THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

[ClementofA]

You were falsely quoting a Lexicon referring to 1 CORINTHIANS 5:5 and pretending it was a reference to 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9.

Nonsense. It is you who is - "pretending" - like you can read the minds of anonymous internet posters & know the secrets of their hearts. I did not "falsely" quote a lexicon, but correctly quoted it & even provided a link to the context where it occurs should anyone wish to read it. And i did not "pretend" anything.

Rom.2:16a In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men
1 Cor.4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts

I have shown you already the context you left out of these scriptures that prove that LAMENTATIONS is in regards to ISRAEL'S (God's peoples) punishments for sin.

Lamentations 3:31-33 goes beyond just Israel and speaks of men in general. Why do you keep ignoring that? Because it does not suit your theology?

According to the KJV Bible (& many others almost exactly the same):

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Clearly Lam.3:31-33 above is in opposition to any theology in support of endless punishment of the wicked.

Sorry dear friend but LAMENTATIONS 3 is over ISRAELS afflictions (God's poeple) for departing from God and sinning against him and returning to God in repentance. Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...

[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:

[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.

...............

Benson Commentary
Lamentations 3:31-33. The Lord will not cast off for ever — The truly penitent that put their trust in him, and sincerely desire and seek reconciliation with him: though he may for a time appear to estrange himself from them, yet he will certainly return to them. Though he cause grief — Though, as a prudent parent, he may see reason to chastise his people by affliction, yet as a kind and tender Father, who pitieth his children in misery, according to the multitude, the unspeakable greatness and abundance of his mercies, he will have compassion upon them. For he doth not afflict willingly — Hebrew, מלבו, from his heart, that is, of his own mere motion, without cause given him by the persons afflicted; or freely and with pleasure; nor grieve the children of men — Much less his own children. Hence judgment is called his strange work, and exercising mercy and loving-kindness his delight.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For the Lord will not cast off for ever. Which is not to be understood of all his creatures; for there are some he does cast off for ever, as the angels that sinned; reprobate men, profligate and abandoned sinners, that live and die impenitent; and unbelievers, carnal professors, and apostates; but not his own special and peculiar people, the people whom he has foreknown and loved with an everlasting love, his spiritual Israel; or, as the Targum supplies it, "his servants"; see Psalm 94:14; he may seem for a while to reject them, but not in reality and for ever; as when he hides his face from them, lays his afflicting hand on them, or suffers then, to be afflicted by others, and defers his help, and does not immediately appear to their deliverance and salvation; but in reality he never rejects them from being his people, his servants, and his sons; they have always a place in his heart, and are ever under his eye and care; they continue in his covenant, and abide in his family; and though they may be cast down in their souls, and cast out by men, yet are not cast off by God, neither in youth nor old age, in time or eternity; his love is unchangeable; his purposes firm and unalterable; his counsel, covenant, oath, and promise, immutable; and they are his jewels, his portion, and inheritance; and this is a ground and reason of bearing patiently all afflictions, injuries, and reproaches; for though men cast off, God will not.

Hope this helps.

According to the KJV Bible (& many others almost exactly the same):

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Clearly Lam.3:31-33 above is in opposition to any theology in support of endless punishment of the wicked. Nothing you posted changes what is stated above in Lam.3:31-33. You can either believe some human opinion, like that of John Gill that you posted, or you can choose to believe Lam.3:31-33 above. Your choice. Up to you.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Nonsense. It is you who is - "pretending" - like you can read the minds of anonymous internet posters & know the secrets of their hearts. I did not "falsely" quote a lexicon, but correctly quoted it & even provided a link to the context where it occurs should anyone wish to read it. And i did not "pretend" anything.

God knows. I will leave it between you and God and simply post the link here for others to read that prove you where making Lexicon claims that were not true. (Proof provided here linked)

Lamentations 3:31-33 goes beyond just Israel and speaks of men in general. Why do you keep ignoring that? Because it does not suit your theology?

According to the KJV Bible (& many others almost exactly the same):

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Clearly Lam.3:31-33 above is in opposition to any theology in support of endless punishment of the wicked.

According to the KJV Bible (& many others almost exactly the same):

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Clearly Lam.3:31-33 above is in opposition to any theology in support of endless punishment of the wicked. Nothing you posted changes what is stated above in Lam.3:31-33. You can either believe some human opinion, like that of John Gill that you posted, or you can choose to believe Lam.3:31-33 above. Your choice. Up to you.

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
213 Questions Without Answers:

Repitition again. You have not addressed anything in my earliar post the shows the context you left out. You simply cut and pasted and repeated yourself. As posted earlier...

Your claims here have been clearly refurted already in a post you have not even bothered to read or address. I have shown you already the context you left out of these scriptures that prove that LAMENTATIONS is in regards to ISRAEL'S (God's peoples) punishments for sin. Why you continue to ignore this is beyond me. As shown earlier through the scriptures....

Sorry dear friend but LAMENTATIONS 3 is over ISRAELS afflictions (God's poeple) for departing from God and sinning against him and returning to God in repentance. Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...

[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:

[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.

...............

Benson Commentary
Lamentations 3:31-33. The Lord will not cast off for ever — The truly penitent that put their trust in him, and sincerely desire and seek reconciliation with him: though he may for a time appear to estrange himself from them, yet he will certainly return to them. Though he cause grief — Though, as a prudent parent, he may see reason to chastise his people by affliction, yet as a kind and tender Father, who pitieth his children in misery, according to the multitude, the unspeakable greatness and abundance of his mercies, he will have compassion upon them. For he doth not afflict willingly — Hebrew, מלבו, from his heart, that is, of his own mere motion, without cause given him by the persons afflicted; or freely and with pleasure; nor grieve the children of men — Much less his own children. Hence judgment is called his strange work, and exercising mercy and loving-kindness his delight.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For the Lord will not cast off for ever. Which is not to be understood of all his creatures; for there are some he does cast off for ever, as the angels that sinned; reprobate men, profligate and abandoned sinners, that live and die impenitent; and unbelievers, carnal professors, and apostates; but not his own special and peculiar people, the people whom he has foreknown and loved with an everlasting love, his spiritual Israel; or, as the Targum supplies it, "his servants"; see Psalm 94:14; he may seem for a while to reject them, but not in reality and for ever; as when he hides his face from them, lays his afflicting hand on them, or suffers then, to be afflicted by others, and defers his help, and does not immediately appear to their deliverance and salvation; but in reality he never rejects them from being his people, his servants, and his sons; they have always a place in his heart, and are ever under his eye and care; they continue in his covenant, and abide in his family; and though they may be cast down in their souls, and cast out by men, yet are not cast off by God, neither in youth nor old age, in time or eternity; his love is unchangeable; his purposes firm and unalterable; his counsel, covenant, oath, and promise, immutable; and they are his jewels, his portion, and inheritance; and this is a ground and reason of bearing patiently all afflictions, injuries, and reproaches; for though men cast off, God will not.

