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The Fall of The Church

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by b_o_b, Mar 30, 2002.

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  1. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Brother, the only thing that my view twists is your traditions which you received from men and not scripture concerning end things. The Holy Ghost-inspired time statments in the New Testament twist your futurist theories, breaking them so they can exist no more.

    Praise the Lord.
    GW
     
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Hey Ron, Here's a thought...

    Instead of posting substance free, personal, attack statements like the one above, why don't you take the very scriptures we preterists cite and show us how they do not mean what we contend they mean.

    Unless of course you can't. (which is what I strongly suspect)

    If you continue to refuse to show us from scripture how we are "wrong", The readers here will be forced to conclude that you are simply unable to do so.

    Time to put up or.........

    P70
     
  3. ex_christian

    ex_christian Member

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    Lambslove quote:


    How do you know those people actually "HEARD" God say the Jesus is the messaiah? Has God ever spoke to you in a loud booming voice from the sky lambslove? I am asking if Jesus himself said that for a reason. I think I have a pretty good idea of who Jesus really was, all I need is this and my beliefs will be confirmed. I think ppl haven't posted anything b/c they know he neer said it and dont want to admit that what they have been taught all their life may be wrong. Have some courage and stick up for what you believe in, by all means. Just as long as you dont let things cloud your mind and as long as you look at things objectively.

    Please I ask you again, has Jesus himself ever said anything like "I am the one and ONLY son of God"?
     
  4. RKF

    RKF Member

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    Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

    Here the devil did!

    Mat 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

    Again!

    Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

    Mark did!

    Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

    The centurion did!

    Mar 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

    Some more devils did!

    Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Even the angels did!

    Luk 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking [them] suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

    Again!

    Luk 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, [thou] Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.

    Again!

    Luk 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.Jhn 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    Well are you seeing a pattern!

    Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

    Not Nathaneel too!

    Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Jhn 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    Is this Jesus speaking?

    Jhn 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?

    Jesus again!

    Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

    Jesus again!

    Jhn 11:4 When Jesus heard [that], he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby.

    Well?

    Jhn 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

    What did this women say!

    Jhn 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

    Even the jews!

    Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    What is written!

    Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    What Philip preaching!

    Act 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

    I'm seeing the pattern

    Rom 1:4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    2Cr 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, [even] by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.

    Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    Hbr 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.

    These are scriptures, not fiction, but fact-ions
     
  5. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    parousia70:
    Even though I believe the efficacy of the Jewish temple sacrifices stopped at the crucifixion (Matthew 27:51, Hebrews 7:18-27), and not in 70 AD, I believe "the temple of God" in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 refers to a literal Jewish temple that will be built, and "the holy place" in Matthew 24:15 refers technically to the inner part of the Jewish temple and to the same future "abomination of desolation" as Daniel 11:31, which refers to "the sanctuary" and "the daily sacrifice."

    GW:
    Please see my reference to this 2nd aspect of antichrist doctrine in my post above, where I said "anyone who currently denies that Jesus is the Christ or denies that Jesus came in the flesh is an antichrist..."

    Please see my prior response to this claim in my post above, in the three paragraphs beginning "Again, even though the 'spirit of antichrist' is already in the world, this doesn't mean the antichrist himself has come, just as the Spirit of Christ is already in the world but this doesn't mean Christ himself has come again..."

    But is it absent from the present world? As I asked before, "No one today denies Jesus is the Christ, or denies that he came in the flesh?"

    As I asked above, "Even the part of Daniel referred to in Matthew 24:15?"

    As I asked above, "Can you show from historical sources how 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and each verse of Revelation 13 and Revelation 11 and Revelation 16 and Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 and Revelation 21-22 were all fulfilled? And how Christ's 2nd coming was 'immediately' after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), was seen by every eye (Revelation 1:7), brought the resurrection and rapture of the entire church (1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), and destroyed the Antichrist? (2 Thessalonians 2:8)"

    As I replied in my post above, Luke 21:20-24 cannot already have happened because when the city will be trodden down for 42 months the temple will remain (Revelation 11:1-2). Passages such as Revelation 11 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 13 have not been fulfilled yet.

    It does insofar as, for just one example, I believe the 10 toes of the image in Daniel 2:42-44 which are referred to as "these kings" could all come from the territory of the former Roman Empire, for it historically matches the fourth empire described in Daniel 2:37-41, and they could be the same as the 10 end-time kings of Revelation 17:12-17 which ultimately will "have one mind" and give their power to the Antichrist (Revelation 17:13), so that Europe and the Middle East and North Africa may combine politically again, just as they were combined by the Roman Empire.

    Jesus said the Kingdom of God was "at hand" in Mark 1:15, or near to coming, and spoke of it as a future time: "Ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out" (Luke 13:28); as did Paul in the context of our future resurrection: "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50).

    When did Jesus sit on the throne of David? (Luke 1:32)

    When were the following passages fulfilled?

    "He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (Revelation 2:26-29).

    "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles" (Zechariah 14:16-18).

    "And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it. And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them. In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians. In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance" (Isaiah 19:21-25).

    "He shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid" (Micah 4:3-4).

    Note that Daniel 9 doesn't refer to 490 years.

    I don't believe I have, but those which I believe some other men have come up with.

    And I believe it is strong and clear evidence.

    As I replied to this claim in my post above, "Not to those much closer to that time than we..."

