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The Fall of The Church

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by b_o_b, Mar 30, 2002.

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  1. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

    I believe we are definitely in the "falling away" era. The Church of Christ will never fall, but many will fall away. I have seen this in my own family. A couple of generations back, all of my relatives were Christians and they lived good Christian lives. But now only a few of us are Christian, and none of us live the Godly lives our ancestors did. We are more caught up in the things of this world.
  2. GW

    GW Veteran

    Hi Auntie, and God bless.

    I don't think a couple of generations of your family is a large enough sample to help you or anyone else grasp the well-being of the Church and its growth patterns. Jesus started with just 12 men. Israel was a tiny plot of land that had any knowledge of Jehovah whatsoever. Certainly we're doing a lot better than back then, wouldn't you say? Christianity has been a global revolution that is the world's leading religion and shows no sign of going away. So, remember, you're on a winning team here!

    Finally, if there has been a decline in the influence of Christianity in America in the 20th century it is due, IMHO, to the full-scale retreat and withdrawal of evangelcals from society. Evangelicals fell prey to countless Hal Lindsey-styled endtimes hysterias and end-of-the-world heresies from 1830 to 2000. One after another hit the evangelicals, forcing them to abandon America's goverment, educational institutions, politics, entertainment, and business arenas. Well, America has been hurt by that, but she will be restored as the Church returns back off the sidelines and gets back into the ballgame to win and show her stuff. The land belongs to the Church by divine right -- only she can give it up and only she can take it back. The choice is hers.

    God bless!
  3. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    I believe Matthew 24 was written for whoever will be alive when it is fulfilled.

    Matthew 24 hasn't been fulfilled yet. Note again that Jesus commanded the Apostles to pass on every single thing he taught them to those they preached to (Matthew 28:20).

    Some Israelis today prefer to call the West Bank, "Samaria and Judea."

    My faith has not been overthrown by the false doctrine of full preterism: "Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some" (2 Timothy 2:18).

    Full preterism attempts to overthrow our hope to be resurrected at Christ's 2nd coming: "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming... Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 50-53).

    "In the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage" (Matthew 22:30).

    "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection" (Luke 20:36).

    The resurrection has not happened yet. We are still in mortal bodies. We still marry and we still die.

    "Continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel" (Colossians 1:23).

    "The hope and resurrection of the dead" (Acts 23:6).

    "Hope toward God... that there shall be a resurrection of the dead" (Acts 24:15).

    "We are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it" (Romans 8:24-25).

    "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable" (1 Corinthians 15:19).

    "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).

    "It doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure" (1 John 3:2-3).

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead... Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:3, 13).

    When do postmillenialists say Revelation 20:7-10 was or will be fulfilled?

    When did or will the separation of the wheat and the tares take place? (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43)

    Postmillenialism teaches "the great triumph of Christ's Church over all the earth before the creedal coming of Christ." But doesn't the Bible teach the exact opposite of this?

    In the coming tribulation, the Antichrist will gain control of the entire earth and overcome the church: "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" (Revelation 13:7); at that time I believe we will cry out: "We have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen" (Isaiah 26:18); "And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished" (Daniel 12:7).

    Only at the 2nd coming (Revelation 19), "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), will Christ gain the victory for us: "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Matthew 24:30). "I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come. And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me. And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth" (Isaiah 63:3-6). "The LORD of hosts hath purposed it, to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth" (Isaiah 23:9).

    All glory to God: "I will not give my glory unto another" (Isaiah 48:11). "Thine, O LORD is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory" (1 Chronicles 29:11). "Deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen" (Matthew 6:13).
  4. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

    Pastor N.B. here:
    What do you do with Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15? (K.J.)
    Sure there is an AntiChrist & Her 'Daughters'! But according to the 'first' Virgin Bride, the second one also will go the way of Israel of old. The Virgin doctrines without the Master can not save her! Or do you believe that God will go contrary to His Word and do a new thing?
    Pastor N.B.

