THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

[LoveGodsWord]

As you can see from my post #1474 it was in response to your conclusion remarks. The rest of your post just seems like a mass of scripture quotes with some scribbling leading to nothing i could see in support of your endless annihilation view. I'd suggest rewriting it. As for the following it addresses the false notion that Heb.10:26 denies universalism by the words about no more sacrifice for sins:

Nonsense you did not address any of the content that lead to the conclusions. You simply bypassed the content that lead to my conclusions and did not address them because the content demonstrated context that prove the conclusion I made. All you did was repost the some post without addressing any of the content in the post that prove the context you left out.

No more sacrifice for sins applies to those forgiven as well:
Heb.10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. (NASB)
Heb.10:18 But where there [is] remission of these, [there is] no longer a sacrifice for sin. (DBY)
Heb.10:18 and where forgiveness of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (YLT)
The meaning is not that if they sin they can't be forgiven. They can (1 Jn.1:9). The same applies to those of v.26. So your argument is a failure.
The meaning of no more sacrifice for sin is that Christ's sacrifice ended all sacrifices for sin. There are no more. There will be no more.
His sacrifice is sufficient to take away everyone's sins & that is exactly what it will do:
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Taking away the world's sin (Jn.1:29) shall make the world sinless. So, yeah, all will be saved.

Nonsense. Repetition again that says no where that all the unrepentant wicked will be saved. JOHN 1:29 is in reference to JOHN the baptist message that JESUS is the lamb of God whose sacrifice is for the sins of the world. It does not say anywhere that all the world will accept the gift of God's grace. Your interpreation of the scriptures here is unbiblical. The rest of your post here is addressed in detail in post # 1436 linked here. Your just repeating yourself dear friend and cutting and pasting and reposting the same content over and over spamming this thread without addressing any of the posts that prove why you are in error.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ The post you are quoting from proves what you are claiming in this post is false. No one has said to you anywhere that if someone sins they cannot be forgiven.

Your response here...

That's besides the point. So irrelevant.

Hmm and why is that when you were trying to make a strawman argument to say my post was saying that no one can receive God's forgiveness if they sin when I posted HEBREWS 10:26-39 as reference scriptures to show what happens to the unrepentant wicked not the repentant that return to God? Seems pretty relevant to me if your trying to make claims and accusations no one is making dont you?

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ HEBREWS 10:26-39 was posted simply to show the fate of those who continue in known unrepentant sin

Your response here...

Show me a verse where you think it denies universalism in Hebrews 10 & why.

No problem,

HEBREWS 10:26-39
[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
[27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

Note the above in context and those scriptures highlighted in red? Now the context here is the UNREPENTANT WICKED. Those who have turned away from Gods Word when they have been given a knowledge of the truth in order to live a life on known unrepentant sin.

PAUL states in v27 that those who continue in known UNREPETANT SIN will receive the JUDGEMENTS OF GOD and that those who continue in known UNREPENTANT SIN are GOD'S ADVERSARIES and that these ADVERSARIES (ENEMIES OF GOD) who reject His Word will receive the judgement of FIERY INDIGNATION AND WRATH which will DEVOUR them.

The Greek Word used here for DEVOUR from...

BDAG: DEVOUR ἐσθίω (Hom.+) and, mainly in the ptc., ἔσθω (Hom., also in other poets, rare in prose [Plut., Mor. p. 101d]; Coan ins, III B.C.: RHerzog, ARW 10, 1907, 400ff; 23; 27; 42; POslo 153, 15 [beg. II A.D.]; PGiss 80, 5; ostraca [BGU 1507, 14; 1508, 3; 4: III B.C.]; LXX; En 98:11 [?]. ἔσθων Lev 17:14; 1 Km 14:30; Sir 20:17; Mk 1:6; Lk 7:33f, 10:7 [the three last v.l.]; μὴ ἔσθετε Lev 19:26. ὅταν ἔσθητε Num 15:19. ἵνα ἔσθητε Lk 22:30. B-D-F §101; W-S. §15; Mlt-H. 238; Schwyzer, I 704 n. 1). Impf. ἤσθιον; fut. ἔδομαι LXX (Mel, P. 12, 80; 13, 83; 93, 697; 1 Cl 39:9; 57:6); 2 aor. ἔφαγον, w. extension of 1 aor. endings (B-D-F §84, 2; Rob. 333; cp. Schwyzer I 753f): 3 pl. ἐφάγοσαν Ps 77:29, 1 pl. ἐφάγαμεν 2 Km 19:43; fut. φάγομαι (B-D-F §74, 2; Mlt-H. 238), 2 sing. φάγεσαι Lk 17:8; Ruth 2:14 (W-S. §13, 6 and 17; B-D-F §87; Mlt-H. 198); pf. pass. ptc. acc. ἐδηδεμένους (Ath., R. 52, 20); pres. 3 sg. ἔσθεται Lev 11:34; Dt 12:22.
② to do away with completely, fig. extension of mng. 1 (Hom. et al.; LXX) consume, devour (of fire Il. 23, 182; Is 10:17; 26:11) πυρὸς ἐσθίειν μέλλοντος τ. ὑπεναντίους fire, which is about to consume the adversaries Hb 10:27 (Is 26:11). ὁ ἰὸς … φάγεται τ. σάρκας ὑμῶν ὡς πῦρ the rust will eat your flesh like fire Js 5:3 (cp. Aeschyl., Fgm. 253 φαγέδαινα [an ulcer] σάρκας ἐσθίει ποδός; Is 30:27 ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θυμοῦ ὡς πῦρ ἔδεται). B. 327.—DELG s.v. ἔδω. M-M. EDNT. TW.