It seems dear friend God's Word disagrees with you and the posts your providing are simply smoke and mirrors. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

Gods' Sheep hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Dear dear dear Fine: welcome to > > >

Indeed dear friend. Time to leave the Fairytales dear friend and time to believe the scriptures. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God and the gambling lady of second chances when there is no second chance after the second coming of JESUS.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

“Wherefore God has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

At = en

The name = anoma

Jesus = Iēsous

Every = pas

Should bow = kamptō

Heaven = epouranios

Earth = epigeros

Underworld = katachtonios

"He thought of everything, provided for everything we could possibly need, letting us in on the plans he took such delight in making. He set it all out before us in Christ, a long-range plan in which everything would be brought together and summed up in him, everything in deepest heaven, everything on planet earth. It’s in Christ that we find out who we are and what we are living for. Long before we first heard of Christ and got our hopes up, he had his eye on us, had designs on us for glorious living, part of the overall purpose he is working out in everything and everyone."

1. All beings.
   
   
2. All dimensions.
   
   
3. In union with the Name.
   
   
4. Pas = radically means all.

Indeed dear Fine thanks for sharing. Everyone will indeed confess and acknowledge that JESUS is indeed king of kings and Lord of Lords and bow before him at the second coming and the judgement. At this time however it will be too late for the wicked. These scriptures do not say that the wicked who continue in known unrepentant sin at that time will be saved however and receive everlasting life. In that day when he returns as a theif in the night the wicked will seek to hide themselves from the face of him that sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb and cry out to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? As the Lord as warned us that we should know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes on them, as travail on a woman with child; and they shall not escape. Do you know these scriptures dear Fine?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So, then, almost everyone (99.999%) will be going to the lake of fire, eh?

Not really dear friend but we know that the many are called but only the few are chosen *MATTHEW 22:14 and that thou God's proffessed poeple are like the sand of the sea only a remnant shall be saved *ROMANS 9:27. Those who truly follow God all through time have always only been a remnant *ROMANS 11:5. Now these are the Words of God in regards to those who are saved to the chosen people of God we are not even talking about the wicked here who are not saved but destroyed after the second coming of Christ in the clouds of heaven.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Long after that:

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

The answer to your question dear friend is in the very scripture you quoted. Your ignoring scripture context again here let me highlight the section in the scripture your ignoring..

1 CORINTHIANS 15:24-27 [25], [24], Then comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.[25] For he must reign, till he has put ALL ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET.[26], The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. [27], For he has put all things under his feet. But when he said all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
For he hath put all things under his feet.—1Corinthians 15:26 is a parenthesis, and the “for” with which this verse commences goes back to 1Corinthians 15:25. The connection is, Christ must reign until he has put all enemies under his feet. Christ must triumph, for according to the statement in Psalm 8:6 (see also Psalm 110:1), God hath put all things under man, and in a higher sense under the Son of Man. (For a similar application of Old Testament statement regarding man to Christ as the Son of Man, see Matthew 21:16; Hebrews 2:7.) But when God says that all things are put under Him, He evidently is excepted who did put all things under Him. This leads up logically to the complete triumph of God the Father, expressed in the following verse, which is an expansion of 1Corinthians 15:24 when JESUS delivers up the kingdom to the father.

.............

The scriptures as shown in context here is talking about the kingdom of God or God's kingdom. The saved are already a part of Gods' kingdom so already subject to Christs dominion as they are already a part of God's kingdom so the scriptures here are in reference to God's people being put under his Feet. The scriptures here are in reference to the ENEMIES of God which are the wicked. The scriptures here do not say anywhere that the wicked receive everlasting life at the second coming. They are put under Christs feet and receive God's vengence and are destroyed according to the scriptures *1 THESSALONIANS 1:9 and receive their pounishment in the lake of fire which is the second death. This death is eternal. *REVELATION 2:11; REVELATION 20:6; REVELATION 21:8

Hope this helps dear friend.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Clearly everything has a positive purpose to it: "to humble them" (Eccl.1:13). Whether it was flooding the earth that killed those outside the ark or whatever "evil" occurs to men, God has given it to "humble them". Including those who will go to Gehenna (Mk.9:43-49), the Valley of Hinnom, which is on earth & "under the heavens".

We know "hell" (Hades/Sheol, Tartarus, Gehenna, the lake of fire, the abyss, etc) is also "under the heavens". Evidently the humans there, if any, are for their own good, being humbled too. See Eccl.1:13 above.

The context the context dear friend. The scriptures you quote above are in reference to believers not unbelievers and the wicked as it is written...

ROMANS 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

According to the scriptures it is the wicked who end up in the lake of fire and the second death which means they will be be dead forever REVELATION 21:8; 1 THESSALONIANS 1:9.

Hope this helps dear friend.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Nothing there supports your endless annihilation theory. All those passages have been repeatedly addressed & the opposers of biblical universalism have no answers to refute how we've shown those verses harmonize perfectly with Scriptural universalism.

Nonsense dear friend. Only scripture has been provided and these scriptures show that the wicked are destroyed after the second coming. After 72+ pages and 1421 posts no one that believes in UNIVERSALISM has provided a single scripture that says that the wicked are forgiven and receive eternal life after the second coming. Yet the very word of God that is shared with you that you deny states specifically that the wicked are destroyed in the lake of fire after the second coming. These are God's Word dear friend which in your posts you only deny with your words. Only God's Word is true and we should beleive and follow them. There is no more chances at the second coming from the gambling lady of second chances once JESUS returns every case is decided and his reward is with him when the announcement is made before JESUS returns; He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be *REVELATION 22:11-12.

For example Matthew 25:41: More literal and honest translations state:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall He be declaring to those also at His left, 'Go from Me, you cursed, into the fire eonian, made ready for the Adversary and his messengers. (CLV)
Online Parallel Study Bibles
Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the
age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; (YLT)

"Then will He say to those at His left, "'Begone from me, with the curse resting upon you, into the Fire of the Ages, which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels. (WEY)

The same Greek words for "eternal fire" (Mt.25:41) are used in Jude 1:7:

Jude 7 As Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities about them in like manner to these committing ultra-prostitution, and coming away after other flesh, are lying before us, a specimen, experiencing the justice of fire eonian." (Jude 7, CLV)

Do you believe that the city of Sodom in Israel today is still burning from the fire that destroyed it? Will the burning be "eternal" or has the "eternal fire" already ended? In which case "eternal" is a deceptive translation & the fire was temporary, not "eternal".

