-33 above. Your choice. Up to you.

And the context doesn't change this:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

I have shown you already the context you left out of these scriptures that prove that LAMENTATIONS is in regards to ISRAEL'S (God's peoples) punishments for sin.

So what? Lam,3:31-33 KJV - EXPANDS upon that and goes further to include "men" in general. Or do you not believe what is in front of your eyes? Or do you think God cannot speak of both Israel and "men" in general in the same context? That would be limiting God, wouldn't it? Would you want to limit God? Should that not worry you?

If i write a book titled the "salvation of humanity" and it has one sentence stating "the demons will be saved", you err to argue that the context is about the "salvation of humanity" not "demons will be saved", so the statement that "demons will be saved" is really not having any "application" to "demons will be saved", but is actually about the "salvation of humanity".

That's exactly what you've done with several passages i've quoted.
 
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ClementofA

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WRONG!

What part of MATTHEW 1:21 do you not understand when it says..
"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: FOR HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS".

You just spammed your same post again without addresssing mine:

Nonsense. Post 1430 linked does indeed refute your claims

Read the scripture. MATTHEW 1:21 says And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: FOR HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.

The key word here is HIS PEOPLE. This is to the saved not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked. Happy to add to this though.

In context "His people" (Mt.1:21) refers to the nation "Israel" (Mt.2:6) of the Old Testament:

"And thou Bethlehem, &c.] Micah 5:2. The quotation nearly corresponds with the Hebrew text, the literal translation of which is: But thou Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little to be among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall come forth unto me he that is to be ruler in Israel."

Matthew 2:6 Commentaries: 'AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH, ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH; FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.'"

"His people. Israel after the flesh (cf. John 1:11; Luke 2:10; contrast John 1:29; John 4:42),..."

Matthew 1:21 Commentaries: "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."

So people like those of Israel who were stoned to death in the Old Testament & Judas, who betrayed Christ, & all the Pharisees who rejected Him, etc.


God's ISRAEL according to the new covenant are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. ISRAEL according to the new covenant are no longer those in the flesh but in the Spirit *ROMANS 9:6-8. There is no more Jew or greek all are one in Christ *GALATIANS 3:28-29; If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL then we have no part in God's new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27 by faith in God's Word. God's ISRAEL according to the scriptures in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow God's Word.

When the angel spoke in Mt.1:21 Paul was not even saved & Romans had not even been written. Who would Mary or Matthew's readers have understood by "My people...Israel" (Mt.1:21; 2:6)?

The scriptures shown in MATTHEW 1:21 are in reference to the saved not the wicked and they do not say anywhere that the wicked will be saved at the second coming. The scriptures teach that the wicked are destroyed after the second coming (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 22:11-15; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:19-27 etc etc..)

Matthew 1:21 doesn't say: He shall save the saved from their sins.

Is that even possible? Does it even make sense?
 
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FineLinen

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Leave the gampling lady of second chances she will only lead all who follow her away from God and his Word

iu


There is zero chance the "gampling lady" will affect any. There is one Potentate, His Name is the Lord Isous !
 
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FineLinen

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The labor of Christ will be efficacious for all for whom He died.

“He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied.” (Is. 53:2)

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto Me.” (John 12:32)

'If the Redeemer died for all men, can He be satisfied with the salvation of a part only?

Can He look back upon his work and say, it is well done? Will He not rather draw all men unto Him, by the power of His truth, and make them holy and happy forever?

Are we not authorized to expect such a result, from the fact, that He gave Himself a ransom for all?

And if they are all drawn unto Him, will they not all be saved?

When Jesus was born, the angel said to the fearful shepherds, “Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.” (Luke 2:10)

The tidings of the Redeemer’s birth, were certainly good tidings to all people. They should all hear these tidings, and to all they should be good tidings.

But how can this be, if a part of the human race are never to be benefited by the Redeemer’s sacrifice?