So DEVOUR used in HEBREWS 10:27 means and the wicked will be ended and done away completely. Do these scriptures in HEBREWS 10:25-31 sound familiar? They should as the same fate of the wicked are outlined here...

2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10
[6], SEEING IT IS A RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO RECOMPENSE TRIBULATION TO THEM THAT TROUBLE YOU;
[7], AND TO YOU WHO ARE TROUBLED REST WITH US, WHEN THE LORD JESUS SHALL BE REVEALED FROM HEAVEN WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS,
[8], IN FLAMING FIRE TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST:
[9], WHO SHALL BE PUNISHED WITH EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION FROM THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD, AND FROM THE GLORY OF HIS POWER;
[10], WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, AND TO BE ADMIRED IN ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE BECAUSE OUR TESTIMONY AMONG YOU WAS BELIEVED IN THAT DAY.

Note the link between HEBREWS 10:26-27 and 2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9? Both are to the unrepentant wicked that do not know God. Both receive God's vengence. Both receive firey indignation from God which will devour or destroy them; bring them to an end and do away with them completely by fire. These scriptures also link to the second death of the wicked here...

REVELATION 21:7-8
[7], HE THAT OVERCOMES SHALL INHERIT ALL THINGS; AND I WILL BE HIS GOD, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON.
[8], BUT THE FEARFUL, AND UNBELIEVING, AND THE ABOMINABLE, AND MURDERERS, AND FORNICATORS, AND SORCERERS, AND IDOLATERS, AND ALL LIARS, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WHICH BURNS WITH FIRE AND BRIMSTONE: WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH.

Note dear friend the fate of the wicked agrees with HEBREWS 10:26-27 and 2 THESSANIANS 1:8-9 above. The fate of the wicked is everlasting death, in the lake of fire with the devil and his Angels *MATTHEW 15:41. There is no third resurrection of the unrepentant wicked and no scriptures to show this is there?

Now you know why....

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

@ClementofA well dear friend I had a look at the last few posts of yours and could see it is the same cut and paste to what has already been addressed with no new content that has already been addressed that you simply reposted without addressing my posts to you. If you want to have a discussion let's talk. If not then I can see you have nothing to talk about as all your doing is spamming the thread with the same content that has allready been addressed without responding to the posts and scriptures share with you that prove why I believe your claims and interpretation of these scriptures are in error. Unless you have something new to contribute and start addressing the content of my posts I feel our discussion has gone as far as it can. I do not believe anything you have posted here says that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming. I believe I have been able to clearly show why from the scriptures what you have shared here is in error by providing the context to the scriptures you have provided that disagree with your claims of interpretation. So unless you have something new to share to prove that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming and you start addressing the content of my posts and stop ignoring them and also answer my questions asked of you like I do for your posts. I do not see any point of continuing our conversation as we are not really having one. So in that case we will have to agree to disagree. I thank you though for the discussion and for sharing your view but has you can tell I do not see the teachings of UNIVERSALISM is biblical. I think though in what I have been sharing with you through the scriptures deep down inside you are starting to realise that there is some problems in what you believe. I would only ask you to prayerfully seek God's guidence through his Word and ask JESUS to guide and lead you instead of relying on the teachings of others and that you seek JESUS that he might guide you through his Word.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[FineLinen]

None of the scriptures you provide here teach the wicked will be saved. 1 CORINTHIANS 15:28; COLOSSIANS 1:16 and COLOSSIANS 1:20 are in regards to Christs sacrifice for our sins and the reconciliation of the sins of the world. Nowhere in any of these scriptures does it say or teach or imply that the unrepentant wicked who do not accept the gift of JESUS death and blood will be saved and receive everlasting life. The ALL here is conditional to receiving God's gift of grace through faith *EPEHSIANS 2:8-9. See also these scriptures here linked. The reconcilliation in COLOSSIANS 1:20 is to all those who believe

Col 1:16 - 20

"For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven."

 

[FineLinen]

Col. 1:16 - 20

"For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven."

 

[ClementofA]

Why do you not address the content of my post if you disagree?

There's really nothing to address. I'll say this, though: in the early verses of 1 Cor.3 Paul is speaking of the church, but that doesn't deny that he expands it to all men later. So what he was talking about in verses 1,2,3 etc is irrelevant. Therefore your remarks re such verses are irrelevant. And your argument is irrelevant to what i've posted. You might as well be talking about the OT law in the first 5 books of the OT. That's how much relevance your remarks have to what i've posted.

Hopefully that makes things clear for you. If not i can't make a person understand. It's actually not rocket science, but very simple what i'm saying. So i'd be surprised if you couldn't understand it, unless English is not your first language.