Do you think the city of Sodom in Israel is still burning by that "eternal fire" today? Or has it long ago been extinguished & was not "eternal" but eonian & finite? BTW, the same phrase, "eonian fire" also appears twice in Matthew (25:41; 18:8). If the eonian fire of Jude 1:7 was finite, then why can't the same in Matthew's account be finite?

Not really relavant to me. I do not believe in everlasting fire and everlasting torment so I am assuming your just cutting and pasting content that is not relevant to our discussion here. Instead of copy and pasting irrelavant content why not have a discussion with me? How does you providing a few different translations of MATTHEW 25:41 address the scripture meaning? It doesn't. You have not addressed anything here.

Were the bodies of the people of Sodom destroyed (killed) by that fire destroyed forever, i.e. endlessly annihilated. No, it is a temporary destruction until their resurrection. Their resurrection will reverse that destruction. IOW the resurrection will destroy that destruction. Love Omnipotent destroys and then He makes alive again what He destroyed: "See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand." (Dt.32:39)

You do know dear friend that there is a resurrection of the wicked right?

JOHN 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

If we are not found in the Lambs book of life dear friend we do not have life but the second death in the lake of fire which is eternal according to the scriptures *REVELATION 20:12-15; 1 THESSLONIANS 1:9; REVELATION 21:7-8

Furthermore, Sodom (cf. Jude 1:7) will be restored:

Nonsense, the scripture in JUDE 1:7 does not say Sodom will be restored. These scriptures says no such thing. Do you mean as it was in the days of Sodam and Gommorah and Noah before the floow so shall it be in the coming of the Son of man? This meaning is that the world will be just as wicked. There is no scripture that teaches that the wicked will be saved and receive eternal life after the second coming dear friend.

"Speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel gives us God's thoughts concerning Sodom. "As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters." And again, "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters...then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them...when thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate" (Ezek.16:48,53,55)."

Anyone reading the scripture context you conveniently leave out here from EZEKIEL 16:34-61 with the new testament will see that God is comparing sinful ISRAEL departing from God to Sodom which received God's judgments and that restoration of ISRAEL would take place when the gentiles (typified as Sodom) return to God.

Think about it dear friend. Sodom had been totally destroyed; how then would God restore them? Sodom here is representing the gentiles that turn to God. The meaning here is that, "The spiritual descendants, or successors, of Sodom, the people of the same character as the Sodomites would, under the New Covenant in Christ, enjoy the privileges of forgiveness and salvation."

In fact, this indeed happened see 1 CORINTHIANS 6:9-11. Paul noted that the very worst sinners, including drunkards and Sodomites, were saved, cleansed, sanctified, and justified, not as continuing practitioners of their vile sins, of course, but, as in the case of every other Christian, upon the prior condition of their repentance and turning away from their wickedness. Christ did not come into this world and die in order to save men in their sins but from their sins. In the very passage, cited above, where Paul told of the redemption of these Sodomites of his generation, he also stated that practitioners of such gross sins, "cannot inherit the kingdom of God." Of course, they can be saved, all right, but upon the same terms under which anyone else may be saved, namely, upon the condition of their unqualified repentance and turning from their wicked ways.

So the refrence here is not to the unbelieving wicked but repentant gentiles that are saved by God's grace and believe and follow Gods' Word.

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Furthermore, the context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages." Why affirm belief in Hell?

I do not believe in hell so I guess this is one of your cut and pastes again that are not relevant to our conversation. Zzz

Heb.10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily

What nonsense. HEBREWS 10:26-39 is talking about those who reject God's Word when they have been given a knowledge of God's truth to continue in known unrepentant sin. The context is to God's judgements at the second coming. Not hard and easy to understand.

HEBREWS 10:26-39
[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
[27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.
[32], But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great fight of afflictions;
[33], Partly, whilst you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst you became companions of them that were so used.
[34], For you had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
[35], Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense of reward.
[36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise.
[37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
[38], NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
[39], But we are not of them who draw back to perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

No comment needed here. Read the scriptures. No need to jump all over the place and ignore scripture context.

Lk.12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Why? It's a parable. What do you think it means? To me it means there will be punishment for the unrepentant wicked.

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just. “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

ROMANS 5:18-19 is teachings that all men have sinned and condemned in sin but that through the act of God's grace and justice and judgement in sending his own son to die on the cross for our sins all who accept the gift of Gods' grace by faith in Christ can be reconcilled to God and receive God's forgiveness. The MANY here are the saved. Note it does not say ALL and there is no scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked will be saved anywhere in these scriptures.

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Nonsense! Where is the scripture that says that there there will be corrective punishment and salvation for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming? There is none. According to the scriptures at the second coming it is too late for the wicked as judgement is promounced
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be *REVELATION 22:11-12. The reward for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming is God' vengence and destruction of the second death in the lake of fire (see 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9; REVELATION 21:7-8). You do not have any scripture do you dear friend that says that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. Does this not worry you? It should as your making claims that are not biblical.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever. "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

Once again these scriptures are in reference to those who repented of their sins and chose to follow God. The scriptures here are to the saved not the unsaved. They are to ALL those who are made rightouess in the blood of the lamb not to the unrepentant wicked who rejected the gift of God's dear son and counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing.

May God help you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

This will conclude my responses to your post quoted above. I have commented upon all the scripture passages you quoted & shown how they are harmonious with the scriptural teaching of eventual universal salvation. I am still waiting for you to show how you think the passages i cited - 1 Cor.15:22-28; Rom.5:18-19; Col.1:16-20; Phil.2:9-11 - harmonize with your opinion of the scriptures

As shown through the scriptures and context you have left out you have been shown I believe where you are in error. The scriptures you try to align to the wicked are scriptures that are talking about those who are the saved before the second coming of JESUS as shown in the context you leave out of the scriptures you provide. You are yet to show and have failed in proving that the wicked will receive everlasting life after the second coming. The scriptures provided you already prove the opposite to what your claiming and you have no scriptures to show that the wicked receive everlasting life after the second coming. Yet the scriptures alone teach that the unrepentant wicked after the second coming receive the second death which is defined as Gods' vengence to the wicked which is a death that is eternal *2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 22:11-15; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:19-27 etc etc..