    Not when they coincide regarding the events that must occur regarding the Antichrist. As I asked before, "How did Nero fulfill each verse of Revelation 13?"

    Can you quote the historical source which describes his acts which fulfilled 2 Thessalonians 2:4 -- sitting in the temple and exalting himself above God -- and then him being destroyed by Christ's return in 2 Thessalonians 2:8? What historical source shows Revelation 19:19-21 fulfilled?

    I don't believe Revelation anywhere demands a 1st century fulfillment, and indeed we find no such fulfillment in history.

    It was available from the moment of the crucifixion:

    "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom" (Matthew 27:51).

    "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith" (Hebrews 10:19-22).

    The Mosaic law was already removed before 70 AD:

    "There is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof" (Hebrews 7:18).

    "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Hebrews 7:12).

    "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" (Hebrews 10:9).

    "There is no more offering for sin" (Hebrews 10:18).

    "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man" (Ephesians 2:15).

    "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:14).

    "If the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:7-13).

    Note that he promised them they would die before he came (Revelation 2:10).

    We do not find the 2nd coming events of Revelation 19 and Matthew 24:29-31 fulfilled anytime in the 1st century. Indeed, they have not been fulfilled to this day, so that Jesus' warnings to the churches of Asia must be warnings against complacency. Similarly, Revelation 3:20 was a positive encouragement to repentance that did not require the 2nd coming.

    Rather, I believe preterism, especially full preterism, effectively nullifies all of the highly detailed prophecies in passages such as Revelation 13 and Revelation 11 and Revelation 16 and Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 and Revelation 21-22, rendering them pointless and without any historical fulfillment.

    Rather, I am claiming that preterism effectively voids Christ's prophecies.

    I don't believe we can, if we are preterists.

    Full preterism destroys the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18) as it destroys our hope in the coming return of Christ (Titus 2:13, 1 Peter 1:13) and our resurrection into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:52-55), and it and partial preterism hinder Christians from knowing, understanding, and preparing themselves for the sufferings and deceptions that are coming soon (Mark 13:23).

    Future events will undo preterism completely, and reveal the damage it has done.

    Clearly it wasn't, for it was not fulfilled in their time. To God, Revelation will indeed shortly come to pass, for to him a thousand years are as one day (2 Peter 3:8), but we men need "long patience" in waiting for the 2nd coming, even though it draws nearer with each passing day (James 5:7-8).

    John endured the tribulation which all Christians must and have gone through (Acts 14:22), but the end-times tribulation of Revelation 6-19 was yet in the future (Revelation 4:1), and still is.

    In the parable of the fig tree, I believe Jesus was saying that the generation that saw the re-establishment of the nation of physical Israel (the rebudding of the fig tree) would see the tribulation and 2nd coming (Matthew 24:32-34). The nation of physical Israel was re-established in 1948 and I believe a generation is 70 years, for Psalm 90:10 speaks of how long it takes for a generation to pass away, which is exactly what Jesus refers to.

    I believe Daniel 9:25-27 confirms that the nation of physical Israel would be restored at the beginning of the same 70 "weeks" in which the abomination of desolation and Christ's coming would occur. In the Hebrew, "week" is the word for "seven" (shebuah), which has for its root the word for "complete" (shaba), so that "weeks" may represent "completions," which may be years.

    The "last days" began as early as Pentecost (Acts 2:16-17), but "the end" will include events which have not yet transpired (Matthew 24:6), such as those in Revelation 13.
     
  6. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Postrib,
    While I am well aware that is what you believe, your re affirmation of that belief does little or nothing to address my question so I'll rephrase it and ask it again.

    How can any stone building built my modern day Christ rejecting, Gospel denying people be any more "Gods Temple" than the Muslim "Dome of the rock" that stands there now?

    I'll leave the rest directed at GW for GW, however, If he dosen't mind, I'll post a response of His from another thread that quite adaquatly addresses one of your questions to him:

    Jesus sits on the throne of David today!
    Acts 2:30-36
    " Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him [David], that of the fruit of his [Davids] loins, according to the flesh, he would "raise up" Christ to sit on his [David's] throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses..."Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ."

    Peter is stating a COMPLETED prophecy has occurred. "He seeing this before SPOKE OF THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST...THIS JESUS HATH GOD RAISED UP."

    Peter sees Christ's resurrection by the Father as one that gave Jesus the eternal and immortal throne of his father David. Jesus took that throne unto himself in Matthew 21:1-17, fulfilling Zechariah 9:9. His death and resurrection made his reign IMMORTAL AND ETERNAL over all of heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18-19).


    Lastly Postrib, regarding your need for Historic evidence of literal prophetic fulfillment, try this one out for size:

    Isaiah 52:10a
    "The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations"

    Where in History can we find evidence of every eye of every person on earth "seeing" Gods literal "arm"?

    Surley such a monumental, global event of Gods actual arm hanging down from heaven for all to see would have been recorded somewhere besides the Bible yes?

    Thanks,
    P70
     
  7. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that even after the crucifixion, Jesus commanded the apostles to speak to the people in "the temple" (Acts 5:20), and Paul went to "the temple" to pray (Acts 22:17) and was found "purified in the temple" (Acts 24:18, 21:26), and in a prophetic vision John measured "the temple of God" that will stand during the coming tribulation while the city of Jerusalem is being trodden under foot by the Gentiles for the 42 months of the Antichrist's rule (Revelation 11:1-2, 13:5).