And my post did address your content. But, then, you just spammed the same material again, with the same question as above that i had already answered:

Not at all dear friend you disregared context. All you have done here is repeat the same post without addressing anything shared with you.

Why do you not address the content of my post if you disagree?

There's nothing to address. I read what you said & it is evident that what i said - trumps -and overrules what you said. You haven't refuted my points & i'll be happy to let the readers decide between the two. If you have no further remarks, then this discussion on 1 Cor.3:15 is done.

What you've done with 1 Cor.3:15 is like what you did with Eccl.1:13 & Lam.3:31-33, Col.1:20, Rom.5:18-19, etc. As I said:

If i write a book titled the "salvation of humanity" and it has one sentence stating "the demons will be saved", you err to argue that the context is about the "salvation of humanity" not "demons will be saved", so the statement that "demons will be saved" is really not having any "application" to "demons will be saved", but is actually about the "salvation of humanity".

That's exactly what you've done with several passages i've quoted.

You are committing the error of - using context as a pretext to not believe the plain text - (of what is written). For example, you deny Eccl.1:13 is speaking about "men" in general and insist it only regards Israel or believers.

Your repetition cut and paste again without addressing the content in my post to you again. Already answered here linked. I have addressed your above cut and paste post here more than once now. So will not be doing it agan.

You falsely claimed i disregarded the context. So i replied:

Clearly i regarded the context & proved my argument from the context:

Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It is the sins of "wood, hay & stubble" that are to be burned away:

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Whereas silver represents the redemption of Christ & those of silver are those who have faith in it, wood, hay & stubble have no silver in them, hence such have no faith.

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.

 

[ClementofA]

Nonsense dear friend. You have simply spammed more repititious cut and paste of the same post over and over dear friend already addressed elsewhere throughout this thread. Do you have anything new to share? None of the scriptures you provide here teach the wicked will be saved. 1 CORINTHIANS 15:28; COLOSSIANS 1:16 and COLOSSIANS 1:20 are in regards to Christs sacrifice for our sins and the reconciliation of the sins of the world. Nowhere in any of these scriptures does it say or teach or imply that the unrepentant wicked who do not accept the gift of JESUS death and blood will be saved and receive everlasting life. The ALL here is conditional to receiving God's gift of grace through faith *EPEHSIANS 2:8-9. See also these scriptures here linked. The reconcilliation in COLOSSIANS 1:20 is to all those who believe and follow His Word which are the condtions of God's grace. Please dear friend try reponding to the content of the posts shared with you here. Your just repeating yourself. Nothing in the post you have provided above says that the wicked will receive everlasting life after the second coming of JESUS. Your claims to "implied" meaning is simply code you reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or do not teach.

Easy to say, but you still haven't addressed or refuted the points made in the content of my post. I believe that is because you can't & are therefore purposely avoiding it. Which is evident by your long post with a number of verses (already addressed in this thread BTW) that do not discuss the subject, namely Col.1:16,20 & the context therein. So if you have nothing to add re Col.1:16, 20, then i am done discussing that passage with you. As i posted & you've never properly addressed, but only with that above:

More repitition cut and paste of the same post over and over dear friend already addressed elsewhere throughout this thread.

No one has ever gone through the following, point by point, and addressed every point.

If you don't have the time to read carefully, study & address posts refuting your viewpoint, then maybe this discussion is not for you.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Let's be clear. It is not my view that the unrepentant wicked will be saved at the time of the second coming. This is in response to your query: "Does the scripture claim what you are claiming that the unrepentant wicked at the second coming will be saved?"

Also i would point out that Col.1:20 says peace has been made already through the blood of the cross:

16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross", how can God let anyone end up being tortured or terminated from existence forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?

"I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling
but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":

Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:

Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

"...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."

"...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
http://blogs.christianpost.com/amba...e-heart-of-gods-grand-plan-for-creation-738/

"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).

There is a parallel here:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

It's quite astonishing that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Nowhere in any of these scriptures does it say or teach or imply that the unrepentant wicked who do not accept the gift of JESUS death and blood will be saved and receive everlasting life.

The reconciliation of all (Col.1:16, 20) implies the same.

The ALL here is conditional to receiving God's gift of grace through faith *EPEHSIANS 2:8-9.

Col.1:20 speaks of the reconciliation of all. Of course reconciliation implies faith. So your remark is irrelevant. Paul's argument excludes no one. It doesn't rule out anyone being reconciled because they died without faith.

Ephesians 2 isn't the context of Colossians 1, so why are you posting out of context material? Deal with the context of Colossians 1 & my comments about it, if you want to discuss that passage.

See also these scriptures here linked. The reconcilliation in COLOSSIANS 1:20 is to all those who believe and follow His Word which are the condtions of God's grace.

Again the reconciliation of all implies the faith & salvation of all. Therefore Paul has no need to even mention faith in Col.1:16 & 20.

 

[ClementofA]

HEBREWS 10:26-39
[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
[27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

Note the above in context and those scriptures highlighted in red? Now the context here is the UNREPENTANT WICKED. Those who have turned away from Gods Word when they have been given a knowledge of the truth in order to live a life on known unrepentant sin.