I already commented upon Mt.22:14 to you before & still await your answer:Few chosen. For what? A final destiny of salvation from which the rest (the many others) are forever excluded? No, Paul says "many" (Rom.5:18-19) shall be saved, not "few". And by "the many" he means all fallen human beings:

Already addressed in the posts provided to you. Go read them. God's people have always been a remnant.

we know that the many are called but only the few are chosen *MATTHEW 22:14 and that thou God's proffessed poeple are like the sand of the sea only a remnant shall be saved *ROMANS 9:27. Those who truly follow God all through time have always only been a remnant *ROMANS 11:5. Now these are the Words of God in regards to those who are saved to the chosen people of God we are not even talking about the wicked here who are not saved but destroyed after the second coming of Christ in the clouds of heaven. There will be many saved but these are only a remnant compared to the unrepentant wicked that will not be saved. ROMANS 5:18-19 does not say all will be saved but many. In contrast the scriptures teach that these many are only a remnant compared to the unsaved. Hence the scripture in MATTHEW 22:14 that provides the over all context. "Many are called to God's salvation but few are chosen? Why? God's salvation is conditional on believing and following his Word (scripture support here).

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Repetition again dear friend. You already have said the same thing repeated in many cut and paste posts and this has already been addressed elsewhere. Why are you repeating yourself? Your not reading what is posted to you are you.

ROMANS 5:18-19 is teachings that all men have sinned and condemned in sin but that through the act of God's grace and justice and judgement in sending his own son to die on the cross for our sins all who accept the gift of Gods' grace by faith in Christ can be reconcilled to God and receive God's forgiveness. The MANY here are the saved. Note it does not say ALL and there is no scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked will be saved anywhere in these scriptures.

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Repetition agian dear friend why are you repeating yourself again in multiple posts? This is already addressed in another post to you wher I posted that your claim here was Nonsense! Then I asked you where is the scripture that says that there there will be corrective punishment and salvation for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming? There is none. According to the scriptures at the second coming it is too late for the wicked as judgement is promounced He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be *REVELATION 22:11-12. The reward for the unrepentant wicked after the second coming is God' vengence and destruction of the second death in the lake of fire (see 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9; REVELATION 21:7-8). You do not have any scripture do you dear friend that says that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. Does this not worry you? It should as your making claims that are not biblical.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

Matthew 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Mt.1:21 refers to "His people" who will be saved from their sins. That's "Israel" (Mt.2:6), the nation referred to in the Old Testament, including all those who died in their sins, e.g. King Saul, Judas, the Pharisees, etc. This is truly "good news", not the bad news of Calvinism, SDAism, etc.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

Ok all of this is once again repitition already addressed. I do not know why you are making repeated posts. Are you reading what is posted to you or just cutting and pasting repitition?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Where do any of these passages say it is talking about believers only? Nowhere

Your quote from mine earlier was in reference to other scriptures and scripture examples of David, Saul and others who repented from their sins as well as other scriptures you provided. All of them were to the saved not the unrepentant wicked. Let's see if any of the scriptures you provide here say that the unrepented wicked will be saved....

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

This one has already been addressed throughout this thread and is only repetition on your behalf without responding to my post. I posted earlier here showing the context of 1 CORINTHIANS 3:15 is to the "BROTHERS" in Christ v1 who are babes in Christ and his Word v2-3; fightings over who is of PAUL and APOLLOS v4-5. Then about PAUL and APOLLOS sharing the Gospel (the Word of God) in planting the seed (Word) and watering to give the increase to the church v6-8. Then we are all to be labourers together with Christ in sharing the gospel whose foundation is JESUS Christ v9-11. Then we have PAUL stating whoever builds on this foundation (CHRIST) v11 in sharing the Gospel v12 his work in sharing the gospel will be manifest in the day of fire. Meaning those who are saved will not receive the destruction of the wicked (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9). Leads us to v14 that says If any man's work abide which he has built thereupon, he shall receive a reward the foundation built upon here is to v11 Christ. Now context is established. This leads us to v15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. This is in reference to the work of sharing the gospel. So no this scripture does not teach anywhere that it is is reference to the wicked being saved at the second coming the context shows that it is a message to the believers, the context is to sharing Gods' Word and those being addressed as being babes in Gods' Word not sharing the gospel message correctly and pointing them to the foundation of the gospel which is JESUS CHRIST.

One down. The scriptures here are not saying that the wicked will be saved at the second coming. The scriptures teach that the wicked are destroyed after the second coming (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 22:11-15; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:19-27 etc etc..)

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Read the scripture. MATTHEW 1:21 says And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: FOR HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.

This is to the saved not the unsaved or the unrepentant wicked.

Two down. The scriptures here are not saying that the wicked will be saved at the second coming. The scriptures teach that the wicked are destroyed after the second coming (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 22:11-15; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:19-27 etc etc..)

Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel. The "His people" referred to are Israel (2:6) of the context. IOW people like Judas Iscariot, the son of perdition, & the Pharisees who were blaspheming Christ & or the Holy Spirit, etc.

ISREAL in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow God's Word. ISRAEL in the new covenant are not those who do not believe and follow God's Word (ROMANS 9:6-8). If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL we have no part in God's new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27.

Three down. The scriptures here are not saying that the wicked will be saved at the second coming. The scriptures teach that the wicked are destroyed after the second coming (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 22:11-15; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:19-27 etc etc..)

Rom.11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

"DITTO" ISREAL in the new covenant are all those who believe and follow God's Word. ISRAEL in the new covenant are not those who do not believe and follow God's Word (ROMANS 9:6-8). If we are not a part of God's ISRAEL we have no part in God's new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27.

Four down. The scriptures here are not saying that the wicked will be saved at the second coming. The scriptures teach that the wicked are destroyed after the second coming (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 22:11-15; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:19-27 etc etc..)

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Read the context and the scriptures already provided REVELATION 5:6-13 is in reference to the saved not the unsaved v8-10. The time is at the second coming. At this time the the wicked will be destroyed at the brightness of his coming. Every creature is in context to v8-12 who are the saved not the unsaved. As well as this there is no scripture here that says the wicked will be saved after the second coming.

Five down. The scriptures here are not saying that the wicked will be saved at the second coming. The scriptures teach that the wicked are destroyed after the second coming (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 22:11-15; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:19-27 etc etc..)

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying." Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

More repetition. This has already been addressed elsewher. ROMANS 5:18-19 is teachings that all men have sinned and are condemned in sin but that through the act of God's grace and justice and judgement in sending his own son to die on the cross for our sins all who accept the gift of Gods' grace by faith in Christ can be reconcilled to God and receive God's forgiveness. The MANY here are the saved. Note it does not say ALL and there is no scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked will be saved anywhere in these scriptures.

Six down. The scriptures here are not saying that the wicked will be saved at the second coming. The scriptures teach that the wicked are destroyed after the second coming (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 22:11-15; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:19-27 etc etc..)