    PS: By the way, 1 Peter 4:17 & Lev. 16:14's 'seven spots' (times from 27-34AD) apply to this Matt 25 Virgin denomination! Their 'Midnight' Cry was their [Falling Away]! (who left whom?) And their [Loud Cry] slaughter came in 70 A.D. (try Eze. 9) Christ & Pail stated that this [time] around it will be 'cut short in Rightousness'!
  5. GW

    GW Veteran

    GW SAID: "...Jesus clearly promised his apostles to their faces that they would be hated of all nations for His name's sake..."

    I believe Matthew 24 was written for whoever will be alive when it is fulfilled.

    But Jesus taught that Matthew 24 was written for the apostles to whom he was speaking. This is where you and Jesus teach different things. He teaches one thing and you teach another. Matt 10:16-23 is the parallel passage to Matthew 24:9,13 and shows that His apostles were the subject of the Olivet:

    "ALL MEN will hate you [the apostles] because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved" (Matt 10:22)

    "you [the apostles] will be hated by all nations because of me...but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." (Matt 24:9,13)

    So I ask you: did Matthew 10:22 and Matthew 24:9,13 come to pass to the apostles exactly as Jesus promised them? What say ye? If you declare that all men did not hate the apostles then Jesus Christ was clearly a false prophet, for he promised them that it would happen. If you say that none of them made it unto the end then, again, Jesus is a false prophet. I affirm in the positive that the apostles are indeed the subject of Matthew 10:22/24:9,13 and, thus, the Olivet discourse is past in fulfillment.

    GW SAID: " ...The "YOU" in verse 24:42,44 is the same "YOU" as Matt 24:25 -- the apostles..."

    Matthew 24 hasn't been fulfilled yet. Note again that Jesus commanded the Apostles to pass on every single thing he taught them to those they preached to (Matthew 28:20).

    You have not answered the question here, but merely asserted something you have not proven, saying, "Matthew 24 hasn't been fulfilled yet." So I will state again that The "YOU" in verse 24:33,42,44 is the same "YOU" as Matt 24:25 -- the apostles..." Do you deny that the "YOU" in Matthew 24:25 is the apostles? Yes or no? If it is the apostles as I say then the "YOU" in Matthew 24:33,34,42 and 44 is also the apostles. This means Matthew 24 was either (1) fulfilled in their generation or (2) Jesus Christ is a false prophet for promising his apostles that they would live through the endtimes trials (when it never happened according to you). Therefore you are left with a false prophet as your Savior. And if he prophesied and taught Matthew 24 falsely then how sure can you be about what He taught on salvation and what does all this tell us about the deity of Christ?

    Some Israelis today prefer to call the West Bank, Samaria and Judea.

    Some southerners still believe the South won the Civil War. Jesus would have said "the West Bank" if he meant the West Bank. God foretold Cyrus the Great centuries before he ever lived, and called him by name. Christ's mention of Judaea places the prophecy in the time of Judaea -- if one is a literalist. Of course, you are an allegorist on the entire Olivet Discourse, so it does not surprise me that you think the West Bank is "Judaea."

    My faith has not been overthrown by the...doctrine of full preterism

    As it could not be since you have created your own private faith and interpretation on the doctrine of eschatology. Problem is, you and Jesus teach entirely differently concerning the Olivet Discourse. You have your own faith concerning the Olivet Discourse and Jesus Christ has his teaching -- the two do not match at all. I will stick with Christ's teaching on the Olivet and continue to assert that you are not teaching what the bible teaches. Your teaching on Matthew 24 makes Jesus Christ a false prophet by absolute logical necessity.

    Concerning your comments on resurrection of the dead:

    (#1) Paul taught the resurrection was about to happen and he expected to live unto that event:

    Acts 24:15
    there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

    1 Thessalonians 4:15
    for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep

    Was the Apostle Paul also wrong here too? He clearly expected that his generation would be alive until the resurrection and said it was "ABOUT TO" happen. Was this also an error? What else did Paul err on? As you also quoted, Paul did not think his generation was to die before the resurrection of the dead:

    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    In both 1 Cor 15:51-52 and 1 Thess 4:15-17 Paul includes himself to be among the living at the time the resurrection would take place and not be among the dead. In your view Paul must be in error here.

    (#2) As for your quotes of Matthew 22 and Luke 20...the subject of the passage is THE DEAD. The sadducees are asking about and disputing over the topic of the dead and their state in the afterlife. You are attempting to insert "the living" in the doctrine of the "resurrection of THE DEAD.