    Is there a verse which says this?

    Is there a verse which says David's throne is in heaven?

    This has not happened yet. It will happen at the 2nd coming (Revelation 1:7). Only during the millenium will it be said, "O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean" (Isaiah 52:1).

    "In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts" (Zechariah 14:20-21).
     
  8. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    You correctly cite that after the crusifixion, the then standing temple was still referred to as the temple of God.
    In fact, the apostles continued to sacrifice and keep the Law of Moses, at Jesus' command, for even though the Crusifixion rendered the Law of Moses "Obsolete", during the Time of the penning of the NT, had yet to "Vanish" away. (Hebrews 8:13) Only after the Temple was destroyed (not after the "repairable" veil was simply rent as you assert) was the way to the "Holiest of all" finally made manifest. (Hebrews 9:8) The Roman siege of Jerusalem in 66-70 Lasted exactly 42 months, Just as John prophesied, about the "then standing temple" when he penned the Revelation in 68AD



    We have the infallible testimony of Peter. What more evidence do you need? I'll paste it again, and perhaps you can show me how this verse does not mean what I (and the inspired, infallible apostle Peter)contend it means:

    Acts 2:30-36
    " Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him [David], that of the fruit of his [Davids] loins, according to the flesh, he would "raise up" Christ to sit on his [David's] throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses..."Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ."

    Peter is stating a COMPLETED prophecy has occurred. "He seeing this before SPOKE OF THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST...THIS JESUS HATH GOD RAISED UP."

    Peter sees Christ's resurrection by the Father as one that gave Jesus the eternal and immortal throne of his father David. Jesus took that throne unto himself in Matthew 21:1-17, fulfilling Zechariah 9:9. His death and resurrection made his reign IMMORTAL AND ETERNAL over all of heaven and earth (Matthew 28:18-19).

    Postrib says it has not happened, Isaiah says it has.
    Givin that option on which one of you to believe, I am sure you'll understand why I decide to accept the Porphet Isaiah's take on the issue, over and above yours.

    YBIC,
    P70
     
  9. niwde

    niwde Member

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    once again i want to stress that the church will NEVER fall
    u people who say that it will fall r not believing in what jesus said
    and to those people who like to predict about his second coming
    just stop it and don't think u r very smart in inteperating the bible for i tell u that we r all foolish people
    we will never understand god's wisdom unless he reveal to us
    pls close this thread if there is anymore arguments
    thank u
     
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

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    FIRST, 2 Thess 2:4 was speaking of the Temple that was the headquarters for the Jerusalem Church where they kept feasts, vows, blood sacrifices, and worshipped all the way up until AD 66 when the Temple was seized by the Messianic Warrior King Menahem. God destroyed the Temple at AD 70 and no brick-and-mortar temple can ever be Holy again and cannot be the Temple of God. God's Temple now is the Church made up of LIVING stones (Eph 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:5; 2 Cor 6:16). Revelation 11:1-2 pertained to 66-70AD when Babylon the Great City (Jerusalem -- Rev 11:8) was under siege (Rev 11:13).

    SECOND, the standing temple and priesthood during the time of the first followers of Jesus was the Holy Spirit's sign that the way into the holiest of all (Heaven's Temple where Jesus was) was NOT YET MADE MANIFEST WHILE THE FIRST TABERNACLE WAS STILL STANDING (Heb 9:7-8). Christ was the only one allowed to enter that Heavenly Holy of Holies:

    "But Christ, being come an high priest of good things TO COME...by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place" (Heb 9:11-12).

    Now, wouldn't another standing temple in Jerusalem, Holy and appointed by God, signify yet again that the way into Heaven's Temple is closed to believers? Of course it would (Heb 9:7-8). Heb 9:7-8 would then apply. And, if you say that the "so-called future Temple" isn't Holy in Jehovah's eyes, then how can it be profaned or made into an abomination? It could not. So if it IS going to be Holy in Jehovah's eyes then it signifies that believers are closed out of Heaven's Temple. If it IS NOT going to be holy in Jehovah's eyes then neither can any Abomination occur there since it is just as profane as the Islamic Dome of the Rock Temple or any buddhist temple.

    Postrib, you still haven't grasped what St. John taught about antichrist. Antichrist was a 1st century Church heresy (1 Jn 2:18-19) made up of MANY deceivers (2 Jn 1:7; 1 Jn 4:1; 1 Jn 2:18) who taught that Christ's incarnational ministry was not in TRUE flesh (2 Jn 1:7; 1 Jn 4:2-3) and that one could have Jehovah without having Jesus (1 Jn 2:22-23). THAT'S THE SIMPLE, BIBLICAL, AND COMPREHENSIVE definition of Anitchrist. I would urge you to consider abandoning men's traditions about antichrist and stick to the bible's teaching on this topic.

    Of course the Antichrist heresy is not present now, nor has it been for nearly two millennia. It was a last hour event that happened to St. John and his flocks just before the end of the Old Covenant Age when the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed according to the Olivet Discourse.

    I have already given you a full report on how 2 thess 2:4-7 took place and sent you to this link to read the history on it:

    Abomination of Desolation - FULFILLED!

