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The Fall of The Church

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by b_o_b, Mar 30, 2002.

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  1. Hoonbaba

    Hoonbaba Catholic Preterist

    +39
    Catholic
    Hi Postrib,

    Isn't that just your interpretation of this passage? There are partial-preterists who acknowledge Matthew 24:3-34 as having been completely fulfilled, yet they still believe in the future coming of Christ. The partial preterist view at the very least still fits with 'orthodoxy'.

    God bless!

    -Jason
     
  2. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    The text does not say "THEN present," (meaning before AD 30) but rather says "THE PRESENT TIME," meaning the 60s AD when the book of Hebrews was written and when the church of those hebrews were still carrying out a Judaic form of Christianity including Law practices. Many were believing falsely they would be saved via the Mosaic system which WAS STILL PRESENT.

    Hebrews 9:9
    which is a simile in regard TO THE PRESENT TIME, in which both gifts and sacrifices ARE OFFERED, which are not able, in regard to conscience, to make perfect him who is serving [/b]



    Next, Christ had become a promise of "good things TO COME." (again, future):


    Colossians 2:16-17
    Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the THINGS TO COME

    Hebrews 10:1
    For the law having a shadow OF GOOD THINGS TO COME

    Hebrews 9:11
    But Christ having become a high priest of the good THINGS TO COME


    They were still looking forward for those things TO COME. At the time at which they were writing, the entire Mosaic economy was a shadow of new things that were not yet fully present. No doubt, for they lived in a world dominated entirely by the Mosaic Law system and even the early Church followed Jesus within that Mosaic framework and Temple worship and practice. So to them, the New Covenant Age as we know it simply didn't exist yet. But that Mosaic system which governed the whole nation and greatly influcenced the early Church was a shadow of good things to come -- namely the New Covenant Age beyond AD 70 when the Mosaic Temple system was not standing and exerting power over jews struggling to be found in Christ by abandoning their old religion.

    That is gramatically impossible. The text doesn't say it. The "YOU" throughout the Olivet is Christ's contemporary audience to whom he was speaking. He spoke about THEIR generation according to the text. Jesus could not err.

    It is not alive as a hope, but rather is here as a reality. We are already gathered to him and the dead O.T. saints were already raised out of hades.
     
  3. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Impossible. The greek "mello" is "to be about to be" and is a time statement. The Old Covenant was not about to vanish away in the 500s BC. It was, however, about to vanish away at the time Hebrews was written. For within a decade after Hebrews was written the Law of Moses was destroyed as Christ's Olivet Discourse prophecies about the Temple were fulfilled. In Galatians we see a great many followers of Jesus returning to the Law of Moses. If it had vanished at AD 30 then such a problem could not have been so prevalent in the early Church. Paul was preaching to LAW-OF-MOSES-KEEPING followers of Jesus to inform them that if they continued to do those practices in hope of righteousness then they would be doomed. So, we see that the Law fully existed until AD 70 and a huge number of followers of "The Way" were entangled in which righteousness they were going to choose as they looked forward to salvation (Rom 13:11; 1 Peter 1:3-5; Heb 9:28; Rom 8:23-25).

    No one had ascended to heaven as of the time John 3:13 was written. David was not ascended to Heaven as of Acts 2:34. Daniel was not going to stand in the inheritance until the last days according to Daniel 12:13, so he is not in Heaven yet. And John 14:1-3 shows that the apostles would not be in Heaven's mansions with Jesus until the parousia:

    John 14:1-3
    'Let not your heart be troubled, believe in God, also believe in me; in the house of my Father are many mansions; and if not, I would have told you; I go on to prepare a place for you; and if I go on and prepare for you a place, again do I come, and will receive you unto myself

    If Christ has not yet returned then Heaven is not available and the dead are still in hades, which isn't destroyed until Rev 20 and 1 Cor 15:55-56 takes place. You think those passages are future, and therefore no one is in Heaven.


    Rather, DID commit apostasy in the endtimes. Jude's one chapter book documents the endtimes apostasy at the very time it was happening. It is history as proven in our bibles.
     
  4. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    The text reads "for the PRESENT TIME" in which "ARE OFFERED."