    When do postmillenialists say Revelation 20:7-10 was or will be fulfilled?

    Not sure I can speak for postmillennialist partial preterists, but I generally believe they think that will happen in at least 40,000 years after Christ. Preterists like myself acknowledge that it happened in the 1st century.

    When did or will the separation of the wheat and the tares take place? (Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43)

    It happened at AD 66-70 at the end of the Old Mosaic Age, the age they were in when Jesus spoke those words. When Jesus taught of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple they knew that the event would mark the end of some key age (Matt 24:1-3). We recognize that it was the end of the age of Mosaic worship for Israel. Jesus and his apostles were all born and worshipped God according to the customs of Moses and continued to honor Moses until AD 66-70 when the great tribulation happened.

  6. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    Jesus didn't prophesy that the apostles themselves would necessarily see the end-time events, which indeed they did not, for in no history do we find that in the time of the apostles the stars fell from heaven and the sign of the Son of man appeared in heaven, at which all the tribes of the earth mourned; nor does any history describe how all the tribes of the earth saw when the Son of man came in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and sent his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they gathered together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:29-31). None of this has been fulfilled. No doubt this is why Jesus commanded the apostles to pass on every single thing he taught them to those they preached to (Matthew 28:20).

    I believe there will be an end-time persecution of all Christians in all nations (Matthew 24:9; Revelation 13:7-10), which will be like what the early church suffered (Matthew 10:22). I don't believe Matthew 24 and Revelation 13 have yet been fulfilled; we do not find them described in any history.

    "There shall be a resurrection of the dead" (Acts 24:15). In the Greek, "shall be" is "mello" (Strong's #3195), which Strong's Greek Dictionary defines first as "to intend," which is how it is translated in Acts 5:35. There indeed shall be a resurrection of the dead, for God intends for there to be one. I believe it has not yet occurred; we do not find it described in any history.

    Even if Paul at one time expected the rapture/resurrection in his lifetime (contrast 2 Timothy 4:6), I believe that in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 he is referring to the same "coming" of Jesus and the same "gathering together" of the saints and the same "trumpet" and the same "clouds" as Matthew 24:29-31. I don't believe 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4, 8 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 and Matthew 24:29-31 have been fulfilled yet; we do not find them described in any history.
  7. GW

    GW Veteran

    He did. The "YOU" in Matthew 24:25 is the apostles to whom he is speaking. The "YOU" in Matthew 24:4 is the apostles to whom he is speaking. The "YOU" in Matthew 24:33-34 is the apostles to whom he is speaking.

    Jesus clearly states, line by line and promise after promise, that the apostles would live through those events and see all those things in their generation. You cannot get around this. The text says what it says. Every event described in Matthew 24 was promised to come to pass for Christ's apostles. If those prophecies failed (as you believe), then Jesus failed and Christianity is a religious system based upon a mere man.

    And, as Jesus promised his apostles, they would not even finish doing so before the second coming:

    Matthew 10:16-18, 21-23
    "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves. But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues; and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles...Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. You will be hated by all because of My name, but he that endures to the end will be saved. But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, YOU WILL NOT FINISH GOING THROUGH THE CITIES OF ISRAEL UNTIL THE SON OF MAN COMES!

    Jesus Christ clearly promised his apostles that they would live through the tribulation period and that He would return within their generation. If you are correct about this prophecy not coming to pass then your Faith is in vain and you are dead in your sins.

    The meaning of "Mello" is not just intent brother. It is intent ABOUT to be accomplished as in Acts 5:35 where they are setting up to slay the apostles. The "about to" part of the definition of "MELLO" is the very essence of the word. Mello is when something to be IS ABOUT TO BE. It is a time statement. When Paul says something is ABOUT TO BE then we know he means exactly that:

    1 Thessalonians 3:4
    "for even when we were with you, we said to you beforehand that we are ABOUT TO suffer tribulation, as also it did come to pass and ye have known it;

    See there how the tribulation that Paul promised was ABOUT TO happen did so shortly? Paul points to its occurrence as proof of his own trustworthiness as a prophet! Your claim that the resurrection didn't happen, when Paul clearly promised them it was about to happen, is to ruin Paul's entire credibility.