    We also know that Revelation is complete because St. John told us that the vision was set in his time and the time of his original audience (7 historic Churches of Asia Minor):

    Revelation 1:1,3
    The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS...Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.


    St. John also closes the vision which was addressed to his contemporaries with the same kind of time indicator (Rev 22:6-7; 22:10-11).


    Of course it was fulfilled! Jesus said to his apostles:

    "When YOU shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies then know its desolation is near" (Luke 21:20).

    The "YOU" in that verse is Jesus' apostles to whom he was speaking.

    I just find it unimaginable that you maintain that Luke 21:20-22 isn't fulfilled. I don't know any reputable scholars that support your claim.


    The ten horns that are allied with the Beast in Revelation 17:12-17 and who specifically attack the Great City (Jerusalem -- Rev 11:8; Rev 17:18) are Ancient Rome's 10 Imperial provinces. The 10 Imperial nations of Rev 17:16-17 (with their puppet-kings) who lent their strength to Rome for the Roman Jewish war were as follows: Italy, Acaia, Asia, Ceria, Egypt, Africa, Spain, Gaul, Britain and Germany.

    Jesus took to himself the throne of David in Matthew 21:1-17 and Mark 11:1-10. Matthew 21:4-5 claims that this fulfilled Zechariah 9:9 -- "Behold Thy King comes unto thee, meek, and sitting upon a donkey."

    During Christ's triumphal entry to Jerusalem as the Davidic Monarch it was proclaimed: "Hosanna! Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord. Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that comes in the name of the Lord." -- Mark 11:9-10

    Next, after the King's assasination Peter proclaims Christ's Davidic rulership as the Immortal King that David himself never was but that Jesus fulfilled (Acts 2:30-31, 36).

    Brother, your recent post was very long. I have answered the first half of it approximately. I will try to come back and get the rest.

    Thanks,
    GW
     
  11. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    parousia70:
    The Apostle Paul never did this for himself, but only so that he might save some of the old-law-loving Jews: "Unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law" (1 Corinthians 9:20). As elsewhere he circumcised Timothy only for the sake of the old-law-loving Jews: "Him [Timothy] would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek" (Acts 16:3). When Paul was among Gentile believers, he did not keep the law, as neither did Peter: "When Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?" (Galatians 2:11-14)

    In the time of Jeremiah when the prophecy of the new covenant was given.

    It was presently manifest and open to all believers at the time Hebrews was written: "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith" (Hebrews 10:19-22).

    John didn't prophesy Revelation 11 until more than 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, nor can a surrounding of a city's walls and a trampling down of a city be equated, nor did such events as described in great detail in Revelation 11 and Revelation 13 occur during the Roman siege.

    Does this say that David's throne is in heaven, or that Christ is yet sitting upon it?

    But does it day this Jesus hath sat on David's throne?

    When were the following passages fulfilled?

    "He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (Revelation 2:26-29).

    "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles" (Zechariah 14:16-18).

    "And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it. And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them. In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians. In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance" (Isaiah 19:21-25).

    "He shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid" (Micah 4:3-4).

    Note that other verses such as Isaiah 53:5 hadn't happened by the time Isaiah spoke them in the past tense.

    niwde:
    As a whole, no, but members of the church will commit apostasy in the end times. Some say the "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is a pre-trib rapture. But the Greek word for "falling away" is apostasia. It means apostasy. I believe Paul is referring to the same departure from the faith that he refers to in 1 Timothy 4:1 and which Jesus refers to in Matthew 24:10-12.
     
  12. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Actually Paul Did make sacrificial offerings for himself
    (Acts 21:6) Just a Jesus Comanded His apostles to do.
    (Matt 5:17-20), which brings up the point that if "heaven and earth" have not yet passed away, then every Jewish Christian from 30AD through today is required to keep every jot and tittle of the Law, which is impossible without a Temple.


    Hebrews 8:13 is describing a "then present reality", some 30 years after the crusifixion. The OC was Obsolete but was "NOW" ready to vanish away. It had not at that time yet vanished. Please re read Hebrews 8 for clarification of this fact.


    To utalize your own, patented, hair splitting technique here, That passage does not say they HAD ALREADY entered the Holiest of all at that time, but only that they had "Boldness TO enter" and a "near assurance by faith" that they would soon enter where Christ had alone Gone.
    PS: Only after Christ returned could they enter into Gods mansions and be "where he is" (John 14:3)


    Peace,
    P70
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    GW:
    But the efficacy of the Jewish temple sacrifices had stopped at the crucifixion (Matthew 27:51, Hebrews 7:18-27), not in 70 AD.

    It was fully manifest by the time Hebrews was written: "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith" (Hebrews 10:19-22).

    It isn't made into an abomination; a profane abomination is placed in it.

    I believe the "the holy place" in Matthew 24:15 may refer technically to the inner part of the Jewish temple.

    Note that the ground of the temple mount itself can be a holy place in God's eyes as the place of Abraham's obedience in offering Isaac and as the place chosen for the temple from the time of David, without any structure built upon this ground being considered a holy place, that is, the "Rock" can remain holy even though the "Dome of the Rock" is not.

    Billions continue to deny that Jesus is the Christ even today, and the antichrist doctrine of no-fleshly-incarnation-of-Christ continues even today in modern Gnosticism and Theosophy and New Age teachings.