PAUL states in v27 that those who continue in known UNREPETANT SIN will receive the JUDGEMENTS OF GOD and that those who continue in known UNREPENTANT SIN are GOD'S ADVERSARIES and that these ADVERSARIES (ENEMIES OF GOD) who reject His Word will receive the judgement of FIERY INDIGNATION AND WRATH which will DEVOUR them.

The Greek Word used here for DEVOUR from...

BDAG: DEVOUR ἐσθίω (Hom.+) and, mainly in the ptc., ἔσθω (Hom., also in other poets, rare in prose [Plut., Mor. p. 101d]; Coan ins, III B.C.: RHerzog, ARW 10, 1907, 400ff; 23; 27; 42; POslo 153, 15 [beg. II A.D.]; PGiss 80, 5; ostraca [BGU 1507, 14; 1508, 3; 4: III B.C.]; LXX; En 98:11 [?]. ἔσθων Lev 17:14; 1 Km 14:30; Sir 20:17; Mk 1:6; Lk 7:33f, 10:7 [the three last v.l.]; μὴ ἔσθετε Lev 19:26. ὅταν ἔσθητε Num 15:19. ἵνα ἔσθητε Lk 22:30. B-D-F §101; W-S. §15; Mlt-H. 238; Schwyzer, I 704 n. 1). Impf. ἤσθιον; fut. ἔδομαι LXX (Mel, P. 12, 80; 13, 83; 93, 697; 1 Cl 39:9; 57:6); 2 aor. ἔφαγον, w. extension of 1 aor. endings (B-D-F §84, 2; Rob. 333; cp. Schwyzer I 753f): 3 pl. ἐφάγοσαν Ps 77:29, 1 pl. ἐφάγαμεν 2 Km 19:43; fut. φάγομαι (B-D-F §74, 2; Mlt-H. 238), 2 sing. φάγεσαι Lk 17:8; Ruth 2:14 (W-S. §13, 6 and 17; B-D-F §87; Mlt-H. 198); pf. pass. ptc. acc. ἐδηδεμένους (Ath., R. 52, 20); pres. 3 sg. ἔσθεται Lev 11:34; Dt 12:22.
② to do away with completely, fig. extension of mng. 1 (Hom. et al.; LXX) consume, devour (of fire Il. 23, 182; Is 10:17; 26:11) πυρὸς ἐσθίειν μέλλοντος τ. ὑπεναντίους fire, which is about to consume the adversaries Hb 10:27 (Is 26:11). ὁ ἰὸς … φάγεται τ. σάρκας ὑμῶν ὡς πῦρ the rust will eat your flesh like fire Js 5:3 (cp. Aeschyl., Fgm. 253 φαγέδαινα [an ulcer] σάρκας ἐσθίει ποδός; Is 30:27 ἡ ὀργὴ τοῦ θυμοῦ ὡς πῦρ ἔδεται). B. 327.—DELG s.v. ἔδω. M-M. EDNT. TW.

So DEVOUR used in HEBREWS 10:27 means and the wicked will be ended and done away completely.

As you well know I've recently already addressed this stuff to you in this thread:

Heb.10:26:

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!


Heb.10:27:

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!


So until you have something new to add or that considers my remarks and refutes my view that those passages are harmonious with Biblical universalism, there's nothing more to say, is there? All you have above is an opinion, a possible interpretation, while likewise i've offered (in the links above) alternate interpretations that harmonize the passage with universalism. So as it stands it's just your opinion vs my opinion, with neither being refuted or proven false. IMO the greater context of Scripture supports universalism, so your opinion of the passage must be incorrect. Understand?

 

[ClementofA]

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

 

[ClementofA]

@ClementofA well dear friend I had a look at the last few posts of yours and could see it is the same cut and paste to what has already been addressed with no new content that has already been addressed that you simply reposted without addressing my posts to you. If you want to have a discussion let's talk.

It would be helpful in that regard if you answered my post # 1546.

Also the entire post # 1549.

And all of post # 1552. Including my questions for you at the end, such as re Rom.6:23: Do you think "death" there means eternal destruction as in endless annihilation?

All of post # 1553.

Post #1554 as well.

Don't forget post #1555.

And then there's post #1556.

Others, too: #1538, including these (and other) questions you avoided answering:

Are posts 1364-1367 your work? What is the source or link? Are you plagiarizing again?

Post 1513 another misrepresentation?

And you never addressed & refuted my points there.

Post 1517, you never addressed those points properly.

Post 1518 re your misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1519 re John 3, never answered.

Posts 1481 & 1520, another misrepresentation of universalism.

Post 1483 yet another misrepresentation of universalism.

As you said, "If you want to have a discussion let's talk."

You addressing all of the above would be a start.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Col 1:16 - 20
"For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven."

Lovely scripture dear fine but you will need to take off the filtered glasses of "UNIVERSALISM" to understand as these scriptures do not teach that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. There is no where in these scriptures that say that the unrepentant wicked after the second coming receive everlasting life.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:28; COLOSSIANS 1:16 and COLOSSIANS 1:20 are in regards to Christs sacrifice for our sins and the reconciliation of the sins of the world. Nowhere in any of these scriptures does it say or teach or imply that the unrepentant wicked who do not accept the gift of JESUS death and blood will be saved and receive everlasting life. The ALL here is conditional to receiving God's gift of grace through faith *EPEHSIANS 2:8-9. The reconcilliation in COLOSSIANS 1:20 is to all those who believe

The scriptures teach that salvation is "conditional" on "BELIEVING and FOLLOWING" God's Word as shown here..