    The greek word "mello" is a time statement: "to be about to be." The Old Covenant was not about to vanish in the 500s BC. Paul taught that the Old Covenant was still existent:

    Gal 4:24-25
    "for these are the two covenants: the one from the Mount Sinai bearing children for bondage, which is Hagar. For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia AND ANSWERS TO JERUSALEM WHICH NOW IS AND IS IN BONDAGE WITH HER CHILDREN."



    It was to be replaced by worship in spirit and truth, and has been. Jesus said "the hour is coming when ye shall neither in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem worship the Father."

    Earthly Jerusalem is Hagar and Ishmael, cast out of the inheritance:

    "For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and ANSWERETH TO JERUSALEM WHICH NOW IS AND IS IN BONDAGE WITH HER CHILDREN ... cast out the bondwoman and her son; for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman." --Gal 4:25,30


    The New Age is paganism and does not claim to be any part of the Apostolic Church. St. John says the antichrists were part of the true flocks (1 Jn 2:19). Also, St. John's antichrists were proof to him that the last hour had come upon him and his flock (1 Jn 2:18). We are way beyond that last hour.
    John 4:21
    Jesus saith to her, 'Woman, believe me, that there DOTH COME an hour, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father; (Young's Literal)

    That hour was at AD 70. The "last hour" of 1 Jn 2:19-19 cannot be a very LONG time. It is a very SHORT time in human language.


    But you seem to think it means "draw far away." In time, 2000 years is not NEAR but is very FAR. So when Jesus quotes the prophet, saying, "This people DRAW NEAR unto me with their mouth but their hearts are far from me," are we to understand this as saying they DON'T draw near?

    New Testament usage of this term shows that it means the time is come close so as to demand an immediate response:

    "Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold the hour IS AT HAND and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners." - Matt 26:45" Did Jesus mean 2000 or more years into the future???

    "Repent FOR the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." -- Mt. 4:17
    Should they have not bothered to repent for the kingdom of heaven was so far away that it didn't matter? RATHER, the Kingdom of God came during the time of the Ancient Roman Empire according to Daniel's prophecy and came right on time (Mark 1:14-15). When Jesus said "at hand" he meant it.


    Impossible. Peter clarifies, "AND IF IT FIRST BEGIN AT US...", therefore showing that he is in that time. That time had come upon HIM exactly as he says. Peter is not alive today and therefore this passage is resigned to the 1st century.


    He most certainly did -- he said EXACTLY THAT. Jesus, speaking to his apostles assures them, saying:

    Matthew 24:33
    Even so YOU also, when YOU SEE ALL THESE THINGS ...



    LOL. They are. We can cite them as coming from the Law of Moses.


    The last days is 2000 or more years in duration??? Does the phrase just signify "thousands of years"?
     
  5. solo66 man

    solo66 man Well-Known Member

    +2
    Amen! Satan has tried since the beginning to paint us a picture of the God's demise. Here, he is trying to paint a picture of the demise of Christ and His bride.
    Satan loses. :D
     
  6. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Great post.
     
  7. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Jason:
    Yes.

    GW:
    Note that enistemi is in the perfect tense, not the present tense.

    The time then present.

    "Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed 'historical presents,' and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur." (From http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/strongs/1019368585.html )

    Hebrews 9:8, I believe, clearly states in the perfect tense that under the old covenant the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while Hebrews 9:15 and 10:19-22 clearly state in the present tense that the new covenant is manifest, and in the past tense that their hearts have been sprinkled and their bodies washed.

    Doesn't Colossians 2:20 say that Christians were already dead to the Mosaic law (compare Romans 7:4, 6), which Colossians 2:14 says was blotted out on the cross? (compare Ephesians 2:15)

    Doesn't Hebrews 10:10 say "we are (present tense) sanctified (perfect tense)" by the sacrifice of Christ?

    Doesn't Hebrews 9:15-17 say Jesus was presently the mediator of the new testament, which was in force after Jesus died?

    We are still looking forward to our resurrection and eternal life with Christ, first in the millenium, and then in New Jerusalem and the new earth forever (Revelation 20-22).

    I believe it did: "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:2). "If ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law" (Galatians 5:18). "I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God" (Galatians 2:19).