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

None of these scriptures teach the wicked will be saved. 1 CORINTHIANS 15:28; COLOSSIANS 1:16 and COLOSSIANS 1:20 are to the Christs sacrifice for our sins and the reconciliation of the sins of the world. Nowhere in any of these scriptures does it say or teach that the unrepentant wicked who do not accept the gift of JESUS death and blood will be saved and receive everlasting life. The ALL here is conditional to receiving God's gift of grace through faith *EPEHSIANS 2:8-9. See also these scriptures here linked

Seven, eight and nine down. The scriptures here are not saying that the wicked will be saved at the second coming. The scriptures teach that the wicked are destroyed after the second coming (2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 22:11-15; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:19-27 etc etc..)

It's implied in the Scriptures posted above. Can you not see that?

Nonsense. You saying the unrepentant wicked are saved after the second coming is implied when the scriptures teach the opposite in 2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 22:11-15; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:19-27 etc is the same as saying your reading into the scripture what the scriptures do not say and teach and ignoring the scripture context to try and make them say things that they do not. This is called eisegesis and is not biblical for interpretation of the scriptures. Context is king and it proves your interpretation of these scriptures are in error as shown above.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

YOU - have not EVER in your entire lifetime read or posted a single scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked DO NOT EVER receive eternal life after the second coming of Jesus. And you NEVER will.

Hmm sorry I do not know what your talking about here. Please see 2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 22:11-15; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:19-27 etc. I have not even started on the rest of the new testament scriptures not to mention the old testament. I may do this in another post shortly. Your claims have no truth in them.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑You have not posted a single scripture that says that the unrepentant wicked receive eternal life after the second coming of JESUS.

Your reponse here...

What a ridiculous mantra is that your mantra you've posted how many dozen times in this thread while ignoring all the universal salvation verses we universalists have posted. Who are you trying to convince with so many repetitions? Yourself? Why should we need a scripture that says those exact words when we've given you scriptures that imply the same?

Why? It is true. Here we are 71+ pages latter and over 1420 something posts and not one person that believes in UNIVERSALISM has posted a single scripture that says that the wicked are saved and recieve everlasting life after the second coming of JESUS! Not one. Does this not worry you? At the very least dear friend it should give you something to think about. All the scriptures you provide are in reference to the saved not the unsaved and unrepentant wicked after the second coming. Yet the scriptures in God's Word alone teach that that the wicked are destroyed 2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9; REVELATION 21:7-8; REVELATION 22:11-15; MATTHEW 25:31-41; MATTHEW 7:19-27 etc. Only Gods Word is true and we should believe and follow it and you have provided none to show that the unrepentant wicked receive recveive everlasting life after the second coming. Even if you could you would have to reconcile the scriptures that disagree with you and you haven't.

Is your religion one of worry? Scripture tells me to be anxious about NOTHING. Perhaps you should be obeying that command & instructing other Christians to do likewise. Instead of promoting your gospel of "worry...you should be worried". OTOH, since it is your endless annihilation after sadistic tortures theology that is unscriptural, according to your good news gospel of "worry, worry", shouldn't you practice what you preach & be worried.

No it is one of faith, hope and love.

Hope this helps dear friend.

 

[FineLinen]

Everyone will indeed confess and acknowledge that JESUS is indeed king of kings and Lord of Lords and bow before him at the second coming and the judgement. At this time however it will be too late for the wicked.

Nonsense aka gobbledygook!

You are attempting to add your ideas to the Scripture (again).

The time frame is NOT in the passage in Philippians!

What is there = the scope of every being, in every dimension worshipping Him in union with His Name.

“Wherefore God has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

At = en

The name = anoma

Jesus = Iēsous

Every = pas

Should bow = kamptō

Heaven = epouranios

Earth = epigeros

Underworld = katachtonios

"He thought of everything, provided for everything we could possibly need, letting us in on the plans he took such delight in making. He set it all out before us in Christ, a long-range plan in which everything would be brought together and summed up in him, everything in deepest heaven, everything on planet earth. It’s in Christ that we find out who we are and what we are living for. Long before we first heard of Christ and got our hopes up, he had his eye on us, had designs on us for glorious living, part of the overall purpose he is working out in everything and everyone."

1. All beings.
   
   
2. All dimensions.
   
   
3. In union with the Name.
   
   
4. Pas = radically means all.

 

[agapelove]

No it is one of faith, hope and love.

That's funny because it appears like those are the very things you have been arguing against. 1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.

 

[FineLinen]

Indeed dear friend. Time to leave the Fairytales dear friend and time to believe the scriptures. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God and the gambling lady of second chances when there is no second chance after the second coming of JESUS.

Again: our Father does NOT operate in a Heavenly gambling casino.

There is zero chance in His great plan of at-one-ment!

 

[agapelove]

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hebrews 10:26-27 – For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

Does that say the sacrifice of Christ is "no longer applicable" forever & ever like a fictional unpardonable sin, or "no longer applicable" as long as it is rejected & not being applied?

Here's one opinion in that regard:

"The verb "sin" in this verse is present tense (as are the verbs "remains" and "will consume"). Since present tense in Greek typically indicates an ongoing, continuous action, the passage can better be translated as: "For if we continuously sin deliberately, after having once received the knowledge of the truth, there continuously remains no further sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will continuously consume the adversaries."

"So if one ceases to continuously sin by remaining apart from the Messiah, then Messiah's sacrifice for one's sins becomes operative again. It is now available for one since one has stopped the continuous sin of apostasy and can now be united with Christ. (Note the parallelism of the continuous sinning with the continuous remaining of no further sacrifice; when the former vanishes, the latter does as well—and the same is true of a person who continuously fails to repent of sin in general.) Thus if an apostate (to Judaism or whatever else) ceases to be an apostate, he can be saved. There is no unforgivable sin taught in this text."

Indeed this was my point. Wicked = ongoing unrepentant sin.

Hebrews 6 and 10 - A Universalist Reaction?

Hebrews 10:26-27

Heb.10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. (NASB)
Heb.10:18 But where there [is] remission of these, [there is] no longer a sacrifice for sin. (DBY)
Heb.10:18 and where forgiveness of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (YLT)

Heb.10:26 there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, {RSV}
Heb.10:26 there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,{AV}

"There is no more offering for sin...there is left no place for the Levitical sacrifices under the new covenant." (Vincent's Word Studies)

Heb.10:12 But when this Priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the right hand of God.
Heb.7:27 Unlike the other high priests, He does not need to offer daily sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people;
He sacrificed for sin once for all when He offered up Himself.