JOHN 3:36 He that BELIEVES ON THE SON HAS EVERLASTING LIFE: and HE THAT BELIEVES NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; BUT THE WRATH OF GOD STAYS ON HIM.

IS OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL BEFORE THE 2ND COMING?

OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)

“IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...

GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

Consequences for not believing and following...

GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

Blessings for believing and following...

EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

There are too mant more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

..............

NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

“IF” (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

God's forgiveness is conditional...

1 JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Conditons for inheriting eternal life...

MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF (conditional) you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.. There is no second chances after the 2nd coming.

Ok once again too many to list and may post some more latter..

............

IS OUR SALVATION CONDITIONAL BEFORE THE 2ND COMING?
ANSWER: Our salvation is "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING what God's Word says BEFORE THE SECOND COMING as shown in both the old and new testament scriptures.

Time to leave the gampling lady of second chances dear Fine. Her waters are polluted and taken from broken cisterns were there is no life and second chances. There is only life in the living waters. If anyone drinks this water of life they will never thirst again. It is TODAY that we must hear his voice and harden not our hearts as in the day in the wilderness.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There's really nothing to address. I'll say this, though: in the early verses of 1 Cor.3 Paul is speaking of the church, but that doesn't deny that he expands it to all men later. So what he was talking about in verses 1,2,3 etc is irrelevant. Therefore your remarks re such verses are irrelevant. And your argument is irrelevant to what i've posted. You might as well be talking about the OT law in the first 5 books of the OT. That's how much relevance your remarks have to what i've posted.

Hopefully that makes things clear for you. If not i can't make a person understand. It's actually not rocket science, but very simple what i'm saying. So i'd be surprised if you couldn't understand it, unless English is not your first language.

And my post did address your content. But, then, you just spammed the same material again, with the same question as above that i had already answered:



There's nothing to address. I read what you said & it is evident that what i said - trumps -and overrules what you said. You haven't refuted my points & i'll be happy to let the readers decide between the two. If you have no further remarks, then this discussion on 1 Cor.3:15 is done.

What you've done with 1 Cor.3:15 is like what you did with Eccl.1:13 & Lam.3:31-33, Col.1:20, Rom.5:18-19, etc. As I said:

If i write a book titled the "salvation of humanity" and it has one sentence stating "the demons will be saved", you err to argue that the context is about the "salvation of humanity" not "demons will be saved", so the statement that "demons will be saved" is really not having any "application" to "demons will be saved", but is actually about the "salvation of humanity".

That's exactly what you've done with several passages i've quoted.

You are committing the error of - using context as a pretext to not believe the plain text - (of what is written). For example, you deny Eccl.1:13 is speaking about "men" in general and insist it only regards Israel or believers.



You falsely claimed i disregarded the context. So i replied:

Clearly i regarded the context & proved my argument from the context:

Verse 11 refers to all mankind, including the lost sinner:

1 Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no one lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Verse 11 says that "no one" can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid which is Jesus Christ. The words "no one" are not limited to the saints in Corinth, but refer to all mankind. This is the last reference identifying any group of people in the next several verses leading up to v.15. Thus prior context and the more immediate following context of v.15, namely v.17, both refer to lost sinners. That is the context in which verse 15 is to be interpreted as to who it should refer to:

1 Cor.3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It is the sins of "wood, hay & stubble" that are to be burned away:

1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Whereas silver represents the redemption of Christ & those of silver are those who have faith in it, wood, hay & stubble have no silver in them, hence such have no faith.

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.

Nonsense, more repitition without addressing any of the content in the post you are rsponding to. What you have ignored is all the context provided in post you were quoting from that proves 1 CORINTHIANS 3 is in reference to BELIEVERS and the saved not "UNBELIEVERS" and the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. Your claims is that these scriptures are to the unrepentant wicked but the post demonstrated through context you leave out that it is to the saved not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked after the second coming. All you did is ignore this as it show why your claims and interpretation of the scriptures are in error. Everything you have posted here is only repitition dear friend and already addressed in this thread and in other posts to you.

Why do you not address the content of my post if you disagree?

I posted earlier here showing the context of 1 CORINTHIANS 3:15 is to the "BROTHERS" in Christ v1 who are babes in Christ and his Word v2-3; fightings over who is of PAUL and APOLLOS v4-5. Then about PAUL and APOLLOS sharing the Gospel (the Word of God) in planting the seed (Word) and watering to give the increase to the church v6-8. Then we are all to be labourers together with Christ in sharing the gospel whose foundation is JESUS Christ v9-11.

Then we have PAUL stating whoever builds on this foundation (CHRIST) v11 in sharing the Gospel v12 his work in sharing the gospel will be manifest in the day of fire. Meaning those who are saved will not receive the destruction of the wicked (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9). Leads us to v14 that says If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward the foundation built upon here is to v11 Christ. Now context is established. This leads us to v15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. This is in reference to the work of sharing the gospel.