    Again, I believe Matthew 24 was written for whoever will be alive when it is fulfilled, which I believe it still has not been. For in no history do we find that the stars fell from heaven and the sign of the Son of man appeared in heaven, at which all the tribes of the earth mourned; nor does any history describe how all the tribes of the earth saw when the Son of man came in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and sent his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they gathered together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:29-31). None of this has been fulfilled.

    While verses such as Matthew 23:36 say the judgment will come upon "this generation," note that that generation (genea) includes those in a past generation:

    "That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom YE slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation" (Matthew 23:35-36, 2 Chronicles 24:20-22).

    Note that Jesus said "YE" slew Zacharias when addressing "this generation."

    And note that that generation (genea) also includes those in a future generation which will see Jesus' 2nd coming: "YE shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" (Matthew 23:39).

    So genea can refer to the nation of the Jews throughout their entire history. Note that genea is translated as nation in Philippians 2:15, so it can have more than one meaning.

    Again, the old covenant was ready to vanish away by the time Jeremiah 31 was written (Hebrew 8:6-13). As soon as God announced the new covenant through Jeremiah, the old covenant instantly became the old covenant as far as God was concerned: "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13), even though God would not actually annul the old covenant until the crucifixion (Matthew 27:51, Hebrews 7:18).

    Many "Messianic Christians" today are still trying to keep the Mosaic law.

    I believe Jesus and the OT saints had by the time Hebrews was written. I believe that after the resurrection Jesus went and preached to them (1 Peter 3:18-19, 4:6) and led them up into heaven with him (Ephesians 4:8-10).

    I don't believe the parousia will take us into heaven, for note that in John 14:1-3 Jesus simply said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself." He didn't say he would take us into heaven. He said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He says nothing about his making a U-turn back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millenium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

    I believe Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you," to show why he was going, not why he was coming back, and to show that he still has great and eternal plans for us in New Jerusalem, where the Father will dwell with us after the millenium: "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:2-3). "I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it... The throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it" (Revelation 21:22, 22:3).

    I believe if we die before the 2nd coming, our spirits will go to New Jerusalem in heaven until we return to earth with Jesus for the millenium. Note that Jesus told the thief on the cross: "Today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). If we compare the location of the tree of life in Revelation 2:7 (paradise) and Revelation 22:2, 14 (New Jerusalem), we see that paradise is in New Jerusalem.

    When their bodies die, I believe it says the spirits of believers currently go into heaven to be with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8, Philippians 1:21-24, Luke 23:43, Luke 23:46, Acts 7:59).

    The unbelieving dead.

    Again, we worship in Spirit and in truth now; but the verse doesn't say earthly Jerusalem was no longer going to be a holy place, as it especially will be during the millenium (Zechariah 14:19-21).

    Indeed it still it, but it won't be in bondage in the millenium (Isaiah 4:3-4).

    They went out from the true flocks (1 John 2:19).

    Not yet. Note again that the Greek word in 1 John 2:18 for "hour" or "time" (KJV) can refer to any period of time, even of an indefinite length, as in John 4:23, where the same "hour" refers to the present and indefinitely into the future.

    To man, yes. Yet the 2nd coming draws nearer with each passing day; we must "be patient" (James 5:8).

    Again, 1 Peter 4:17 says "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us..." Here there is no "is come" in the Greek, and "must begin" is in the aorist tense, not the present tense. The time of judgment must begin with the church, whenever that time comes, and if it first begin with us the church, whenever it begins...

    Again, they didn't see all those things, which is no doubt why Jesus commanded them to pass on every single thing he taught them to those they preached to (Matthew 28:20).

    Please show how each ordinance of Ezekiel 40-48 comes from the Mosaic law.

    It can in God's time, for to him a thousand years are as one day (2 Peter 3:8).
     
  8. celtic_crusader

    celtic_crusader Crusading Against Jihad

    282
    +0
    I always saw those scriptures in 2 thes ch 2 like this.

    the second coming of christ wont come until these things are fullfilled.

    there will be a great falling away of the roman empire (spoken of in daniel by the statue before the 10 fragmented toes)

    then (after the falling away) then shall apear the man of sin which will sit in the temple of god saying he is god.

    this is the rise of the holy roman emporor and the vatican temple which happened soon after the great falling away of Rome.

    then it says that this man will decieve the whole world with lieing signs and wonders. (ie virgins in the sky)

    well the world has been under this deception since the great fall of rome and this is the apostate church.

    those that believe in the man of sin and follow him will be decieved by the lie because they have no love for the truth.

    all these things must be fullfilled before christ returns , Paul was telling the thesalonians.

    jesus will expose and consume this at his return by the power of his true word.