    Then Paul is also a false prophet. For Paul said the Thessalonians' persecution would be relieved by the event of the second coming of Christ (2 Thess 1:6-7)! Did this promise of Paul fail them? Paul even prays they would be preserved BODY, soul and spirit unto that time (1 Thess 5:23). Did Paul's prayer fail too? Are there any of the Thessalonians hanging around in their bodies today? I think not. Paul's a false teacher. Their enemies were going to be overtaken while the Thessalonians would not be (1 Thess 5:3-4). Furthermore, speaking to the Corinthians, Paul boldly taught:

    "the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Cor 1:6-8)

    Did Jesus fail to deliver on Paul's promise? They clearly all have been dead for 19 centuries now but were eagerly awaiting His return because the apostles taught they would be confirmed unto the very end!
    Jesus clearly is not the Son of God if your assertions are true about his failure to return when He taught and as they all believed and taught and prophesied.

    I look forward to your replies.
  8. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    I believe it is also for everyone who reads Matthew 24.

    And also for everyone who reads Matthew 24.

    I believe it's for readers who will actually see the events of Matthew 24 fulfilled. Note that you skipped Matthew 24:29-31. Where is the "you" there and how did the apostles (or anyone since their time) experience the events of Matthew 24:29-31?


    Note that he didn't.

    In the parable of the fig tree, I believe Jesus was saying that the generation that saw the re-establishment of the nation of physical Israel (the rebudding of the fig tree) would see the tribulation and 2nd coming (Matthew 24:32-34). The nation of physical Israel was re-established in 1948 and I believe a generation is 70 years, for Psalm 90:10 speaks of how long it takes for a generation to pass away, which is exactly what Jesus refers to.

    Or preterism is, and future events will reveal its false interpretation of prophecy.

    They didn't, we haven't, and he hasn't. The prophecy will be fulfilled because he will come again before all the cities of Israel have been gone over by his disciples.

    I thank God that my faith has not been overthrown by preterism (2 Timothy 2:18).

    That is its first definition in Strong's Hebrew Dictionary.

    How many years (or centuries, or millenia) can transpire between an event foretold using "mello" and its coming to pass? (e.g. Acts 26:22-23, Romans 5:14, Hebrews 11:8, 2 Timothy 4:1, Matthew 3:7, Matthew 16:27, Acts 23:3, Acts 24:15)

    At the same time that the resurrection happens, all those who are still alive and in Christ will be changed in the twinkling of an eye into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51-53). This didn't happen to Paul or to the apostles or to anyone since their time.

    I believe "the 1st resurrection" (Revelation 20:6), that is, the resurrection and changing of all "they that are Christ's" (1 Corinthians 15:23) into their immortal bodies, will occur at a single point in time, at the "last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:52), at the 2nd coming of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:23, Revelation 19:11-20:6), and it will include those "beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands" (Revelation 20:4), which refers back to the events of Revelation 13.

    Because neither Revelation 13 nor Revelation 19, that is, neither the tribulation nor the 2nd coming, have happened yet, neither can the resurrection have happened yet.

    Or preterism has misinterpreted his prophecies.

    I believe the Thessalonians -- even though dead and in heaven -- will be at rest at the 2nd coming.

    No, for the 2nd coming (Revelation 19) hasn't happened yet.

    Even in death our bodies are preserved in some spiritual sense, for it says: "Some of you shall they cause to be put to death... But there shall not an hair of your head perish" (Luke 21:16, 18).

    Or preterism is false.

    Who's "they" in verse 3? And that day won't overtake the Thessalonians as a thief.

    "When they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them" (1 Thessalonians 5:3).

    I believe this refers to the destruction that will come upon the unsaved at the end of the tribulation and at the 2nd coming.

    At the death of the two witnesses, at the end of the 42-month reign of the Antichrist, I believe the unsaved will rejoice and make merry and give gifts to one another (Revelation 11:10), thinking that now all is peace and safety, that now the Antichrist can rule unimpeded without any more plagues coming on the earth (Revelation 11:6). But little will they know that sudden destruction is about to come upon them with the 7 vials of God's wrath and Jesus' coming:

    "Thy wrath is come.. that thou shouldest... destroy them which destroy the earth" (Revelation 11:18).

