Jesus says,
"I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore" (Revelation 1:18).
...
Interesting thread.
Wait... didn't you just quote such a supporting scripture above?
"44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
Perhaps Spirit Body and Spiritual Body are somehow different in your view?
There is nothing more left to say on this particular point. I stand by what I have said with Scripture. The Bible says God has a soul. Revelation 6:9 gives us no indication that it is symbolic or allegorical. It is not some kind of outlandish kind of thing to believe in real life like a Lamb that is slain with many eyes upon it. Genesis 2:7 simply says Adam became a living soul (Which would be in harmony to departed souls of the dead like the Richman or a soul like God's soul).
...
. We have in Scripture an example of a spiritual body and it is very much a flesh and bone body. It is not a spirit. Remember, in context, Paul is comparing the current state of being with the resurrection. The spiritual body is the resurrected body. Jesus had a resurrected body which He said was flesh and bone.
Where in scripture can we find that the Body Jesus was resurrected in was His Glorified Body He presently has ?
I submit that it was the self same Body that hung on the cross, and did not have any appreciable difference to His pre cross Body, save the fact it was drained of blood and could not be put to death again. It was not glorified until the ascension.
I submit Jesus is not in that same flesh and bone body today.
Please consider the following:Where in Scripture do you find they are different?
If you're going to claim that Jesus' flesh body is different than His glorified body, you have no basis in Scripture. It would have had to take place after John wrote his epistle and he doesn't say anything about Jesus changing into yet another body. Therefore there's no support for such and idea.
when he appeared to the disciples in the upper room He had already ascended. When He first appeared to Mary He told her not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to the Father. However, when He appeared to the disciples in the upper room He told them to touch Him. Somewhere between the two it would seem that He ascended to the Father.
Please consider the following:
John 7.39. 'But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.'
Here we see that the spirit would be given when Jesus was glorified. During the forty days after his resurrection, the HS was not given. Only after the ascension was the HS given.
John 12.16. 'These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him.'
In the context of this verse Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey and the people cheered. This, again, was only understood by them after his ascension and not during the 40 days.
John 17.24. ' "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world."
Here, Jesus expressly declared that the disciples would 'behold [His] glory' when they were with him where he was. This was not referring anytime on earth, but must be referring to after his ascension.
Acts 1.9. 'And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.'
Lastly, we know that 'cloud' represents the glory of God. It's clear that it was at this moment that Jesus was glorified.
I know of no scripture confirming any trip to heaven by Christ prior to the ascension.
So , if I understand you correctly, you are asserting that, sometime after He came out of the tomb and appeared to Mary, but before he appeared to His apostles, that Christ ascended to heaven and presented Himslef as the firstfruits offering, then returned to earth once that offering was accepted By God.
The writer of Hebrews, writing in the 60's AD, some 30 years after your proposed "ascention & return" claimed that at the time he was writing, Christ was presently in heaven offering himself as the sacrifice for us.
Your view has Him offering Himself the 2nd day after passover, returning, then ascending again and offering himself AGAIN, which the writer of Hebrews explicitly says CAN NOT BE:
Hebrews 9:25-26
"25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.'
Besides, He told Mary not to "Cling to" Him.
John 20:17 NKJ
"Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'
The greek for "Cling" or "Touch" here is "Haptomai" which means:
to fasten one's self to, adhere to, cling to.
This is not a simple finger extended "touching" of Christ being described here as Thomas did, this is Mary seeing the risin Christ and, not surprisingly, CLINGING to Him.
Jesus tells her not to Cling to Him, in effect because Both He and She had important work yet to do. They would have an eternity to cling to eachother, but Christ effectively told her to "let go" at that point because there was yet unfinished business they both needed to attend to.
Christ ascended to the Father once, and it is recorded for us at the beginning of the Book of the Acts of the Apostles.
However, again, if His resurrected body is His gloried body then they were with Him and did see His glory.
Jesus told Mary not to touch Him because He had not ascended to the Father. So, the reason He couldn't be touched was because He had not ascended to the Father.
Later He tells the disciples to touch Him. The logical conclusion is...He ascended to heaven between the two events.
Again, this is sheer speculation
I guess somebody forgot to mention that fact to John:
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2
Why?
What would allow him to be touched after your presupposed ascension and return?
Again, why could He then be touched? What happened that allowed the touching?
Well, Your proposed ascension and return is sheer speculation, so what's your point?
Only you get to speculate?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. John's readers obviously had not seen the resurrected Christ.
Touching isn't the point. The point is He was ascending
Speculation? Did you read the passage you posted. Jesus said, "I am ascending to my Father and your Father." He used a present tense verb. That's what He was doing when He spoke to Mary.
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (Jn. 20:17 KJV)
John had, yet he includes himself in the "we". Are you saying he lied when he said "it has not yet been revealed what we shall be"?
You're telling me it HAD been revealed, and John witnessed it. Which is it?
Inspired Eyewitness Apostle John said it had NOT been revealed, Random 21st century Internet Guy Butch5 says it HAD been revealed.
When faced with deciding which of these two polar opposite claims to accept as truth, my money's on the Apostle. Sorry Random Internet guy.