    I believe that we are very much in the apostate era as both jesus and the apostles said it would happen soon after they have gone and it did.

    we today have so many fragmented churchs that will argue the bible from 3 diffrent sides and never agree that the book says the same thing.

    I would definatly say that christians today do not have the truth and in fact are so far from the truth that it is scary.

    theres my 2 cents worth :D

    celtic.
     
  9. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Is rendered "time present in which ARE offered which ARE not able, in regard to conscience, to make perfect himwho IS serving"

    You are trying to change the the text here because it does not fit your views. The writer clearly pits those things over and against "Christ being come a high priest of good things TO COME. This all fits perfectly with Paul's teaching that the saints were not yet saved, redeemed and adopted as sons (Heb 9:28; Romans 8:23-25; Eph 1:13-14; Gal 4:1-5:5) and that the Law of Moses was still a living code being practiced in the Nation and entangling the Church (Gal 4:1-5:5). Therefore the "good things to come" in Heb 9:11 is the same "good things to come" in Heb 10:1 -- the Law practices were still in action among many in the Church and in the Nation of Israel and those things were to be understood as shadows of the post-AD 70 era wherein the Law of Moses System was gone forever (the removal of which they were still awaiting in Heb 8:13; 2 Cor 3:6-12 and Gal 4:24-25). The good things to come was that time which was beyond the Law Practice (AD 70).


    Hebrews 9:11
    But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come

    Hebrews 10:1
    For the law having a shadow of the good things to come

    Colossians 2:16-17
    food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--things which are a mere shadow of what is to come


    So the "good things" are the things after the practice of the Law was removed, which had not happened until AD 70. The Galatians had gone right back under the Law of Moses, nullifying Paul's work (Gal 4:1-5:5), which means the Law of Moses was still present. One cannot go back into something that did not exist.


    The Old Covenant was still present in the Nation and Christians were entangled in it (Heb 8:13; 2 Cor 3:6-12; Gal 4:24-25; Gal 4:1-5:5). Therefore when Hebrews 10:9 says he "removes the first so that he may establish the second" we know that neither the first had yet been removed (Heb 8:13; Gal 4:24-25; 2 Cor 3:6-12) nor had the second been fully established. AD 30-AD 70 was the transition period under which they were in a process of coming out from underneath the Law. Converts to Christ were being circumcised and asked to keep the Law of Moses at least up until the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. That council only released the gentiles from the practice Law of Moses and Paul was present at the council.

    The resurrection of the saint was to occur once the Law was removed (1 Cor 15:55-56).

    Those statements were all conditional. The early Christians came out and then went right back into the Law of Moses (Gal 4:1-5:5).


    Grammatically and contextually impossible. The "YOU" being spoken to in Matthew 24 never changes. The "YOU" is the apostles to whom Jesus is speaking in Matthew 24:2,4,6 9,15,20,23,25,26,33,34

    In Matthew 24:33 the "YOU" is still the apostles and the "YOU" in Matthew 24:34 is still the apostles.


    Matthew 24:33-34
    So, YOU too [the apostles], when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say TO YOU [that] this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.


    If you are not convinced that we should honor the literal and grammatical interpretation of the passage, I would point out to you that we know beyond any shadow of a doubt that Matthew 24:9-13 is the apostles -- for the passage is the same exact statement as Jesus gave the apostles in Matt 10:16-23 (cf. also to Matt 23:34-36 which was for THEIR GENERATION (23:36) ).

    It is easy to prove that the "YOU" in Matthew 24:15-20 is ALSO the apostles because Luke's account of the same exodus out of Jerusalem and Judaea in Luke 21:20-23 is assigned by every scholar to the period of AD 66-70. They are exactly parallel passages.

    Finally, Jesus emphasizes the "YOU" being the apostles in Matt 24:25. This "YOU" cannot be anyone other than the ones to whom he is speaking. AND, Jesus made this Matthew 24:25 elsewhere to the apostles about things THEY would experience (compare to John 14:29; John 13:19; and John 16:4).