"there is no more offering for sin; there may be other offerings, as of praise and thanksgiving, but none for sin; "there is no need", as the Syriac version; or there is not required, as the Arabic version; there is no need of the reiteration of Christ's sacrifice, nor will he be offered up any more, nor of the repetition of legal sacrifices, nor ought they to continue any longer. The Jews themselves say (w), that

"in the time to come (i.e. in the times of the Messiah) all offerings shall cease, but the sacrifice of praise.''

And one of their writers says (x), when

"the King Messiah, the son of David, shall reign, there will be no need of "an atonement", nor of deliverance, or prosperity, for all these things will be had;'' (Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible)

Hebrews 10:18 Commentaries: Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

The NIV Study Bible notes to Heb.10:18 say that "no additional sacrifice for sins is needed" {p.1870}.

Heb.10:26 For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the full knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains in reserve any other sacrifice for sins. {WEY}

"there remains no further sacrifice for sin": since Christ's work on the cross dying for the world's sins is the sacrifice that ends all sacrifices for sin, there is no other place to go but Christ for the forgiveness we all need, both at salvation as unbelievers and thereafter as members of His Body.

This is allegedly from Marvin Vincent's commentary in his New Testament Word Studies:

"The writer does not touch the question of the possibility of God’s renewing such to repentance. He merely puts his own hypothetical case, and says that, in the nature of such a case, the ordinary considerations and means which are applied to induce men to embrace the gospel no longer appeal to the subjects supposed. He contemplates nothing beyond such agencies, and asserts that these are powerless because the man has brought himself into a condition where they can no longer exert any power."

"Whether God will ever reclaim by ways of his own is a point which is not even touched. Destruction of the faculty of spiritual discernment is the natural outcome of deliberate and persistent sin, and the instrument of its punishment. Note, “renew unto repentance.” God promises pardon on penitence, but not penitence on sin."

Hebrews 10 and 6

"The assertion of Kurtz, that, if this remark were true, the author would be expressing “a dogma in its consequences truly subversive, and destructive of the whole Christian soteriology,” inasmuch as it would “imperatively follow therefrom, that even under the New Covenant only those who transgressed from ignorance and error could find forgiveness with God for Christ’s sake, while all who had been guilty of a conscious and intentional sin must beyond hope of deliverance fall victims to the judgment of everlasting damnation,” is a precipitate one, since the special limitation within which the expression ἑκουσίως ἁμαρτάνειν was used was naturally afforded to the reader, quite apart from the investigation already preceding at Hebrews 6:4 ff., even from our section itself." (Meyer's NT Commentary)......

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejecters would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Goodness I have never heard such nonsense cut and paste repitiation but happy to show why for those who may be interested. The main problem in your post here is that your ignoring the context that disagrees with your interpretation of the scriptures. Here let's show why be examining the passage context to chapter contexts...

HEBREWS 10:10-14 is in reference and CONTEXT to HEBREWS 10:1-9 which is comparing the SHADOW laws in sin offerings and burnt offereings for forgiveness of sin from the OLD COVENANT *HEBREWS 10:1-9 that was daily to Christs perfect sacrifice HEBREWS 10:10-14 which only had to be offered once for all the sins of all mankind past, present and into the future (all time) *HEBREWS 10:10-14 as being all sufficient to those who believe and follow God's Word. The meaning here is no more animal sacrifices for sin are required because Chrsits death on the cross is our complete sacrifice everytime sin is committed to those who are "sanctified" * HEBREWS 10:29; once and for all *HEBREWS 10:10 and for all time *HEBREWS 10:14.

Moving on to HEBREWS 10:23-27 we come to the "WARNINGS" to "BELIEVERS" to "HOLD FAST THE PROFESSION OF OUR FAITH" *HEBREWS 10:23 NOT TO " SIN WILLFULLY AFTER RECEIVING AND KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD

[26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
[27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
[28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE?
[30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

*HEBREWS 10:26; then to HEBREWS 10:29 [29], Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace?

The WARNING here in context is to "BELIEVERS" (THOSE WHO ARE SANCTIFIED BY THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT - CHRIST SACRIFICE) not to "SIN WILLFULLY" after receiving a KNOWLEDGE of the truth *HEBREWS 10:26 continuing to HEBREWS 10:29 of those who BELIEVERS who "SIN WILLFULLY" [29], Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he (those who sin willfully) be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, with which HE WAS SANCTIFIED ἁγιάζω, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace?

CONTEXT: here to this WARNING to BELIEVERS (If WE v26) is to those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS that SIN WILLFULLY after receiveing a knowledge of the truth. HEBREWS 10:29 stating their punishment after being SANCTIFIED ἁΓΙΆΖΩ, (past tense to was)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 37: sanctified ἁγιάζω MEANS TO PURIFY BY EXPIATION, FREE FROM THE GUILT OF SIN : 1 Corinthians 6:11; Ephesians 5:26; Hebrews 10:10, Hebrews 10:14, Hebrews 10:29; Hebrews 13:12; Hebrews 2:11 (equivalent to כִּפֶר, Exodus 29:33, 36); cf. Pfleiderer, Paulinismus, p. 340ff (English translation 2:68f).

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to sanctify From hagios; TO MAKE HOLY, i.e. (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate -- hallow, be holy, sanctify.

Note what is shown here in HEBREWS 10:26-29?

1. Warning to believers (if we believers) sin willfully after receiving a knowledge of the truth v26
2. How much more greater will their punishment be v29
3. They were (past tense) made holy purified from the guilt of sin (sanctified) by the blood of the covenant v29
4. By sinning willfully count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing v29
5. Had received God's Spirit but grieved and insulted it v29.

This warning is referring to those who fall into apostasy is τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς χάριτος ἐνυβρίσας, “and insult the spirit of grace”. The spirit of grace is the distinctive gift of Christian times. To have blasphemed this gracious Spirit, who brings the assurance of God’s presence and pardon, and gifts suited to each believer, is to renounce all part in things spiritual. HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 2:4; EPHESIANS 4:7

The CONTEXT of v29 clearly shows that PAUL is addressing the BELIEVERS. The section above concludes with...

[35], Cast not away therefore your confidence, which has great recompense of reward.
[36], For you have need of patience, that, after you have done the will of God, you might receive the promise.
[37], For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
[38], Now the just shall live by faith: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK [Believers going back to willful sin see v26-29], my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
[39], But WE ARE NOT OF THEM WHO DRAW BACK TO PERDITION; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

................