    "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" (2 Thessalonians 1:9-10).

    "Then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

    Those who died faithful among the Corinthians will be blameless at the 2nd coming.

    No. The 2nd coming (Revelation 1:7) hasn't happened yet.

    Or preterism is false.
  9. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

    I 'spiritually' love you Auntie, great open truth. And 'i' understand why your profile information is empty. But my wonderment [is not] the Christian ladies of this Christian forum. Gods concern is where are the 'professed' Christian men ( :scratch:) who LOVE their Master? Silent as the dead of Eze. 37.

    Now: what i am talking about, is [their] empty profiles! And most perhaps are like (bottom line) 'undercover' agents sent from God to quack, quack, & more quack at best! Nameless, secret, & most likely an alias on top of that? wow! Some testimony for the Master! NEVER do we see the Master send a person as such! Saul is Paul! Matt., Mark, Luke, John & on & on, are [open & seen testimony] with a forrunner called John the Baptist, also 'seen in publick!'

    And about [this] shaking? Your post is an absolute truth. Yet [this] Falling Away or Shaking will be done from the OTHER END! From the Top on down! Twice in history with NO NEW THING! The First time was at the First coming of the Master, (to His own) and the Second time is NOW! (just before the Master's SECOND COMING to His own)

    This falling AWAY is professed Christian (where are the REAL men) denominations LEAVING Christ! Read Isa. 5:3! Then read from verse 1-5. And again check Gen. 4:7.

    This can easily be understood by a study of Christ's life on earth. He sent the deciples to the LOST SHEEP of the House of Israel in 'commandment'. Matt. 10:5-6. [Who left whom] during these 'seven times'? (From 27-34AD)

    So it will be again now. Read Rev. 18:4. Can it be questioned that Christ's New Jewish Offshoot Christian Denomination, (for that is who came OUT as the nucleus
    of furture leadership--even Paul) would hold dual yoked membership with, and supporting these ones in tithes & offerings that 'rejected & crucified the Master'?? And today?? Read Heb. 6:6.

    Got to run! Four in the morning is an early work day for me! Look to meet you in the Canaan Home soon :) ,
    In the Master's quickly finished work,
    Pastor N.B.

    PS: Ok you 'spiritual men', tell me of my poor grammer, spelling and Peter's complaint that Paul's words are hard to be understood! Christian 'm'en, huh? :confused: Your message really has a 'spiritual' tone? try Eph. 6:12
  10. GW

    GW Veteran

    It CANNOT be that everyone who reads Matthew 24 lives through those events. There is only ONE endtimes generation, and it isn't you. It was the apostles' generation who were promised they would live through those events. Matthew 10:16-23 is for the apostles is is not? It is. Therefore so is the parallel passage in Matthew 24:9-13 speaking of the apostles. You are making Matthew 24 an allegory by making it a failed prophecy to the apostles to whom Jesus promised those things -- your hope is that your ALLEGORICAL reading of the passage might yet come to pass for you or sometime in the future. It will not because it already happened to them and in their generation just as Jesus promised.

    He specifically promised his apostles they would live to see his return in their generation (Matthew 23:36; 24:33-34), before their preaching to the nation was fulfilled (Matt 10:16-23), and before the last apostle had died (John 21:21-22; Matthew 16:27-28).

    You flat out denied that Jesus promised his apostles that they would see those events come to pass? How is that even possible? Read here:

    Jesus, speaking to his apostles, prophesied to them saying:

    Matthew 24:2
    verily I say unto YOU, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    Matthew 24:3-4
    disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And Jesus answered and said UNTO THEM, Take heed that no man deceive YOU.

    Matthew 24:6
    And YOU shall hear of wars and rumours of wars:

    Matthew 24:9
    Then shall they deliver YOU up to be afflicted (this means the apostles as proven by Matt 10:17)

    Matthew 24:13
    But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (this means the apostles as proven by Matthew 10:22-23).

    Matthew 24:15
    When YOU therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet...Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains (this means the time of the Fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 in Luke 21:20-23).