So no dear friend, this scripture does not teach anywhere that it is is reference to the wicked being saved at the second coming the context shows that it is a message to the believers, the context is to sharing Gods' Word and those being addressed as being babes in Gods' Word not sharing the gospel message correctly and pointing them to the foundation of the gospel which is JESUS CHRIST.

Now I am claiming here that you are disregarding CONTEXT again here and have provided the context you leave out above that shows that the scriptures here are talking about the saved not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked. If you disagree with the above why not show me where you beleive I am wrong? You can believe as you wish dear friend. This was only posted as a help to you. All you have done in your reponse here is to repeat yourself without addressing this post.

Do you have anything new to share that you already have not cut and pasted many times now? I guess not.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Easy to say, but you still haven't addressed or refuted the points made in the content of my post. I believe that is because you can't & are therefore purposely avoiding it. Which is evident by your long post with a number of verses (already addressed in this thread BTW) that do not discuss the subject, namely Col.1:16,20 & the context therein. So if you have nothing to add re Col.1:16, 20, then i am done discussing that passage with you. As i posted & you've never properly addressed, but only with that above:



No one has ever gone through the following, point by point, and addressed every point.

If you don't have the time to read carefully, study & address posts refuting your viewpoint, then maybe this discussion is not for you.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Let's be clear. It is not my view that the unrepentant wicked will be saved at the time of the second coming. This is in response to your query: "Does the scripture claim what you are claiming that the unrepentant wicked at the second coming will be saved?"

Also i would point out that Col.1:20 says peace has been made already through the blood of the cross:

16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross", how can God let anyone end up being tortured or terminated from existence forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?

"I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling
but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":

Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:

Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

"...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."

"...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
http://blogs.christianpost.com/amba...e-heart-of-gods-grand-plan-for-creation-738/

"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).

There is a parallel here:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

It's quite astonishing that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.




The reconciliation of all (Col.1:16, 20) implies the same.



Col.1:20 speaks of the reconciliation of all. Of course reconciliation implies faith. So your remark is irrelevant. Paul's argument excludes no one. It doesn't rule out anyone being reconciled because they died without faith.

Ephesians 2 isn't the context of Colossians 1, so why are you posting out of context material? Deal with the context of Colossians 1 & my comments about it, if you want to discuss that passage.


Again the reconciliation of all implies the faith & salvation of all. Therefore Paul has no need to even mention faith in Col.1:16 & 20.

Nonsense dear friend. You have simply spammed more repititious cut and paste of the same post over and over dear friend already addressed elsewhere throughout this thread. Do you have anything new to share? None of the scriptures you provide here teach the wicked will be saved.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:28; COLOSSIANS 1:16 and COLOSSIANS 1:20 are in regards to Christs sacrifice for our sins and the reconciliation of the sins of the world. Nowhere in any of these scriptures does it say or teach or imply that the unrepentant wicked who do not accept the gift of JESUS death and blood will be saved and receive everlasting life. The ALL here is conditional to receiving God's gift of grace through faith *EPEHSIANS 2:8-9.

See also these scriptures here linked. The reconcilliation in COLOSSIANS 1:20 is to all those who believe and follow His Word which are the condtions of God's grace. Please dear friend try reponding to the content of the posts shared with you here. Your just repeating yourself. Nothing in the post you have provided above says that the wicked will receive everlasting life after the second coming of JESUS. Your claims to "implied" meaning is simply code you reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say or do not teach.

Now dear friend let's be honest. Where is the scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming? You have no scripture do you.

If you have no scripture that teaches that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming why dear friend do not you believe the scriptures that teach that after the second coming the unrepentant wicked are destroyed *2 THESSALONIANS 1:9?

Why do you not believe the scriptures that teach that the unreepentant wicked after the second coming are a part of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29 who do not receive life, neither are they written in the lambs book of life *REVELATION 20:12-15?

Why do you not believe the scriptures that teach after the second coming that the unrepentant wicked receive God's justice and judgment for their own sins and the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing and do dispite to the spirit of Gods grace *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-39?

Why do you not believe the scriptures that teach after the second coming that the unrepentant wicked are a part of the second resurrection of condemnation *JOHN 5:28-29 who do not receive life, neither are they written in the lambs book of life *REVELATION 20:12-15?

Why do you not believe that the unrepentant wicked will receive the second death because they do not accept Christs dear for them on their behalf *REVELATION 21:7-8? If you do beleive that the unrepentant wicked partake of the second death where is the scripture that proves that God resurrected them to a third resurrection?

There is no scripture dear friend for your position let's be honest now

All the above is clearly shown in the scripture. The wicked at the resurrection of condemnation receive the wages of their own sins that JESUS offered to bare for them to reconcile them to God which is the second death *REVELATION 21:7-8.

All your doing here is repeating your cutting and pasting of the same content your spamming in this OP without addressing any of my responses to you.

Now what is UNIVERSALISM teaching dear friend? It is not the bible. Something to pray about don't you think dear friend?