    As we already saw, Irenaeus of Lyons (b.130) clearly says Revelation was written by John "towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 30, Paragraph 3), which ended in 96 AD. How did each verse of Revelation 13 and Revelation 11 and Revelation 16 shortly come to pass after 96 AD? How did the 2nd coming in Revelation 19 shortly come to pass, and how did the millenial reign and great white throne judgment of Revelation 20 and the eternal state of the new heaven and new earth and New Jerusalem of Revelation 21-22 shortly come to pass? To God, all these will indeed shortly come to pass, for to him a thousand years are as one day (2 Peter 3:8), but we men need "long patience" in waiting for the 2nd coming, even though it draws nearer with each passing day (James 5:7-8).

    I believe Luke 21:24 refers to the same treading down of Jerusalem as Revelation 11:2, which was not fulfilled by the Roman siege of Jerusalem, for John didn't prophesy Revelation 11 until more than 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem, nor can a surrounding of a city's walls and a treading under foot of a city be equated, nor did 2 Thessalonians 2:4 or such events as described in great detail in Revelation 11 and Revelation 13 occur during the Roman siege.

    What were the names of the 10 "kings" of these 10 provinces?

    But he didn't sit on David's throne. Hasn't yet.

    Does Acts 2 say that Christ is yet sitting upon David's throne? When were the following passages fulfilled: Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:16-18, Isaiah 19:21-25, Micah 4:3-4?
     
  14. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    parousia70:
    Paul in no way did this for his own relationship with God, but only so that some of the old-law-loving Jews might come into relationship with Christ (1 Corinthians 9:20).

    I believe Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets just as he said he would (Luke 24:44-48), and so was able to abolish the law through his sacrifice on the cross (Psalm 40:6-10, Hebrews 10:4-10, Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14). I believe the old covenant was disannulled by the new covenant (Hebrews 7:18, 12).

    I don't believe Matthew 5:17-18 means that heaven and earth would pass away before the law passed away, but that the law had to be fulfilled before heaven and earth passed away.

    Rather, the reality once Jeremiah's prophecy was spoken.

    Believers in Paul's time had already (Ephesians 2:6).

    Christ has not yet returned (Revelation 19). Jesus said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He says nothing about his making a U-turn back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millenium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).
     
  15. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Not true.

    Hebrews 9:8-9
    the Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy [places], the first tabernacle having yet a standing; WHICH IS A SIMILE IN REGARD TO THE PRESENT TIME in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered, which are not able, in regard to conscience, to make perfect him who is serving, only in victuals, and drinks, and different baptisms, and fleshly ordinances -- till the time of reformation imposed upon [them]. And Christ being come chief priest of the coming good things... (YLT)

    So the writer of Hebrews is applying this to HIS TIME AT WHICH HE WRITES, for the Temple was still standing and believers in Christ as well as their unbelieving kin were still observing the Law in Jerusalem (as was also commanded in Matt 5:17-19). The time of reformation was AD70 when no longer could ANY offer gifts and sacrifices which are not able to make perfect him who is serving -- Hebrews 8:13 shows us this Old Covenant was ABOUT TO vanish away at the time the book was written. And so Christ in Heb 9:11 is called the Chief Priest of "THE COMING GOOD THINGS." [notice it is future to the writer of Hebrews and not yet fully present while the Temple is standing and many are making sacrifices]


    You have argued that some future brick-and-mortar will be the "TEMPLE OF GOD." This is SERIOUS stuff here if we are going to go backwards in the plan of redemption at some future time. If God erects a new brick-and-mortar home for himself in Jerusalem then Hebrews 9:7-9 regains its meaning that the way into Heaven's Temple is again not available to believers as was the case at the time the writer of Hebrews was writing.

    Furthermore, Jesus taught that earthly Jerusalem was no longer going to be a "holy place" for God's people (John 4:21) since God wanted his people to worship him "IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH" instead. A future Temple of God in Jerusalem will reverse God's expressed wishes as told by Jesus in John 4:21-24. Next, St. Stephen, in response to the scribes' idolatrous regard of the Temple in Acts 6:13-14, preaches the fact that God is not at all wanting brick-and-mortar temples (Acts 7:46-52)! Does God now want brick-and-mortar Temples to be his headquarters of worship? Perhaps most incriminating is Paul's definintion of earthly Jerusalem as HAGAR AND ISHMAEL in Galatians 4:22-31 -- Paul disinherits earthly Jersualem in its entirety labeling it Hagar and Mt. Sinai. Brother, the Temple Mount is no "holy place in God's eyes" as you seem to think it is or will be.


    That is not at all similar to the antichrist issue St. John was confronting in the first century. St. John's antichrists were defectors from His own flocks as was expected as they had heard it taught from the apostles (1 Jn 2:18-19). There is NOTHING today that remotely matches what St. John was confronting in the Church of his day. The apostles taught St. John that the emergence of these many antichrists would signal that the last hour had finally come! Brother, we are 20 centuries beyond antichrist and that final hour that had come upon the 1st century fledgling Church.



    ALL the evidence for a "late-date" of St. John's book rests upon this one single garbled quote from Irenaeus. The statement by Irenaeus can mean either John or his vision was seen in Domitian's time. AND, he could have actually been referring to Nero too. There is no historic evidence to support that Domitian ever commanded any religious persecution targeting the Church. There is so much internal and external historic evidence to demand the early date that we MUST abandon the misrepresentations of Irenaeus who also taught adamantly that JEsus lived to be 50 years of age and had a 15 year ministry.