    Matthew 24:33-34
    So likewise YOU, when YOU SHALL SEE ALL THESE THINGS, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto YOU This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    More allegorical renderings.

    Next, you say that Matthew 24:25 is spoken to EVERYBODY who would ever read the passage (along with all the other "YOU" mentions in the Matt 24 passage). Will John Calvin, according to Matthew 24:15-18, see the abomination and flee Jerusalem? Was the prophecy to him? Of course not. Did Abraham Lincoln read Matthew 24:15-18 and will he then flee Jerusalem? Was the prophecy to him? No. Did C.I. Scofield see the armies surround Jerusalem and flee Jerusalem? Was it to him? Again, no. Ironically, the passage did come true literally in 66-67 AD for those to whom Christ made the promises and it is part of the historical record.

    Your answer that Matthew 24:25 applies to all who read the passage is simply untenable. Compare Matt 24:25 to John 14:29, John 13:19 and John 16:4 and you will see that Jesus only spoke that line to warn his apostles of what THEY were certain to face. There is only one single last days generation; the Holy inspired apostles said it was THEIR generation (James 5:3; Heb 1:1-2; 1 Peter 1:20; Acts 2:15-17; 1 Cor 10:11).

    Matthew 10:1-23 is specifically to his chosen apostles. If Jesus didn't return before they all died then Jesus is a false prophet, and verifiably so.

    Obviously, the dead are in Heaven now -- so it is clear that they were raised out of Hades at the end of the Law Age as Paul predicted:

    1 Cor 15:55-56
    "and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up in victory. where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O HADES is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW

    Paul preaches here that the dead were raised when the Law of Moses was fully destroyed. The events prophesied by Christ concerning the Temple and Jerusalem already happened, releasing the O.T. Dead out of Hades/Sheol (see also Rev 20:12-15). If Christ has not returned then none of the dead have yet escaped out of Hades (1 Cor 15:56; Rev 20:12-15) and the Catholics are right that it is still active as "Purgatorio" (the Latin for Hades). You are Roman Catholic on that issue, whether you were aware of it or not. The Hades (Latin: "Purgatorio") of 1 Cor 15:55-56 is still active if one is a futurist (see Rev 20:12-15).

    Jesus Christ was the First Resurrection (1 Cor 15:20; Rev 1:5; Col 1:18; Acts 26:23)

    So they have not had their promised rest and are still suffering their 1st century persecution? The Thessalonians were not going to get rest from their persecutors until Christ came to give tribulation to them! This means the Thessalonian saints are still suffering and not at rest from their persecution! You have to again admit that Paul prophesied falsely.

    They are not at rest from their persecutors if Christ didn't return. Paul prophesied that Christ's return would relieve them of their sufferings at the hands of their persecutors. You say it did not happen, and therefore Paul is a false prophet (and we are therefore dead in our sins).

    You are teaching that people don't have their bodies go back to dust? Paul says "BODY, SOUL, AND SPIRIT," showing that he does not mean a "spiritual sense" as you claim, for he lists that option in the same sentence. I assure you that the Thessalonians' bodies are all dust now. Their molecules have become crops, and other living animals, and part of the water cycle and fossil fuel for our tractors. All living things today on earth are blessed because they are dead and have gone back to dust and molecules that nourish us and are part of all living things today.

    I don't want to start sounding offensive, but you are violating the most basic rules of grammar and syntax. The "YOU/US" in 1 Thess 5:1-11 is the Thessalonians. You are consistently demonstrating a serious violation of rules of syntax and grammar -- at every turn you are creating allegorical meanings.

    Next, what comfort could Paul's words have been to them if the "YOU" spoke of some far distant generation of people? Paul closes out his point saying: "THEREFORE COMFORT YOURSELVES TOGETHER." If Paul is suggesting that the relief for these desperately persecuted Thessalonians was to come from an event thousands of years into the future he is a cruel man. Why did he mislead them? Paul would have to be a cold and cruel mocker of the Thessalonians and of the seriousness of their persecution. Even more, Paul MUST be a cruel man if your view is correct, for he leads them to believe it is for their lifetimes to bring their relief and gives no indication anywhere of any delay. Paul preached that his 1st century flocks would remain alive unto the Day of Christ (Phil 1:6,10; 1 Cor 1:7-8; Heb 10:25,37). The Thessalonians were misled to believe that they would remain alive until the second coming (1 Thess 4:15-17) -- that is, misled if futurist postponement theories are to be believed.