CONCLUSION: HEBREWS 10:26-39 is talking about those who return back to sin after they have been given a knowledge of the truth of God's Word and reject it in order to live in unrepentant sin. By doing so they reject the gift of Gods dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing dispite to the Spirit of God's grace and for them there remains no more sacrifice for sin because they have rejected God's Word in order to continue in sin. There is only one outcome according to these scriptures and that is [27] A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES. This will be a greater punishment as they were given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word and chose to turn away from it and reject God and his Word v29. The wicked here are then said to receive God's vengence in v30 which 2 THESSALONIANS 1:8-9 defines as destruction.

Hope this helps.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Nonsense aka gobbledygook!

You are attempting to add your ideas to the Scripture (again).

The time frame is NOT in the passage in Philippians!

What is there = the scope of every being, in every dimension worshipping Him in union with His Name.

“Wherefore God has highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”

At = en

The name = anoma

Jesus = Iēsous

Every = pas

Should bow = kamptō

Heaven = epouranios

Earth = epigeros

Underworld = katachtonios

"He thought of everything, provided for everything we could possibly need, letting us in on the plans he took such delight in making. He set it all out before us in Christ, a long-range plan in which everything would be brought together and summed up in him, everything in deepest heaven, everything on planet earth. It’s in Christ that we find out who we are and what we are living for. Long before we first heard of Christ and got our hopes up, he had his eye on us, had designs on us for glorious living, part of the overall purpose he is working out in everything and everyone."

1. All beings.
   
   
2. All dimensions.
   
   
3. In union with the Name.
   
   
4. Pas = radically means all.

Not really dear friend. God's Word is not gobbleydook, The gobbleydook is the polluted waters of broken cisterns of believing and following man made teachings and traditions that lead others away from the Word of God to follow the gambling lady of second chances. All that follow her ways follow a path that is not narrow and many there be that go in there at. We must drink of the living waters dear friend that give life. Do you know dear friend what these living waters are and how we drink them?

 

[ClementofA]

You have not addressed anything in my earliar post the shows the context you left out.

I did address them by stating this:

You can either believe some human opinion, like that of John Gill that you posted, or you can choose to believe Lam.3:31-33 above. Your choice. Up to you.

And the context doesn't change this:

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

Your claims here have been clearly refurted already in a post you have not even bothered to read or address.

Nonsense. How would you know what i read or didn't read? Can you read minds? Are you omniscient? I did read the human opinions you posted. And addresss them (see above). What else is there to say. Nothing in them changed Lam.3:31-33 KJV or refuted anything i said. If you think so, point it out & explain why. That's the proper way to do things.

I have shown you already the context you left out of these scriptures that prove that LAMENTATIONS is in regards to ISRAEL'S (God's peoples) punishments for sin.

So what? Lam,3:31-33 KJV - EXPANDS upon that and goes further to include "men" in general. Or do you not believe what is in front of your eyes? Or do you think God cannot speak of both Israel and "men" in general in the same context? That would be limiting God, wouldn't it? Would you want to limit God? Should that not worry you?

Why you continue to ignore this is beyond me. As shown earlier through the scriptures....

Sorry dear friend but LAMENTATIONS 3 is over ISRAELS afflictions (God's poeple) for departing from God and sinning against him and returning to God in repentance. Context matter dear friend. Your leaving it off again...

[26], It is good that a man should both hope and quietly WAIT FOR THE SALVATION OF THE LORD.
[27], It is good for a man that he bear the yoke of his youth.
[28], He sits alone and keeps silence, because he has borne it on him.
[29], He puts his mouth in the dust; if so be there may be hope.
[30], He gives his cheek to him that smites him: he is filled full with reproach.
[31], FOR THE LORD WILL NOT CAST OFF FOR EVER:

[39], WHY DOES A LIVING MAN COMPLAIN, A MAN FOR THE PUNISHMENT OF HIS SINS?
[40], LET US SEARCH AND TRY OUR WAYS, AND TURN AGAIN TO THE LORD.
[41], LET US LIFT UP OUR HEART WITH OUR HANDS TO GOD IN THE HEAVENS.
[42], WE HAVE TRANSGRESSED AND HAVE REBELLED: YOU HAVE NOT PARDONED.

...............

Benson Commentary
Lamentations 3:31-33. The Lord will not cast off for ever — The truly penitent that put their trust in him, and sincerely desire and seek reconciliation with him: though he may for a time appear to estrange himself from them, yet he will certainly return to them. Though he cause grief — Though, as a prudent parent, he may see reason to chastise his people by affliction, yet as a kind and tender Father, who pitieth his children in misery, according to the multitude, the unspeakable greatness and abundance of his mercies, he will have compassion upon them. For he doth not afflict willingly — Hebrew, מלבו, from his heart, that is, of his own mere motion, without cause given him by the persons afflicted; or freely and with pleasure; nor grieve the children of men — Much less his own children. Hence judgment is called his strange work, and exercising mercy and loving-kindness his delight.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For the Lord will not cast off for ever. Which is not to be understood of all his creatures; for there are some he does cast off for ever, as the angels that sinned; reprobate men, profligate and abandoned sinners, that live and die impenitent; and unbelievers, carnal professors, and apostates; but not his own special and peculiar people, the people whom he has foreknown and loved with an everlasting love, his spiritual Israel; or, as the Targum supplies it, "his servants"; see Psalm 94:14; he may seem for a while to reject them, but not in reality and for ever; as when he hides his face from them, lays his afflicting hand on them, or suffers then, to be afflicted by others, and defers his help, and does not immediately appear to their deliverance and salvation; but in reality he never rejects them from being his people, his servants, and his sons; they have always a place in his heart, and are ever under his eye and care; they continue in his covenant, and abide in his family; and though they may be cast down in their souls, and cast out by men, yet are not cast off by God, neither in youth nor old age, in time or eternity; his love is unchangeable; his purposes firm and unalterable; his counsel, covenant, oath, and promise, immutable; and they are his jewels, his portion, and inheritance; and this is a ground and reason of bearing patiently all afflictions, injuries, and reproaches; for though men cast off, God will not.

It seems dear friend God's Word disagrees with you and the posts your providing are simply smoke and mirrors. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.

Gods' Sheep hear his Voice (the Word) and follow him.

Here you just repeat your previous comments with some empty fluff added. Nothing changes the facts that i've posted above. So should you not be worried?

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

 

[ClementofA]

Not really dear friend but we know that the many are called but only the few are chosen *MATTHEW 22:14 and that thou God's proffessed poeple are like the sand of the sea only a remnant shall be saved *ROMANS 9:27. Those who truly follow God all through time have always only been a remnant *ROMANS 11:5. Now these are the Words of God in regards to those who are saved to the chosen people of God we are not even talking about the wicked here who are not saved but destroyed after the second coming of Christ in the clouds of heaven.

"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27).