The people who heard Jesus preach said, “we have heard Him ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.” (John 4:42)

Jesus cannot be the Savior of the world, if the world will never be saved

What Jesus taught the Samaritans, that induced them to regard Him as the Savior of the world, may be inferred, 1st. from His conversation with the woman at the well of Jacob, (John 4) and 2nd, from the exclamation of the Samaritans, in the 42nd verse. He evidently did not preach to them the doctrine of endless misery; for would they have concluded from the fact of his preaching that doctrine, that he was THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD?”

John, the beloved disciple of Christ, said, “We have seen, and do testify, that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.” (1 John 4:14)

This is the same character that the Samaritans judged the Lord to possess, from his personal instruction.

(John 4:42) John says, “We have seen;” i.e. he knew it from his acquaintance with his Master.

And do testify. We cannot hide this truth; we will proclaim to men, that Jesus is the Savior of the world.

-Thomas Whittemore-
 
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LoveGodsWord

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There's nothing to address. I read what you said & it is evident that what i said - trumps -and overrules what you said. You haven't refuted my points & i'll be happy to let the readers decide between the two. If you have no further remarks, then this discussion on 1 Cor.3:15 is done.

What you've done with 1 Cor.3:15 is like what you did with Eccl.1:13 & Lam.3:31-33, Col.1:20, Rom.5:18-19, etc. As I said:

If i write a book titled the "salvation of humanity" and it has one sentence stating "the demons will be saved", you err to argue that the context is about the "salvation of humanity" not "demons will be saved", so the statement that "demons will be saved" is really not having any "application" to "demons will be saved", but is actually about the "salvation of humanity".

That's exactly what you've done with several passages i've quoted.

You are committing the error of - using context as a pretext to not believe the plain text - (of what is written). For example, you deny Eccl.1:13 is speaking about "men" in general and insist it only regards Israel or believers.

Nonsense. There is all the context to address in the post you were quoting from that proves 1 CORINTHIANS 3 is in reference to BELIEVERS and the saved not "UNBELIEVERS" and the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. Your claims is that these scriptures are to the unrepentant wicked but the post demonstrated through context you leave out that it is to the saved not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. All you did is ignore this as it show why your claims and interpretation of the scriptures are in error. Everything you have posted here is only repitition dear friend and already addressed in this thread and in other posts to you.

Why do you not address the content of my post if you disagree?

I posted earlier here showing the context of 1 CORINTHIANS 3:15 is to the "BROTHERS" in Christ v1 who are babes in Christ and his Word v2-3; fightings over who is of PAUL and APOLLOS v4-5. Then about PAUL and APOLLOS sharing the Gospel (the Word of God) in planting the seed (Word) and watering to give the increase to the church v6-8. Then we are all to be labourers together with Christ in sharing the gospel whose foundation is JESUS Christ v9-11.

Then we have PAUL stating whoever builds on this foundation (CHRIST) v11 in sharing the Gospel v12 his work in sharing the gospel will be manifest in the day of fire. Meaning those who are saved will not receive the destruction of the wicked (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9). Leads us to v14 that says If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward the foundation built upon here is to v11 Christ. Now context is established. This leads us to v15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. This is in reference to the work of sharing the gospel.

So no dear friend, this scripture does not teach anywhere that it is is reference to the wicked being saved at the second coming the context shows that it is a message to the believers, the context is to sharing Gods' Word and those being addressed as being babes in Gods' Word not sharing the gospel message correctly and pointing them to the foundation of the gospel which is JESUS CHRIST.

Now I am claiming here that you are disregarding CONTEXT again here and have provided the context you leave out above that shows that the scriptures here are talking about the saved not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked. If you disagree with the above why not show me where you beleive I am wrong? You can believe as you wish dear friend. This was only posted as a help to you. All you have done in your reponse here is to repeat yourself without addressing this post.

Do you have anything new to share that you already have not cut and pasted many times now? I guess not.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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No one has ever gone through the following, point by point, and addressed every point.

If you don't have the time to read carefully, study & address posts refuting your viewpoint, then maybe this discussion is not for you.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Let's be clear. It is not my view that the unrepentant wicked will be saved at the time of the second coming. This is in response to your query: "Does the scripture claim what you are claiming that the unrepentant wicked at the second coming will be saved?"