What's John talking about in that passage? We know that John saw the resurrected Christ. He saw His resurrected body. You've conjectured that Christ is in a different body now, yet haven't given a shred of evidence that would support that idea. It appears to me that you're taking your understanding of that passage and imposing it on the text. If you believe that this passage supports your claim that Jesus is in a different body than He was before the cross, please explain how.
I didn't say anything had been revealed. I simply pointed out that Christ had already ascended. It was you who started talking about things being revealed.
I have scoured as many reputable commentaries on As I could find to find one that agrees with your view of John 20:17 with no luck. Could you point me to any? Of The commentaries I could find that address the "i am ascending", they all agree with my understanding. Does anybody else hold your view or are you alone in possession of this "truth"?Is your money on the Apostle? I ask because when I posted the Apostle's recording of Jesus words to Mary, "I am ascending," you seemed to reject what I posted.
2Corinthians 5:16
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
Just how long do you say "no longer" is?
If you understand what Paul is saying there, please explain.
Simple.
John was an eyewitness to the resurrected Christ, but claims in that passage that He still had not seen Him "as He is" (present tense, post ascension) and at that time believed "as He is" had not yet been revealed to him.
Since you disagree, I am happy to entertain your alternate interpretation to that passage.
Your claim was that Christ was raised in a glorified Body.
Scripture nowhere teaches this, so you must infer and speculate to support your claim.
There is no scripture that teaches Christ ascended and returned prior to the one and only ascension found in Acts 1.
I have scoured as many reputable commentaries on As I could find to find one that agrees with your view of John 20:17 with no luck. Could you point me to any? Of The commentaries I could find that address the "i am ascending", they all agree with my understanding. Does anybody else hold your view or are you alone in possession of this "truth"?
I suspect You don't need me to explain.
No more = No more
Since you disagree, I'm happy to entertain your alternative interpretation.
Obviously John hadn't seen Him "as He is" because Christ was no longer on the earth.
"as He is" could refer to a number of things.
It seems to me you're understanding it to mean Christ's physical appearance. What in the context leads you to believe that?
Also remember that Peter, James, and John, were given a vision of Christ coming in His kingdom at the Transfiguration. It was said that Moses and Elijah appeared with Him "in glory".
I said Christ's raised body was the spiritual body that Paul spoke of.
You can deny it if you choose to. What John wrote is pretty clear. Jesus said, "I am ascending to my Father". That was right after His resurrection.
Commentaries don't matter.
The bottom line is what did Jesus say? He said, "I am ascending to my Father." Given your position I only see two way to resolve this. Either one has to reject what Jesus said, or claim that the "ascending" was continuous of the 40 day period.
If that is the case I have one question. Why did He tell Mary not to cling to Him?
I've found that Christians tend to proof text a passage, impart their own understanding to the passage, and then claim this is what the Bible says.
The reason I'd like you to explain is so that I can see how your understanding of the passage fits with the context of Paul's statement.
Verses that Suggest Eternal Conscious Torment (At 1st Glance):
1. Matthew 18:6-9
(Better to have a millestone attached to one's neck and be drowned at sea; And better to enter life with one eye than having any body part cast into everlasting hell fire.):
"But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."
2. Matthew 25:46
(Eternal Life vs. Everlasting punishment):
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
3. Mark 9:48
(Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched):
"Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."
4. Jude 1:13
(They are reserved for the blackness of darkness forever.):
"Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever."
5. Revelation 14:9-11 (Smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and have no rest day or night):
If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
6. Revelation 20:10 (Tormented day and night forever and ever):
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Verses that Strongly Suggest Conditional Immortality:
1. Genesis 3:22 HCSB (Adam did not naturally have immortality)
“he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever."
2. 2 Peter 2:5-6 NHEB
(The wicked are condemned to destruction in global flood as an example of all who live Godly thereafter):
“and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a proclaimer of righteousness, when he brought a flood on the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”
3. (a) 2 Thessalonians 1:9
(The wicked will be punished with "everlasting destruction"):
(This is the everlasting punishment in Matthew 25:46).
(It is a destruction that has everlasting consequences):
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.
(b) Psalms 92:7 NLT
"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."
4. (a) Deuteronomy 7:10 (God destroys the wicked forever and repays them to their face):
“And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”
(b) 2 Peter 2:12
“But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;”
(c) Psalms 92:7
“When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:”
5. Job 4:8-9 (The wicked are consumed):
“Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”
6. (a) Psalms 1:6 (The ungodly will perish):
“For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”
(b) Luke 13:3
“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
(c) Job 4:8-9
“Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish..."
(d) 2 Peter 2:12
“But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;”
(e) Psalms 68:2
"...as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."
7. (a) Ezekiel 3:18-20 (The wicked will die):
“When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.”
(b) Ezekiel 18:4
“Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die”
8. (a) Romans 1:32 (The fate of the wicked is death):
“Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
(b) Romans 6:21
“What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.”