In context, this is limited to events in "the earth" (v.28), not final destiny (Rom.5:18; 11:26-32; Mt.1:21 + 2:6) after the yet future millennium ends and the earth has passed away & there is a new heavens & a new earth (Revelation 20-22; 1 Cor.15:22-28).

One take or conceivable possibility on the specifics of it is as follows:

"27 Isaiah's testimony is to the same effect. A remnant in Israel shall be saved in the coming time of reckoning. These are seen in [the book of Revelation] as the hundred and forty-four thousand and the vast throng" (Rev. 7:4, 9)".

Rom.11:5
"Even so then ***at this present time*** also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

"Rom 9:27 says one thing yet Rom 11:26 states: "And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;Note that Rom 9:27 does not state ONLY the remnant will be saved. It simply states the remnant will be saved which is a true statement. The rest of Israel outside of the remnant will also be saved as Rom 11:26 attests to."

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Rom.1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Worthy of death, not endless tortures or endless annihilation.

Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom.11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath imprisoned them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

36 For out of him, and through him, and into him, is all: to whom be glory into the eons. Amen.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"Not that Paul’s argument there is difficult to follow. What preoccupies him is the agonizing mystery that the Messiah has come, yet so few of the house of Israel have accepted him, while so many Gentiles—outside the covenant—have. What then of God’s faithfulness to his promises? It is not an abstract question regarding who is “saved” and who “damned”: By the end of chapter 11, the former category proves to be vastly larger than that of the “elect,” or the “called,” while the latter category makes no appearance at all. It is a concrete question concerning Israel and the Church. And ultimately Paul arrives at an answer drawn, ingeniously, from the logic of election in Hebrew Scripture.

Before reaching that point, however, in a completely and explicitly conditional voice, he limns the problem in the starkest chiaroscuro. We know, he says, that divine election is God’s work alone, not earned but given; it is not by their merit that Gentile believers have been chosen. “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (9:13)—here quoting Malachi, for whomJacob is the type of Israel and Esau the type of Edom. For his own ends, God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. He has mercy on whom he will, hardens whom he will (9:15–18). If you think this unjust, who are you, O man, to reproach God who made you? May not the potter cast his clay for purposes both high and low, as he chooses (9:19–21)? And, so, what if (ei de, quod si) God should show his power by preparing vessels of wrath, solely for destruction, to provide an instructive counterpoint to the riches of the glory he lavishes on vessels prepared for mercy, whom he has called from among the Jews and the Gentiles alike (9:22–24)? Perhaps that is simply how it is: The elect alone are to be saved, and the rest left reprobate, as a display of divine might; God’s faithfulness is his own affair.

Well, so far, so Augustinian. But so also, again, purely conditional: “What if . . . ?” Rather than offering a solution to the quandary that torments him, Paul is simply restating it in its bleakest possible form, at the very brink of despair. But then, instead of stopping here, he continues to question God’s justice after all, and spends the next two chapters unambiguously rejecting this provisional answer altogether, in order to reach a completely different—and far more glorious—conclusion.

Throughout the book of Genesis, the pattern of God’s election is persistently, even perversely antinomian: Ever and again the elder to whom the birthright properly belongs is supplanted by the younger, whom God has chosen in defiance of all natural “justice.” This is practically the running motif uniting the whole text, from Cain and Abel to Manasseh and Ephraim. But—this is crucial—it is a pattern not of exclusion and inclusion, but of a delay and divagation that immensely widens the scope of election, taking in the brother “justly” left out in such a way as to redound to the good of the brother “unjustly” pretermitted. This is clearest in the stories of Jacob and of Joseph, and it is why Esau and Jacob provide so apt a typology for Paul’s argument. For Esau is not finally rejected; the brothers are reconciled, to the increase of both precisely because of their temporary estrangement. And Jacob says to Esau (not the reverse), “Seeing your face is like seeing God’s.”

And so Paul proceeds. In the case of Israel and the Church, election has become even more literally “antinomian”: Christ is the end of the law so that all may attain righteousness, leaving no difference between Jew and Gentile; thus God blesses everyone (10:11–12). As for the believing “remnant” of Israel (11:5), they are elected not as the number of the “saved,” but as the earnest through which all of Israel will be saved (11:26), the part that makes the totality holy (11:16). And, again, the providential ellipticality of election’s course vastly widens its embrace: For now, part of Israel is hardened, but only until the “full entirety” (pleroma) of the Gentiles enter in; they have not been allowed to stumble only to fall, however, and if their failure now enriches the world, how much more so will their own “full entirety” (pleroma); temporarily rejected for “the world’s reconciliation,” they will undergo a restoration that will be a “resurrection from the dead” (11:11–12, 15).

This, then, is the radiant answer dispelling the shadows of Paul’s grim “what if,” the clarion negative: There is no final “illustrative” division between vessels of wrath and of mercy; God has bound everyone in disobedience so as to show mercy to everyone (11:32); all are vessels of wrath so that all may be made vessels of mercy.

Not that one can ever, apparently, be explicit enough. One classic Augustinian construal of Romans 11, particularly in the Reformed tradition, is to claim that Paul’s seemingly extravagant language—“all,” “full entirety,” “the world,” and so on—really still means just that all peoples are saved only in the “exemplary” or “representative” form of the elect. This is, of course, absurd. Paul is clear that it is those not called forth, those allowed to stumble, who will still never be allowed to fall. Such a reading would simply leave Paul in the darkness where he began, reduce his glorious discovery to a dreary tautology, convert his magnificent vision of the vast reach of divine love into a ludicrous cartoon of its squalid narrowness. Yet, on the whole, the Augustinian tradition on these texts has been so broad and mighty that it has, for millions of Christians, effectively evacuated Paul’s argument of all its real content. It ultimately made possible those spasms of theological and moral nihilism that prompted John Calvin to claim (in book 3 of The Institutes) that God predestined even the Fall, and (in his commentary on 1 John) that love belongs not to God’s essence, but only to how the elect experience him. Sic transit gloria Evangelii.

Traditio Deformis | David Bentley Hart


"I respectfully view your interpretation as the opposite of most careful Bible students, who recognize here and in its' OT context, God's ability to have mercy however he pleases is precisely that he can choose to have it toward those completely undeserving, such as those you see as "wicked God haters." Indeed, Paul's express point in speaking of those God hates and hardens and those He loves and chooses, Issac vs. Esau, is that Issac whom God loves is not the most wicked or deserving one, but a scoundrel chosen before he ever did anything. He further makes clear that those who experience such a puzzling 'hardening' are not those rejected by God, or consigned to 'hell,' but in chapter 11 that the point of all such binding people over to disobedience is that God will "have mercy upon everyone."

 

[LoveGodsWord]

meme