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Featured The Double Message of Eternal Security.

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Jun 23, 2017.

  1. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    I'll be back later. I received the new Midsomer Murders. I don't know if you watch TV and watch that show. I love British TV. I also want to come over there and see all the villages they film in.
     
  2. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Each moment you are walking either by sin or the flesh and each moment we make the choice again.
     
  3. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    You are making good points and quoting excellent verses.
    Just to repeat. If we don't repent/ tell God we are sorry when we err our salvation would have to be lost. But as surely as night follows day the born again Christian will repent for they have the law in their heart, and as you say, the Holy Spirit will be convicting them of their sin.
    In regards to gal5:18. In my view it is not as cut and dried as an initial reading might suggest. It comes back to reading the Bible as a cohesive whole.
    One woman, on another website said: As soon as you become a Christian, if you thereafter commit any sin you are a slave of Satan and possessed by demons.
    In my view that is monstrous:

    If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does this mean that Christ promotes sin?
    Absolutely not, if i rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker
    Gal2:16&17

    The Christian is a work in progress. As long as they are following that work in progress they have the assurance they are not under law but under grace. They are BEING made Holy( not perfect) heb10:14

    It is when the Christian steps outside of that work in progress the problems come
    Does that make sense to you?
     
  4. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why are you turning this around?

    Your the one who said Romans 7:14-24 is about Paul BEFORE he became born again in Christ.

    Not true. Paul is writing this from the perspective of his own struggle as a Christian. Not as a pharisee
     
  5. stuart lawrence

    stuart lawrence Well-Known Member

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    Enjoy the programme. I only watched it once
    If you come to England I hope you get good weather( never guaranteed) those villages look lovely on a warm summers day
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  6. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    What are you saying? It seemed that you said we sin all the time, every moment of the day. Did you mean to say that?
     
  7. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    For the most part, yes. I don't take a black and white position as the woman on the other website. That would mean the Holy Spirit doesn't convict, just leaves you to the devil. Wrong.
     
  8. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    How close are you to them? I think they are around Oxford. Maybe wrong.
     
  9. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    Paul says we have liberty in Christ, Peter says we have liberty in Christ. What is the liberty that Christians have that others do not?

    In Christ
    Daniel
     
  10. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    In 1 Corinthians 5, a Christian is caught up in the sin of fornication. His body is to be delivered to satan...yet his soul is saved in the day of the Lord.

    Why isn't this fornicator not suffering in hell? What is different about him?

    In Christ
    Daniel
     
  11. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    There is no scripture that teaches OSAS.

    JLB
     
  12. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life.

    If we don't have eternal life, why is this lie in the Bible. It's straight forward, it's to the point. Why doesn't it say, he who believes on the Son is working towards eternal life?

    In Christ
    Daniel
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Repeating something to yourself over and over does not make that thing true. Truth in God's Word is determined by looking at the context and by looking at cross references.

    Here are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

    #1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

    #2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts of the Apostles 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

    #3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

    #4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

    #5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

    #6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

    #7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
    3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

    So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
    It was the Old Covenant Law.
    For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
    Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
    Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

    Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

    This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

    Paul says elsewhere,
    8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

    (Romans 13:8-10).

    So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
    We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

    So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

    #8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

    In Romans 8:2, we see:

    Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
    This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
    It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

    Law #2. Sin and Death.
    This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

    What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

    Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
    For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).



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    Last edited: Jul 4, 2017
  14. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    1 ephesians 13-14
    In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation: in whom also you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His Glory.

    In Christ
    Daniel
     
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Stop seeing what you want to see. David repented in Psalms 51.


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  16. Dan61861

    Dan61861 7 days without God, makes one weak.

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    Open your eyes Jason, it is all about Christ.
     
  17. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    1st Century Lady:

    When you have the time, please read my previous post to you so as to be fair in looking at all the available information presented to you.

    Thank you so much, and may God bless you.

    Sincerely,

    ~ Jason.


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  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    This is not true in your belief.
    It is not all about Christ if you also believe you can sin and still be saved.
    Christ would be given all the glory when He is able to shine through a believer's life and sin is not given any foot hold in any way in their life.

    Just see the passage in my signature at the bottom of each of my posts.


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  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Those who do not see are those who are trying to justify sin and evil.


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  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
    4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

    "...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble..." (James 4:6).


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