    Wrong Zechariah. Christ was talking about a Zechariah son of Barachias whom his contemporaries slew.

    Clearly, Jesus is still addressing the same "YOU" who had been preventing Jesus from gathering the children unto himself -- his contemporary enemies as seen in Luke 19:37-48.


    Genea does not mean the whole nation of Jews throughout human history (there is another word for that (strong's #1081). Also, such a definition as you have proposed would require the jews to undergo total annihilation in Matt 24:34, for once those things had happened then the whole nation of jews would pass away. Such a racist definition ALSO maligns all jews of all times (Matt 11:16; Matt 12:39, and many others).

    This generation is used nearly 20 times in the N.T. and ALWAYS means the generation of Christ's contemporaries. As Hank Hanegraaff has also pointed out:

    Scholars all know that when Jesus said "THIS GENERATION shall not pass until these things be fulfilled he meant his own generation:

    "GENEA AND WHAT THE SCHOLARS SAY"
    http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/2000/4/004genea.html




    Most certainly untrue. Almost 1/2 of the Mosaic Law consists in Temple practices. Also, the 12 tribes are gone with no lineages to ever verify any human being back to bible times.


    Only Jesus had. The apostles would not be with Christ in Heaven until he returned to get them (John 14:1-3). Daniel does not enter his inheritance until the last days (Dan 12:13). David had not ascended as of Acts 2:34. Hades, the O.T. dwelling place of the dead until the end of the Law Age, does not give up the dead until Revelation 20, which is when the resurrection of the dead out from Hades occurs (1 Cor 15:54-56) --

    "THEN shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; where, O Death, thy sting? where, O HADES, thy victory?' and the sting of the death [is] the sin, and the power of the sin THE LAW;


    The parousia is what receives the saints unto Christ in Heaven. If this has not happened yet then no one is in Heaven yet (John 3:13). John 14:1 is the Father's House where Jesus went to prepare a dwelling for the saints. This place where Jesus said he was going is the same place spoken of in Jn 8:21-24, Jn 7:33-36; and John 13:33-36 -- HEAVEN.


    He sure does. The place Jesus said he was going to in John 14:1-3 is the same place as Jn 8:21-24, Jn 7:33-36; and John 13:33-36 -- HEAVEN. He says to Peter:


    John 13:36, 14:1-4
    Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered, "Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but YOU WILL FOLLOW LATER... In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. And whither I go ye know"

    [/color]


    Jesus went to Hades that day (Acts 2:27,31) and stayed there for 3 days. Hades is not destroyed until Rev 20 and only once the Law of Moses is removed (1 Cor 15:55-56).


    2 Cor 5:1-8 is a resurrection passage. The believing dead sleep in Jesus until resurrection of the dead in Hades, the place of the dead.

    The Old Testament says not one word about a "millennium," and John 4 does indeed say that earthly Jerusalem was no longer going to be a Holy place of worship of the Father (as opposed to Heavenly Jersualem of Gal 4:24-26 where all true Christians conduct our worship):


    ohn 4:21
    Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.


    You see, we are already in the New Jerusalem as Paul understood that:


    Hebrews 12:22-24
    But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

    Galatians 4:24-26
    Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Hagar. For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    Just as earthly Jerusalem is the city of bondage and is the Old Covenant. Heavenly Jerusalem is free and is the New Covenant to which we have already come and it is our Mother that gave us birth.
     
  10. ex_christian

    ex_christian Member

    133
    +0
    OH FOR THE LOVE OF J*S*S CHR*ST (happy i ditdnt use his name in vain)
    WHY DO YOU POST SUCH LONG MSGS...
    aiiiii me....

    Blessed be,
    ~Ex
     
  11. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Again, Hebrews 9:8-9, I believe, clearly states in the perfect tense that under the old covenant the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, and that the old covenant practices were a figure "for the time then present" (enistemi is in the perfect tense, not the present tense), while Hebrews 9:15 and 10:19-22 clearly state in the present tense that the new covenant is manifest, and in the past tense that their hearts have been sprinkled and their bodies washed.

    Rather, it had already been abolished as far as God was concerned, without condition: "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man" (Ephesians 2:15).

    "If the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:7-13).

    "Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ... Now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter" (Romans 7:4, 6).