Also i would point out that Col.1:20 says peace has been made already through the blood of the cross:

16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross", how can God let anyone end up being tortured or terminated from existence forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?

"I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling
but demons. :idea: Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":

Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:

Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. :idea: Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

"...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."

"...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
http://blogs.christianpost.com/amba...e-heart-of-gods-grand-plan-for-creation-738/

"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).

There is a parallel here:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

It's quite astonishing that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.




The reconciliation of all (Col.1:16, 20) implies the same.



Col.1:20 speaks of the reconciliation of all. Of course reconciliation implies faith. So your remark is irrelevant. Paul's argument excludes no one. It doesn't rule out anyone being reconciled because they died without faith.

Ephesians 2 isn't the context of Colossians 1, so why are you posting out of context material? Deal with the context of Colossians 1 & my comments about it, if you want to discuss that passage.

Again the reconciliation of all implies the faith & salvation of all. Therefore Paul has no need to even mention faith in Col.1:16 & 20.

Nonsense dear friend. You have simply spammed more repititious cut and paste of the same post over and over dear friend already addressed elsewhere throughout this thread. Do you have anything new to share? None of the scriptures you provide here teach the wicked will be saved. 1 CORINTHIANS 15:28; COLOSSIANS 1:16 and COLOSSIANS 1:20 are in regards to Christs sacrifice for our sins and the reconciliation of the sins of the world. Nowhere in any of these scriptures does it say or teach or imply that the unrepentant wicked who do not accept the gift of JESUS death and blood will be saved and receive everlasting life. The ALL here is conditional to receiving God's gift of grace through faith *EPEHSIANS 2:8-9. See also these scriptures here linked. The reconcilliation in COLOSSIANS 1:20 is to all those who believe and follow His Word which are the condtions of God's grace. Please dear friend try reponding to the content of the posts shared with you here. Your just repeating yourself. Nothing in the post you have provided above says that the wicked will receive everlasting life after the second coming of JESUS. Your claims to "implied" meaning is simply code you reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or do not teach.

Now dear friend let's be honest. Where is the scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming? You have no scripture do you.

If you have no scripture that teaches that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming why dear friend do not you believe the scriptures that teach that after the second coming the unrepentant wicked are destroyed *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9?

Why do you not believe the scriptures that teach that the unreepentant wicked after the second coming are a part of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29 who do not receive life, neither are they written in the lambs book of life *REVELATION 20:12-15?

Why do you not believe the scriptures that teach after the second coming that the unrepentant wicked receive God's justice and judgment for their own sins and the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and do dispite to the spirit of Gods grace *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-39?

Why do you not believe the scriptures that teach after the second coming that the unrepentant wicked are a part of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29 who do not receive life, neither are they written in the lambs book of life *REVELATION 20:12-15?

Why do you not believe that the unrepentant wicked will receive the second death because they do not accept Christs dear for them on their behalf *REVELATION 21:7-8? If you do beleive that the unrepentant wicked partake of the second death where is the scripture that proves that God resurrected them to a third resurrection?

There is no scripture dear friend for your position let's be honest now

All the above is clearly shown in the scripture. The wicked at the resurrection of condemnation receive the wages of their own sins that JESUS offered to bare for them to reconcile them to God which is the second death *REVELATION 21:7-8.

All your doing here is repeating your cutting and pasting of the same content your spamming in this OP without addressing any of my responses to you.

Now what is UNIVERSALISM teaching dear friend? It is not the bible. Something to pray about don't you think dear friend?

All you have done here is cut and pasted the same old unbiblical content from someones website and repeated yourself again without addressing any of the content shared with you. NONE of these scripture you have posted say that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming.

This is proven by showing the context of each of the scripture here which have already been addressed in another post you ignored that shows the context of each of these scriptures in post # 1430 here linked. All you have done here is repeated yourself without addressing any of the content of the posts shared with you the prove you or your website has ignored scripture context.

Hope this helps
 
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