9. Revelation 21:8
(The wicked will experience a "second death"):
(It is called the "second death" because it relates to the "first death"):
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
10. 1 John 2:17 (The world passes away):
“And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever”
11. 1 John 5:11-13 (Eternal Life is only though abiding in the Son):
“And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”
12. 2 Timothy 1:10 (Immortality and Life is only through the gospel):
"But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel."
13. 1 Timothy 6:16 (Jesus alone has immortality):
(Are we to assume Jesus abides in the wicked to give them life for all eternity?):
"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen"
14. Isaiah 14:12 and Isaiah 14:19 (The Annihialation of the Devil):
(Lucifer's carcase will be trodden under foot):
(a) Isaiah 14:12
“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”
Isaiah 14:19
“....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”
(The Anointed Cherub that fell will be brought to ashes):
(b) Ezekiel 28:14-15 and Ezekiel 28:18
Ezekiel 28:14-15
“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”
Ezekiel 28:18
“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.” (Ezekiel 28:18)
15. 1 Corinthians 15:26
(The last enemy (death) is destroyed; This suggests that God's other enemies are destroyed):
“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”
16. Matthew 10:28
(Fear the one who can destroy both body AND soul in the Lake of Fire):
(Why fear something that Jesus will never do?):
“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”
17. Isaiah 66:22-24
(On the Eternal New Earth, The Saints will Witness the Lifeless Remains of the Wicked):
"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."
18. Psalms 68:2
(The wicked will melt like wax before a fire):
"...as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."
...
Good you got Matthew 10:28 into the list, since it's very convincing, but what about John 3:16? The word is we are either given eternal life or "perish". "Perish" doesn't sound much like continuing to live.
Also, "second death" doesn't sound at all like "second life" does it?
A piece which would tie everything together in a consistent way is that humans do not have eternal life unless given it, but in contrast that angels do, so that the fallen angels do already....Ergo, they could continue in the lake of fire, but not us, since we lack eternal life.
.I believe the Bible teaches "Dualistic Conditional Immortality."
This is the view as taught in the Bible that says that "hell" is a very real and literal place; But the wicked will perish (i.e. be erased from existence) in the Lake of Fire (After the Judgment).
As for a literal "hell": Well, I just do not believe there is any Scripture saying that the wicked will burn down there for thousands of years. Yes, the story of Lazarus and the Rich-man appears to suggest he was in the flame, but he also could have been referring to the heat of the flame in front of him (either nearby or in the great gulf between him and Abraham). In other words, when the rich-man said "I am tormented in this flame" (Luke 16:24) it would sort of be like if I said "I am tormented in this soldier." (referring to the flatulence from the soldier in front of me). For the first appearance of the English word "this" is used by Adam to refer to Eve who was in front of him (Genesis 2:23). Need another analogy and or another verse? Okay. Well, "in this" in Luke 16:24 is sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me. Similar language like this can be found with the words "in these" in Isaiah 57:6. Granted, I am not discounting the idea that the rich-man was burning in the actual flame itself, but I do not believe he was burning down there for thousands of years consciously being aware of that fact because God is fair and just in His Judgments.
47 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
(Luke 12:47-48).
Sir Arhur Conan Doyle once said,
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Side Note:
Also, if the Rich-man really was engulfed in flames, then how was he able to carry on a normal conversation with Abraham? For today, if a man was tied to a log and then lowered into a roaring camp fire, he would be too busy screaming over his pain so as to carry on a normal conversation with anyone. For if the Rich-man was able to hear Abraham over his own screams of pain, he would be asking Abraham for tons of buckets of water and not a few drops to cool his tongue.
As for the Lake of Fire being a place of annihialation:
Jesus said, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28). While I am not claiming to be an expert on Greek, scholars have said that the word "hell" here is taken from the Greek word "geenna" which is a reference to the Lake of Fire.
If that is the case, the point here is that Jesus can destroy both body AND THE SOUL (of a person) in the Lake of Fire. For Jesus destroying the soul and body is related to man destroying or killing the physical body here on this Earth. Are you saying that men do not fear physical death? Jesus is telling us not to fear the one who can destroy our physical body because if we trust in Him, we will never techincally die (i.e. Face the second death, i.e. the Lake of Fire); but we will have everlasting LIFE. In fact, the Lake of Fire is called the "Second Death" because it relates to the "First Death."
Anyways, Jesus is saying we should really fear Him because He has the true power of ending life or not. For if a believer's body dies, they will one day be resurrected and live with Jesus on the Eternal New Earth....
Verses That Are In Support of Conditional Immortality:
“...he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever." (Genesis 3:22 HCSB).
.
Now lets move on to Hell and where it stands in the future.
Rev. 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
As you can see, The Lake of Fire and Brimstone, is a PLACE of TORMENT for Ever and Ever
G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
G104
ἀεί
aei
ah-eye'
From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); “ever”; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.
G5550
χρόνος
chronos
khron'-os
Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.
Now we come to Hell and it's future position.
Rev. 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Hell itself only lasts as long as there are people to be put into it, then Hell itself is cast into the Lake of Fire, with the Devil, the Beast, the False Prophet, and Death, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
So then your theory of "The Dualistic Conditional Immortality" is incorrect.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?