    Peter taught that the end of all things was at hand (1 Peter 4:7) and that "it is the time of the beginning of the judgment " (1 peter 4:17). Peter was not contradicting himself later in 2 Peter by saying that God transcends time: a thousand of God's years are as one of our days and one of God's days is as a thousand of our years. This is just Peter's take on Psalm 90:4 that says a thousand years are like a watch in the night (3-6 hours) and as a day.

    The "YOU" in Luke 21:20-22 is the apostles. If they did not see those things Jesus said they would then Jesus is a false prophet.


    Yes, positively -- and Mark 11:10 teaches that the Davic Kingdom was indeed restored when Jesus entered into Jerusalem triumphantly, fulfilling Zechariah 9:9. Now, Acts 2:30-32 says:

    "a prophet therefore, being, and knowing that with an oath God did swear to him, out of the fruit of his loins according to the flesh, TO RAISE UP THE CHRIST TO SIT UPON HIS THRONE, HAVING FORESEEN, HE DID SPEAK CONCERNING THE RISING AGAIN OF THE CHRIST that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. THIS JESUS DID GOD RAISE UP (YLT)
     
  16. GW

    GW Veteran

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    Incorrect.

    Paul purifies himself by following through on his own Nazarite vow (Acts 18:18) right there with men from the Jerusalem Church. James asks Paul to do this SO THAT all would know that Paul walks orderly and keeps the Law (21:24) and so all will know that the rumors about Paul were NOT TRUE (21:24)! Paul does NOT object to James command, but instead purifies himself by offering blood sacrifices prescribed according to Numbers 6:13-21. Paul therefore SHOWED to them that the rumors WERE NOT TRUE and that Paul indeed abides by the decision made at the Jersusalem Council as defined by James in 21:25 and 21:21. Acts 18:18 and Acts 21:23-26 show that Paul was under the Nazarite vow of Numbers 6:1-21!

    And Paul says "I must by all means keep this feast." (Acts 18:21). Paul did it to abide by the decrees reached at the Jerusalem Council of Acts 15 and because he walked orderly and observed the Law throughout his lifetime (Acts 21:24-26).


    No. The Old Covenant was not "about to vanish away" in 500s BC. Jeremiah had said "behold the days come WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT...." But that New Covenant was not made with the houses of Israel and Judah until Jesus Christ did it (Hebrews 8:6-13). So it is incorrect to suggest that the New Covenant had made the Old Covenant Old in Jeremiah's day, for Christ did not come at that time.


    This cannot be something in our future, for it would then undo all the New Covenant realities that FULLY replaced the O.T. shadows at AD70 when the Temple was destroyed according to the Olivet prophecy. Do you really believe God is taking us back now to mandatory observation of the Mosaic Law??? Brother, that Law was a mere "parenthesis" in redemptive history according to Galatians 3:17-4:5. Once Christ had redeemed those that were under the law and granted them adoption as sons the Mosaic Temple and Law Observance was annihilated (AD 70).

    Jude's book documents that very apostasy in his own day as that endtimes crisis was happening at the very time he wrote in the 60s AD! They were apostatizing against Paul in huge masses (2 Tim 1:12-15; 4:3-18). Paul commands Timothy personally to "turn away" from those "last days evildoers" ( 2 Tim 3:1-5; 4:14-15), something Timothy would not be able to do in our times or in the future. That was for HIS time. Timothy, not us, had to be able to turn away from the last days wicked generation and Paul even named Alexander as one of them (2 Tim 4:14-15)
     
  17. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    GW:
    "A figure for the time then present" (Hebrews 9:9).

    "In which were offered both gifts and sacrifices" (Hebrews 9:9).

    Hebrews 9:1-10 is in the past tense; the old practices "stood" (verse 10) only until Christ's sacrifice (verses 11-12) made the new way presently manifest (Hebrews 10:19-22).

    The old covenant was ready to vanish away by the time Jeremiah 31 was written (Hebrew 8:6-13).

    Fully present (Hebrews 10:19-22).

    Note that even after the crucifixion had annulled the temple sacrifices (Hebrews 7:18), Jesus commanded the apostles to speak to the people in "the temple" (Acts 5:20), and Paul went to "the temple" to pray (Acts 22:17) and was found "purified in the temple" (Acts 24:18, 21:26), and in a prophetic vision John measured "the temple of God" that will stand during the coming tribulation while the city of Jerusalem is being trodden under foot by the Gentiles for the 42 months of the Antichrist's rule (Revelation 11:1-2, 13:5).

    We worship in Spirit and in truth now; but the verse doesn't say earthly Jerusalem was no longer going to be a holy place, as it especially will be during the millenium: "This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts" (Zechariah 14:19-21).

    "Worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem" (Isaiah 27:13).

    Modern Gnosticism, called Theosophy or the New Age, denies that Jesus came in the flesh, and so it is the spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3). It will become an even worse enemy to the end-time church than 1st century Gnosticism was to the 1st century church, for the coming Antichrist will be given power over all nations and over the saints (Revelation 13:7).

    The Greek word in 1 John 2:18 for "hour" or "time" (KJV) can refer to any period of time, even of an indefinite length, as in John 4:23, where the same "hour" refers to the present and indefinitely into the future.