    "Before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Galatians 3:23-25).

    Again, I believe Matthew 24 was written for whoever will be alive when it is fulfilled. Jesus didn't prophesy that the apostles themselves would necessarily see the end-time events, which indeed they did not, for in no history do we find that in the time of the Apostles the stars fell from heaven and the sign of the Son of man appeared in heaven, at which all the tribes of the earth mourned; nor does any history describe how all the tribes of the earth saw when the Son of man came in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and sent his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they gathered together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:29-31). None of this has been fulfilled. No doubt this is why Jesus commanded the Apostles to pass on every single thing he taught them to those they preached to (Matthew 28:20).

    Can you quote your source?

    It can. Again, note that genea is translated as nation in Philippians 2:15, so it can have more than one meaning.

    "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matthew 24:34). The generation of believers that lives to see the 2nd coming will only pass physically in that it will become regenerated into spiritual bodies in the resurrection which will occur at the 2nd coming: "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body... Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:44, 50-53). "In the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matthew 19:28).

    How does this keep Orthodox Jews and Messianic Jews today from trying to keep as much of the Mosaic law as they can?

    Note that nothing requires that the parousia take the saints into heaven.

    Again, Jesus said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He says nothing about his making a U-turn back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millenium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

    Peter did, by dying. I believe if we die before the 2nd coming, our spirits go to New Jerusalem in heaven until we return to earth with Jesus for the millenium. Note that Jesus told the thief on the cross: "Today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43). If we compare the location of the tree of life in Revelation 2:7 (paradise) and Revelation 22:2, 14 (New Jerusalem), we see that paradise is in New Jerusalem.

    In Acts 2:31, the Greek word translated "hell" can simply be translated as "grave," as in 1 Corinthians 15:55. Jesus' spirit was not left in a grave like his body was for three days, and it didn't go to hell, but went into the Father's hands upon his death: "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost" (Luke 23:46). In Luke, the same Greek word translated "commend" is translated "commit" (Luke 12:48) and "set before" (Luke 11:6).

    I believe Jesus did not enter Hades until after his resurrection he went there in his spiritual body to preach to the OT saints (1 Peter 3:18-19, 4:6), whom he led up into heaven with him at his ascension (Ephesians 4:8-10).

    First, what about the NT? Revelation 20's thousand years? When did Jesus sit on the throne of David? (Luke 1:32) Does Acts 2:30 say that David's throne is in heaven, or that Christ is yet sitting upon it? Does Mark 11:10 say Jesus sat upon the throne of David? Was the donkey David's throne?

    When were the following passages fulfilled?

    "He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (Revelation 2:26-29).

    "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles" (Zechariah 14:16-18).

    "And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it. And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them. In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians. In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance" (Isaiah 19:21-25).

    "He shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid" (Micah 4:3-4).

    Actually, it doesn't. Earthly Jerusalem will be a holy place during the millenium: "This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts" (Zechariah 14:19-21).
     
  12. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Post trib:

    You are essentially still a dispensationalist -- only not a pretrib one I suppose.

    If you cannot agree with the post tribulation views of Notdeceived.net then there is no way you and I will ever make any progress.

    Notdeceived.net believes:

    *70 Weeks of Daniel were completed at Christ's earthly miistry

    *The Church is true Israel

    * No return to the shadows of Mosaic practice

    * Luke 21:20-23 were the days of vengeance pertaining to 66-70AD


    So, there is no reason to carry this on. You allegorize Matthew 24 entirely out of its original context wherein Jesus is speaking to his apostles.

    You don't understand the workings of the Old Covenant, a fact exibited by your thought that today's Orthodox Jews keep it (not at all true).

    You have misunderstood the apostles teaching that earthly Jerusalem is Hagar who was cast out of inheritance (Gal 4:24-30) and Heavenly Jerusalem is now the reigning city of God (Heb 12:22-24; Gal 4:24-26).

    You don't understand that the Galatians were NOT redeemed and saved but rather had never made it out of being entangled in the Law of Moses for righteousness, keeping them bewitched, out of grace, and not having Christ in them yet. They were still waiting for the hope of righteousness by faith (Gal 5:5) which they had not yet attained.