    Finally, the "THEY" in 1 Thess 5:3 is the people of 1 Thess 2:14 and 2 Thess 1:5-8.

    After this many demonstrations on your part that you aren't following the most BASIC rules of grammar I don't know that we can continue to dialogue. If we can't agree on rules of grammar then we are not able to get anywhere. How can any two people communicate if there aren't objective, accepted rules of grammar and syntax? You are acting as if there is another set of grammatical rules to be followed. You have an ALLEGORICAL method you are using at every turn to usurp the plain, straightforward, literal text.

    We are to let the scriptures teach us and inform our views (and not the other way around). You have an allegorical interpretation of the Olivet, Jesus, and Paul that simply would have been foreign to them or their original audience.
  11. Yauming

    Yauming Member

    Can't you accept that there might be a possible different interpretation to the Bible, GW?

    I might check Revelation 1:7 out.

    "Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen."

    Geez, (sarcastic mode on) your version of the 2nd coming of Jesus must have really been a non-event. No one in the entire world seemed to have remembered it or even bothered to write it down.
  12. GW

    GW Veteran

    Hiya Yauming.

    The apostles and Christ unanimously taught the second coming was to be in their generation before all the apostles had died. Even higher criticism has known this for hundreds of years and has used it successfully to cause countless defections from the Christian faith. The forces that cause Christians to abandon Christ and adopt liberal Christ-denying theologies start with this exact issue -- futurism demands that Christ and the apostles were false prophets. To get a sample of this check these links:

    The Lowdown on God's Showdown

    The Fruit of Futurist Eschatology

    A Faith Fundamentally Flawed

    On to your other points...

    One could easily argue that the salvation of the entire world was a "non-event." How many people even showed up at the Cross? Yet God's people grasped the significance by faith.

    And yet, in contrast to the Cross event which was entirely flying "under the radar" so far as anyone at the time was concerned, the Fall of Jerusalem was arguably greatest disaster in all Antiquity. (And that's not even including the eternal COVENANTAL significance of the event that took place!)

    We know from scripture itself that it was a universal judgement, avenging all the righteous blood ever shed on the earth going all the way back to Able (see: Matthew 23:35-36; Luke 11:29-32; Luke 19:41-44; Mark 13:1-31).

    We know from Luke 21:22 that it was the "Day of the Lord" ("Day of the Lord's Vengeance" is mentioned there, picking up from Isaiah 61:2 -- also compare Luke 21:22 to Jer 46:10). We know that it was Israel's great distress/great tribulation (Luke 21:20-23/Matt 24:15-20 and that is was the coming of God to Israel to avenge the saints and remove the rights to Israel from the unbelieving rulers of the jews and their followers (Matthew 21:40-45). (True Israel accepted with Yahweh was counted through Jesus and his jewish follwers, the remant -- Gal 6:15-16; Phil 3:3; 1 Pet 2:9; Matt 21:43).

    Countless commentaries on Matthew 24 from the ECFs on down to today interpret the chapter as mostly or TOTALLY fulfilled.

    I don't think anyone can argue against the fact that Christ and the apostles knew exactly what they were talking about by prophesying the return of Christ in the glory of Yahweh in their generation. As jews they fully understood the nature of the "Day-of-Yahweh" events and could refer to many in their own O.T. history. And yet AD 66-70 was the GREATEST Day-of-the-Lord event in history, and was obviously the one they all were saying they would live to see (1 Cor 1:7-8; Phil 1:6,10; 1 Thess 5:23; Heb 10:25,37; 1 Cor 5:5, etc) -- they prepared for it a mere 1-2 decades before God's wrath was finally poured out.

    Hope that helps,
  13. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    This thread has veered way off topic and has gotten out of hand.

    Just a reminder to all it is ok to discuss end times views, but it is not ok to make judgments on others.

    Any posts that diliberately disrupt the flow of threads will be removed or edited.
    This thread is now closed until further notice.
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