    I believe the statement by Irenaeus is clear: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 30, Paragraph 3).
    <p>
    Domitian's reign ended in 96 AD, and was marked by persecution against the Christians flourishing throughout the Roman Empire, to the point where, as Eusebius says, "even those writers who were far from our religion did not hesitate to mention in their histories the persecution and the martyrdoms which took place during it" (Church History, Book 3, Chapter 18). This is why John says he is a "companion in [the] tribulation" (the Greek has a "the" before tribulation), as under that persecution he was banished to "the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 1:9).

    In 1 Peter 4:7 "at hand" is "eggizo," which means to draw near, just as the Lord's return draws nearer with each passing day, but it still requires that we "be patient" (James 5:8).

    1 Peter 4:17 says "the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God." Here there is no "is come" in the Greek, and "must begin" is in the aorist tense, not the present tense. The time of judgment must begin with the church, whenever that time comes.

    Jesus didn't prophesy that the apostles would necessarily see the end-time events themselves; but he did command them to pass on every single thing he taught them to those they preached to (Matthew 28:20).

    Where does Acts 2:30-32 say that Christ is yet sitting upon David's throne? Does Mark 11:10 say Jesus sat upon the throne of David? Was the donkey David's throne?

    Acts 18:18 was not a Nazarite vow, for Cenchrea was not "at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation" (Numbers 6:18).

    Of course, they were true (Galatians 2:11-14).

    For good reason: "Unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law" (1 Corinthians 9:20).

    Paul went to the feast in Jerusalem in order to salute the church there (Acts 18:21-22) and possibly in order to give them the money he had collected for them from the Gentile churches (Romans 15:25-31).

    As soon as God announced the new covenant through Jeremiah, the old covenant instantly became the old covenant as far as God was concerned: "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13), even though God would not actually annul the old covenant until the crucifixion (Matthew 27:51, Hebrews 7:18).

    I believe the millenial practices referred to in passages such as Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 40-48 aren't the Mosaic law. I believe the Mosaic law has been disannulled:

    "For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof" (Hebrews 7:18).

    And the millenial laws are not yet in effect. I believe the millenial sacrifices will be similar to our breaking of the bread and drinking of the wine of communion today: they'll point to the atoning sacrifice of Christ himself. I believe we will not perform communion after the 2nd coming: "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come" (1 Corinthians 11:26).

    Some believe the church can't be subject to the millenial feasts, ceremonies and laws without ceasing to be the church. But the church is not defined by the feasts, ceremonies and laws that it keeps but by the person who is at its head (Colossians 1:18). Just as after Christ's coming and our resurrection we will no longer be keeping the feast of communion (1 Corinthians 5:7-8, 11:26) or the ceremony of marriage (Luke 20:35), yet will still be the church, so at that time we can begin keeping Ezekiel 40-48 (which is not the Mosaic law) and still be the church. Similarly, just as we Christians currently obey the diverse laws of our different countries, yet remain the church, so during the millenium we can all obey the laws which will proceed from Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:3), and still be the church.

    While the "last days" began as early as Pentecost (Acts 2:16-17), "the end" will include events which have not yet transpired (Matthew 24:6), such as those in Revelation 13.
     
  18. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    GW:
    "A figure for the time then present" (Hebrews 9:9).

    "In which were offered both gifts and sacrifices" (Hebrews 9:9).

    Hebrews 9:1-10 is in the past tense; the old practices "stood" (verse 10) only until Christ's sacrifice (verses 11-12) made the new way presently manifest (Hebrews 10:19-22).

    The old covenant was ready to vanish away by the time Jeremiah 31 was written (Hebrew 8:6-13).

    Fully present (Hebrews 10:19-22).

    Note that even after the crucifixion had annulled the temple sacrifices (Hebrews 7:18), Jesus commanded the apostles to speak to the people in "the temple" (Acts 5:20), and Paul went to "the temple" to pray (Acts 22:17) and was found "purified in the temple" (Acts 24:18, 21:26), and in a prophetic vision John measured "the temple of God" that will stand during the coming tribulation while the city of Jerusalem is being trodden under foot by the Gentiles for the 42 months of the Antichrist's rule (Revelation 11:1-2, 13:5).

    We worship in Spirit and in truth now; but the verse doesn't say earthly Jerusalem was no longer going to be a holy place, as it especially will be during the millenium: "This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts" (Zechariah 14:19-21).

    "Worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem" (Isaiah 27:13).

    Modern Gnosticism, called Theosophy or the New Age, denies that Jesus came in the flesh, and so it is the spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3). It will become an even worse enemy to the end-time church than 1st century Gnosticism was to the 1st century church, for the coming Antichrist will be given power over all nations and over the saints (Revelation 13:7).

    The Greek word in 1 John 2:18 for "hour" or "time" (KJV) can refer to any period of time, even of an indefinite length, as in John 4:23, where the same "hour" refers to the present and indefinitely into the future.

    I believe the statement by Irenaeus is clear: "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign" (Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 30, Paragraph 3).

    Domitian's reign ended in 96 AD, and was marked by persecution against the Christians flourishing throughout the Roman Empire, to the point where, as Eusebius says, "even those writers who were far from our religion did not hesitate to mention in their histories the persecution and the martyrdoms which took place during it" (Church History, Book 3, Chapter 18). This is why John says he is a "companion in [the] tribulation" (the Greek has a "the" before tribulation), as under that persecution he was banished to "the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Revelation 1:9).