    There are so many general problems with your dispensationalism that it's simply not worth the time to try to communicate with you on eschatology. I strongly suggest, however, that you spend much time at Notdeceived.net. You will gain much useful post-trib knowledge there that would at least build some bridges for you and I to talk at a later time.

    I'll leave you with a skeptic's challenge to your futurist eschatology. Your eschatology cannot stand against this:

    The Lowdown on God's Showdown
    http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=86


    God bless!
    GW
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Actually, I read its events literally. I believe it is preterism that must allegorize the events it describes.

    Orthodox Jews don't try to keep the Torah as much as possible? Then what do they keep?

    And have you ever heard of the Temple Mount Faithful?

    I am pleased that you would think so.

    Time will tell.
     
  14. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Postrib,

    You read Matthew 24 allegorically, denying that Jesus promised his apostles that THEY would see those things (which he clearly promised them -- compare Matt 10:16-23 with Matt 24:9-13 and Matt 23:31-36). There is no place called Judaea now. You have denied the essential greek grammar which demands that the "YOU" in the chapter are the apostles who were promised by Christ to experience all those things. Since you deny the greek text and grammar then you have restorted to allegorical methods of interpretation.

    Of course Orthodox Jews don't keep the Law of Moses. Read MOSES and his requirements. They do NOT keep the Law of Moses now but have invented their own religion. The Temple Mount Faithful have invented their own religion and substituted it for the one Moses required jews to follow. If you would just read Moses then you would have no confusion on this and make unsupportable claims that any people on our planet observe the Law of Moses.

    Time will not tell...the scriptures tell already. Your eschatology cannot withstand the facts of scripture used in this article:

    The Lowdown on God's Showdown
    http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=86

    As this article proves, if your eschatology is right, then Christ and the apostles made many errors.
     
  15. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Again, note that the Apostles didn't experience all those things, for in no history do we find that in the time of the Apostles the stars fell from heaven and the sign of the Son of man appeared in heaven, at which all the tribes of the earth mourned; nor does any history describe how all the tribes of the earth saw when the Son of man came in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and sent his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they gathered together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:29-31). None of this has been fulfilled. No doubt this is why Jesus commanded the Apostles to pass on every single thing he taught them to those they preached to (Matthew 28:20).

    Both Orthodox Jews and many Messianic Jews are still observing the Mosaic law as much as possible in regard to circumcision, dietary restrictions, Sabbath keeping, etc. The Temple Mount Faithful even hope to reinstate the temple sacrifices exactly according to the Mosaic law.

    You have seen the future?
     
  16. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    They did. Matthew 24:9-13 is exactly parallel to Matthew 10:16-23 and Matt 23:34-36.


    Presuppositional. Matthew 24:9-13 is exactly parallel to Matthew 10:16-23. Therefore the Olivet Discourse did occur in the apostles lifetimes.



    The Law of Moses is not something you "observe as much as possible." I think you are showing a deep lack of understanding of the Mosaic requirements. Read Moses and be assured that no one has observed Moses' requirements since AD 70. What's more God has not honored the Law and prophets either since AD 70.

    Just this year the poltical Israel was attacked on Yom Kippur, showing that Jehovah is no longer honoring Exodus 34:23-24. This also happened in 1967 and back in AD 70 Israel was attacked on Pentecost. This shows that Jehovah is no longer keeping covenant with what you would call National Israel today.
     
  17. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    When did the Apostles witness Matthew 24:29-31, 37-51?

    What do Orthodox Jews and Messianic Jews and Ebionitic Gentiles -- who are still observing the Mosaic law in regard to circumcision, dietary restrictions, Sabbath keeping, etc; and The Temple Mount Faithful who even hope to reinstate the temple sacrifices exactly according to the Mosaic law -- what do they say in reply to your view?

    I believe the Jewish temple will be rebuilt (Revelation 11:1-2), daily sacrifices will be reinstituted (Daniel 9:27, 11:31), a false Messiah will arise to rule Israel (Ezekiel 21:25), the Antichrist will make a 7-year treaty with him (Daniel 9:26-27), in the midst of which 7 years the Antichrist will break the treaty (Daniel 9:27) and sit in the temple and proclaim himself God above all gods (Daniel 11:36-39; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 13:5-8, 18), and so commit "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matthew 24:15; Daniel 11:31, 36).

    Time will tell.
     