All you have done here is cut and pasted the same old unbiblical content from someones website and repeated yourself again without addressing any of the content shared with you. NONE of these scripture you have posted say that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming.

This is proven by showing the context of each of the scripture here which have already been addressed in another post you ignored that shows the context of each of these scriptures in post # 1430 here linked. All you have done here is repeated yourself without addressing any of the content of the posts shared with you the prove you or your website has ignored scripture context.

Hope this helps

 

[LoveGodsWord]

As you well know I've recently already addressed this stuff to you in this thread:

Heb.10:26:

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!
THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

Heb.10:27:

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

So until you have something new to add or that considers my remarks and refutes my view that those passages are harmonious with Biblical universalism, there's nothing more to say, is there? All you have above is an opinion, a possible interpretation, while likewise i've offered (in the links above) alternate interpretations that harmonize the passage with universalism. So as it stands it's just your opinion vs my opinion, with neither being refuted or proven false. IMO the greater context of Scripture supports universalism, so your opinion of the passage must be incorrect. Understand?

Nonsense, this is just more repititious cut and paste from you without addressing the content of the posts shared with you again. This was already addressed with scripture and responded to HERE IN POST 1561 LINKED showing why your interepretation is not biblical. You have some catch up to do.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

"DITTO" This was already addressed with scripture and responded to HERE IN POST 1561 LINKED showing why your interepretation is not biblical. You have some catch up to do. Your just repeating yourself without addressing the content of my posts.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Why are you pretending dear friend your posts have not been addressed? All of the content of your posts in regards to the scriptures have already addressed and the interpretation you have applied to the scriptures have been shown in error. It is you that has not responded to the content of my posts. Links provided below...

if you answered my post # 1546.

ADDRESSED AND RESPONED TO IN POST # 1548 linked. You have catching up to do.

Also the entire post # 1549.

ADDRESSED AND RESPONED TO IN POST # 1560 linked. You have catching up to do.

And all of post # 1552. Including my questions for you at the end, such as re Rom.6:23: Do you think "death" there means eternal destruction as in endless annihilation?

Your cut and paste repitition was already addressed in earlier posts in this thread you just reposted the same content that was addressed in ADDRESSED AND RESPONED TO IN POST # 1493 linked without addressing any of the content of this post. You have catching up to do.

All of post # 1553.

You have provided no know content. What is it in this post that has not been addressed in other posts you have ignored? Nothing. Much of the scriptures you have supplied when context is shown does not say what you are claiming they say as shown already and already ADDRESSED AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1493 Linked and POST # 1430 LINKED.

Post #1554 as well.

You simply reposted your post without addressing the conent of the post you are quoting from. You still need to address the conent in the post you are quoting from. ADDRESSED AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1524 Linked.

Don't forget post #1555

I didn't forget it dear friend. You simply respammed your cut and paste without addressing the content of the post you were quoting from. The post you were quoting from shows you misapplied the scripture by leaving out context. Your argument was that LAMENATION 3 was to the unrepentant wicked but the context provided in the post you were quoting from demonstrated that LAMENTATIONS 3 is to REPENTANT ISRAEL and reconciliation to God by ISRAELS repentance and returning to God. Your response we to ignore the context share in love as a help to you that shows why your interpretation of LAMENTATIONS 3 being to the unrepentant wicked at the second coming of Christ is in error. ADDRESSED AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1545 Linked

And then there's post #1556

Your post here was already addressed in the post you were quoting from. You simply respammed your same post without addressing any of the content in the post you were quoting from. Your claims that MATTHEW 1:21 is to the unrepentant wicked is in error when the very scripture you quote is to HIS PEOPLE being the saved not the unrepentant wicked that are not. Further proof is also provided in the same post you were quoting from was ignored. You simply respammed the same post content and ignored the post you were quoting from. ADDRESSED AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1548 Linked.

Others, too: #1538, including these (and other) questions you avoided answering

Arr one of my favourites though only more repitition from you without addressing any of my posts and questions provided to you earlier.
ADDRESSED AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1524 Linked.
ADDRESSED AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1545 Linked
ADDRESSED AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1363 Linked.
ADDRESSED AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1364 Linked.
ADDRESSED AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1365 Linked.
ADDRESSED AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1366 Linked.
ADDRESSED AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1367 Linked.

Are posts 1364-1367 your work? What is the source or link? Are you plagiarizing again?

I do not feel the need to answer any false claims your making here, so I will leave that for you to work out by reading these posts that you are yet to respond to. If you read these posts you would already know the answer to your question. You question only proves you did not read them which is why you did not respond to them I guess.

Post 1513 another misrepresentation?

Yes I think so. You know post # 1513 is your post right that did not address the post you were quotin from that shows a lot of false claims you were making that were...
ADDRESSED AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1495 Linked.

Post 1517, you never addressed those points properly.

Nonsense. What is it that has not been addressed in other posts elsewhere? You just repeating your same posts.
ADDRESSED AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1496 Linked.
ADDRESSED AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1436 Linked.

Post 1518 re your misrepresentation of universalism.