    In 1 Peter 4:7 "at hand" is "eggizo," which means to draw near, just as the Lord's return draws nearer with each passing day, but it still requires that we "be patient" (James 5:8).

    1 Peter 4:17 says "the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God." Here there is no "is come" in the Greek, and "must begin" is in the aorist tense, not the present tense. The time of judgment must begin with the church, whenever that time comes.

    Jesus didn't prophesy that the apostles would necessarily see the end-time events themselves; but he did command them to pass on every single thing he taught them to those they preached to (Matthew 28:20).

    Where does Acts 2:30-32 say that Christ is yet sitting upon David's throne? Does Mark 11:10 say Jesus sat upon the throne of David? Was the donkey David's throne?

    Acts 18:18 was not a Nazarite vow, for Cenchrea was not "at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation" (Numbers 6:18).

    Of course, they were true (Galatians 2:11-14).

    For good reason: "Unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law" (1 Corinthians 9:20).

    Paul went to the feast in Jerusalem in order to salute the church there (Acts 18:21-22) and possibly in order to give them the money he had collected for them from the Gentile churches (Romans 15:25-31).

    As soon as God announced the new covenant through Jeremiah, the old covenant instantly became the old covenant as far as God was concerned: "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13), even though God would not actually annul the old covenant until the crucifixion (Matthew 27:51, Hebrews 7:18).

    I believe the millenial practices referred to in passages such as Zechariah 14 and Ezekiel 40-48 aren't the Mosaic law. I believe the Mosaic law has been disannulled:

    "For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof" (Hebrews 7:18).

    And the millenial laws are not yet in effect. I believe the millenial sacrifices will be similar to our breaking of the bread and drinking of the wine of communion today: they'll point to the atoning sacrifice of Christ himself. I believe we will not perform communion after the 2nd coming: "For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come" (1 Corinthians 11:26).

    Some believe the church can't be subject to the millenial feasts, ceremonies and laws without ceasing to be the church. But the church is not defined by the feasts, ceremonies and laws that it keeps but by the person who is at its head (Colossians 1:18). Just as after Christ's coming and our resurrection we will no longer be keeping the feast of communion (1 Corinthians 5:7-8, 11:26) or the ceremony of marriage (Luke 20:35), yet will still be the church, so at that time we can begin keeping Ezekiel 40-48 (which is not the Mosaic law) and still be the church. Similarly, just as we Christians currently obey the diverse laws of our different countries, yet remain the church, so during the millenium we can all obey the laws which will proceed from Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:3), and still be the church.

    While the "last days" began as early as Pentecost (Acts 2:16-17), "the end" will include events which have not yet transpired (Matthew 24:6), such as those in Revelation 13.
     
  19. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Pay close attention to the literal greek translation and its verb tenses:

    Hebrews 9:8-9
    the Holy Spirit this evidencing that not yet hath been manifested the way of the holy [places], the first tabernacle having yet a standing; WHICH IS A SIMILE IN REGARD TO THE PRESENT TIME in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered, which are not able, in regard to conscience, to make perfect him who is serving (Young's Literal)


    The writer of Hebrews describes the institution of the Temple System and what it meant to his 1st century audience at the time at which the writer of Hebrews was writing. It does NOT fit your theological presuppositions so you try to get it to say what you want. Doesn't work that way, friend. In fact, you have added to the scriptures at virtually every turn to prop up your futurist superstitions and ignorance about what was decided at the Jerusalem Council concerning the Law.

    You constantly ignore contexts, time contexts, and especially AUDIENCE RELEVEANCE. Don't you know that those 1st century letters were not written to you or me? There's a 1st century history to the Bible that you just ignore by reading yourself into the endtimes passages as if you were back there living in the 1st century. LOL. You have a system that you are bound to maintain against what the scriptures teach. While you surely will not heed my advice, I suggest reading Milton Terry's Hermeneutics and get a copy of Young's Literal Translation to help you get the tenses of verbs down.

    Finally, the "YOU" in the Olivet Discourse is not you and me. It is Christ's apostles. Grammatically and linguistically the Olivet is to and for the apostles. There is no way around it. Brother, we are reading THEIR mail. But, if it makes you feel good to ACT as if those letters were written TO YOU and FOR YOU then have fun! Of course, none of the endtimes prophecies will ever come true in our times -- but, hey, I'm sure you have no lack of fun pretending.

    Best regards,
    GW
     
  20. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Hebrews 9:8-9 clearly states in the past tense that under the old covenant the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, and that the old covenant practices were a figure "for the time then present," while Hebrews 9:15 and 10:19-22 clearly state in the present tense that the new covenant is manifest, and in the past tense that their hearts have been sprinkled and their bodies washed.

    Matthew 24 was written for whoever will be alive when it is fulfilled, which it still has not been. For in no history do we find that the stars fell from heaven and the sign of the Son of man appeared in heaven, at which all the tribes of the earth mourned; nor does any history describe how all the tribes of the earth saw when the Son of man came in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and sent his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they gathered together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:29-31). None of this has been fulfilled.

    I thank God that the hope of Christ's second coming and our resurrection and gathering together to him is still very much alive.
     
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