  18. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    Postrib,

    Matthew 24:9-13 is exactly parallel to Matthew 10:16-23. Therefore the Olivet Discourse was spoken TO and FOR the apostles lifetimes. The grammar never changes from "YOU" (the apostles) to someone else. Jesus NEVER changes to some far distant future generation. Matthew 24 is TO the apostles and it was FOR the apostles.

    You read the chapter allegorically, ignoring the plain greek text. If Matthew 24:9-13/10:16-23 came to pass as jesus said then we can expect that the rest of the promises he made to the apostles also came to pass. Don't read it allegorically. Don't make the chapter a mere symbol of some future generation that Jesus clearly does not intend by use of his plain language.
     
  19. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    "Ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake" (Matthew 24:9). I don't believe the worldwide persecution of all Christians -- in all nations -- has yet begun.

    Again, when did the Apostles witness Matthew 24:29-31, 37-51?

    I don't believe Matthew 24 has been fulfilled. Again, this is no doubt why Jesus commanded the Apostles to pass on every single thing he taught them to those they preached to (Matthew 28:20).

    I think it is preterism that must allegorize most of the chapter in order to get around the lack of its historical fulfillment.

    I don't believe it is a mere symbol but a foretelling of literal events that have yet to transpire. It's possible some may hold onto preterism precisely in order not to have to accept that all the horrors that are written must still come -- indeed even upon this present generation.
     
  20. GW

    GW Veteran

    +59
    Christian
    If true, then Jesus Christ is a liar; for he clearly promised his apostles to their faces that they would be hated of all nations for his name's sake. Matt 10:16-23 which is the parallel passage makes the same promise this way:


    "ALL MEN will hate you [the apostles] because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved" (Matt 10:22)

    "you [the apostles] will be hated by all nations because of me...but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." (Matt 24:9,13)


    So if you declare that all men did not hate the apostles then Jesus Christ was clearly a false prophet, for he promised them that it would happen. If you say that none of them made it unto the end then, again, Jesus is a false prophet.

    We know for SURE that the gospel was preached by them to all nations (Col 1:23; 1:5-6; Rom 10:17-18; 1 Tim 3:16). They were promised by Jesus Christ that they would witness the preaching of the gospel to all nations, even starting at Jerusalem (Luke 24:46-49). Paul, also, was promised that he would accomplish the task of taking the gospel to the ends of the earth (Acts 13:46-47). So we know that they fulfilled Matt 24:9-14 (all) and were indeed hated by all the nations.


    They were promsed they would see it in their generation (Matthew 24:33-34). If they did not then Jesus Christ erred.


    In their generation. The "YOU" in verse 24:42,44 is the same "YOU" as Matt 24:25 -- the apostles.

    Also, according to Luke 17:22-37, the apostles witnessed it at the time they were commanded to come directly from their rooftops and flee Judaea (compare Luke 17:30 to Matthew 24: 16-18 and to Luke 21:20-21). There is no Judaea today, and the exodus out of Jerusalem and countryside in AD 66-67 is documented history by Eusebius, Epiphanius, and, indirectly, Josephus too.


    Luke 24:46-48 ensures that his apostles would be the agents to carry out the preaching of the gospel to all nations as also Acts 13:46-48 was promised to Paul. And, Matthew 28:20 ensures that Jesus would accompany them all the way to the end of the age. If they did not make it to the end (see also Matt 10:22) and these things did not happen within the apostles' lifetimes (Matt 24:33-34; Matt 10:22-23), then Jesus Christ was a false prophet.


    That would be an almost comical statement if it weren't so grave an indictment against the inerrancy of scripture and against the trustworthiness of Christ and the apostles on matters of doctrine. If Christ did NOT fulfill those promises that he so clearly made to his living breathing apostles, and did not do so within their generation, then He simply is not the Son of God and you should begin looking for another faith.


    You have created an entire allegory out of Matthew 24, ignoring the greek grammar at every turn and the original audience to whom Christ made the promises.

    Also, it must be stated that no such horrors of Matthew 24 CAN come upon this generation (and I don't mean "THAT future generation"), because Matthew 24's prophecy was obligated and sealed by the Word of God itself to come to pass in the generation to whom Christ was speaking. All other interpretations of the passage are allegorical.
     
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