Hmm? You do know this is your post right? What misrepresentation of "UNIVERSALISM" are you claiming I have made dear friend? I have made no misrepresentations. I have only shown by God's Grace that the claims of UNIVERSALISM that the unrepentant wicked will receive eternal life after the second coming is a false teaching and it not biblical as shown from the scriptures in the linked posts here by showing the scripture context that UNIVERSALISM does not consider. You are free to believe as you wish. For me I choose to believe God's Word. As proven in the linked posts here. The claims of UNIVERSALISM is not biblical and is a false teaching leading many away from God and his Word. It states the same teachings presented to EVE in the garden of EDEN that if you eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil when God has told you that in the day you eat thereof you will surely die ... that you will not surely die but be as God knowing Good and Evil *GENESIS 3:1-5. ADDRESSED FURTHER AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1497 linked

Post 1519 re John 3, never answered.

True, I did not reply as I did not feel the need to. Why? What was it in this post that you feel I needed to repond to? Your post was addressed to two people and there was nothing in that post that disagreed with what you were quoting from me so I felt no need to respond to it. All you provided was your opinion to me in regards to "UNIVERSALISM. You provided no scripture that disagreed with anything I posted to you. Soooo what was it that you wanted me to respond to; your opinion? Your entitled to your opinion. For me only God's Words is true and we should beleive and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that deny the Words of God. If you disagree and there is something specific in that post you want me to respond to what is it? You did not provide anything in this post that contradicted anything I posted that has not been addressed elsewhere. In fact maybe the problem with that post was it was not yours it was a website cut and paste that was too general and did not address my post you were quoting from. If you want me to address anything specific in that post let me know.

Posts 1481 & 1520, another misrepresentation of universalism. Post 1483 yet another misrepresentation of universalism.

These are simply your posts and opinions again. There is no misrepresentations as UNIVERSALISM teaches the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. This is not biblical as has been proven in this thead.
ADDRESSED FURTHER AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1497 linked
ADDRESSED FURTHER AND RESPONDED TO IN POST # 1381 linked

As you said, "If you want to have a discussion let's talk." You addressing all of the above would be a start.

As shown in the post and linked posts above your claims here are not true. All you have done is spammed the same cut and pastes from other peoples websites over and over without addressing the content of my posts to you as shown in the linked postes above. Do you have anything new to add to the conversation? I guess not. It seems our converation is drawing to a close dear friend.

........

As shown in the linked posts above every teaching claims of UNIVERSALISM has been solidly refuted by showing scripture context. Time to face the facts dear friends, the teachings of "UNIVERSALISM" that the unrepentant wicked will be saved after the second coming of JESUS is not biblical and is all smoke and mirrors designed to lead people away from God and his Word.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[FineLinen]

Lovely scripture dear fine but you will need to take off the filtered glasses of "UNIVERSALISM" to understand as these scriptures do not teach that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming.

Your wearisome long winded pontifications are zero help.

The fact is there is absolutely nothing (in the context) indicating when "everything and everybody" will experience being restored in Abba's timeframe.

You simply must learn the words of yours & His are NOT synonomous!

 

[FineLinen]

150 Reasons

150 Reasons For Believing In The Final Salvation Of All Mankind

Seven Large Myths

7 Myths About Universalism

A Summary Of The Divine Plan

SUMMARY OF

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Your wearisome long winded pontifications are zero help.
The fact is there is absolutely nothing (in the context) indicating when "everything and everybody" will experience being restored in Abba's timeframe.
You simply must learn the words of yours & His are NOT synonomous!

Not really dear Fine. I have only posted Gods Word in the post you took a small snippet from. God's Words are not mine but God's. In response you respond with your words that are not God's but yours. It is God's Word not mine that says that the wicked will be destroyed after the second resurrection of condemnation in the second death not me. It is God's Word that says that the wicked will be destroyed in the second death in the lake of fire not mine. Yet you deny God's Word with your words that are not God's but yours trying to claim God's Word is not true? Well dear friend I know who I believe and it is not you. You have not provided a single scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming. Does this not worry you dear friend? It should. There is no life in the polluted waters given by the lady of second chances when there is no second chance for the unrepetant wicked after the second coming. Your memes are simply a distraction so you do not need to reply to the scriptures provided which are God's Word which is the rock where living waters flow.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Your wearisome long winded pontifications are zero help.

God's Word is always a help dear friend to those who believe them.

 

[ClementofA]

L
The scriptures teach that salvation is "conditional" on "BELIEVING and FOLLOWING" God's Word as shown here..

JOHN 3:36 He that BELIEVES ON THE SON HAS EVERLASTING LIFE: and HE THAT BELIEVES NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; BUT THE WRATH OF GOD STAYS ON HIM.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36

The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

In chapter 4 he writes:

39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/view/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271

Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36

How can the wrath of God abide (remain) on someone if it isn't already there? And the denial ("shall not see life") is not time limited. It is that the individual will not see life. Period.

Clearly it is "time limited". All were at one time "unbelievers" with the "wrath of God" on them. Yet many of those unbelievers became believers. These believers no longer have the "wrath of God" on them. There - was - a "time limit" to how long the "wrath of God" was on them. And likewise there was a "time limit" till those who "shall not see life" did in fact "see life".

Even apostates who had once believed are being sought by God for salvation & being corrected for their own good:

1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER: