We are reading the NT from Romans through Jude. It was verse 8, last sentence.
Thank you. I will read on my own with God these books and take notes on them.
After I am done, I may share my findings later here in this thread or on another one.
But thank you for giving me the reading study plan. I know it will be fruitful.
You said:
7:8b For apart from the law sin was dead.
6:2b How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
I believe this is talking about the Old Law and it is not talking about New Covenant Law or all law in general; For Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. When Paul says, "shall we continue in sin?" in Romans 6 and when he says, "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me" in Romans 7, Paul is talking about the good or righteous aspect or part of the Old Law (See the "righteousness of the Law" in Romans 8:4). Paul as a pharisee could not keep the good part of the Old Law (i.e. the moral law) because he did not have Jesus yet in his life to overcome his struggle with keeping the moral law.
You said:
I wanted to see if we merely died to the law which revealed sin, or sin itself. The answer I found last night which I already believed is both. You and stuart are both right, but can't agree because you are both coming at it from opposite sides of the pendulum, and the center is the Holy Spirit. And you both understand the Holy Spirit's role but rarely use it, so seldom agree, if ever.
No. Stuart is not right because he is teaching that God's grace is a license for immorality that is warned to us in Jude 1:4; Whereas I believe God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live soberly, righteously, and Godly in this present world (TItus 2:11-12). Stuart believes you can sin on occasion and still be saved (or that you can die in one or two unrepentant sins and be saved) because he believes that keeping the moral law ultimately is not a salvation issue but yet he thinks the believer will live holy or more Christ like. This is what this thread is all about. He is preaching a double message of Eternal Security. One message says you can sin and still be saved and never stop sinning in this life and the other message says you will live more Christ like and holy. Both of these messages within Eternal Securirity conflict with each other. It is a false gospel message. The lie is evident in that it is not consistent within itself. No standard of morality is truly being upheld here. For sin is being minimized in favor of God's saving grace.
You said:
The answer is Romans 8:2, and why Christ is the end of the law (stuart), and yet we still have law (you). We are dead to the law, but those SAME moral laws are written on our hearts by the Spirit. We are under the LAW OF THE SPIRIT, not the law that says not to do something, as stuart pointed out (don't think of a pink bunnie - you automatically DO think of a pink bunnie.)
No. The New Testament Scriptures were not finished yet when Paul was writing the New Covenant. The Holy Spirit had written the New Testament. So any commands that comes from the New Covenant come from God the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Writing the Laws of God on your heart and abiding with God and Christ was not a new teaching (Note: See my "Side Note" comment to you below within this post). While both me and Stuart may believe the laws of God are written on our heart and we follow the Holy Spirit, Stuart does not believe that keeping these moral laws relates to his salvation in any way. He says he is under God's laws but keeping them is not a salvation issue. Romans 8:12-13 says
12 "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live." (Romans 8:12-13).
Verse 13 says if we live after the flesh we will die. This is talking about spiritual life and death because all people live and die regardless of how a person lives. Verse 13 says, if we live after the flesh we will die. We will die ... spiritually! Yet, if we live through the Spirit (obeying the commands of the New Testament that the Spirit had written through men) we do mortify (put to death) the sinful deeds of the body we will live.... spiritually! In other words, if one is not putting away sin out of their life and or going through the Sanctification process in living more holy, they are not living but they are dead on a spiritual level. For Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness no man shall see the Lord. One cannot be holy and yet also justify the idea that we can sin and be rewarded with Heaven and or say to people that we can just believe on Jesus and it is not in anything that you do (because that will lead people to treat God's grace as a license to sin).
You said:
Here in context: 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death (Thou shalt NOT). 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh (entertaining pink bunnies), God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Paul (Saul) used to be in the false pharisee religion (See my "Side Note" below). It was all about works for him in that religion and not God's grace and a Savior. Paul did not have Jesus to help him to overcome his sin. The righteous aspect or part of the Law (i.e. the Old Law) mentioned in verse 4 is the moral Law. See Romans 13:8-10. It is loving your neighbor. This righteous aspect or part of the "law" (the moral law) is fulfilled in us believers who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit. For one of the fruits of the Spirit is love. If somebody is sinning on occasion or trying to justify that they can sin and still be saved, they are not showing a fruit of the Spirit in this case. For God cannot agree with sin. For He is holy, righteous, and good. Paul thanked Jesus that he has now overcome this struggle with the good part of the Old Law as a Pharisee. We are told in Romans 13:14 to put on the Lord Jesus Christ so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This would involve placing God's New Covenant laws upon our hearts (and not the Old Covenant laws as a whole). For we are under a New Covenant with new laws and commands.
You said:
1 John 1:7 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
Most Eternal Security proponents believe 1 John 1:7 does not relate to salvation. They think it is dealing with a loss of fellowship if you sin. But that is not what it is saying. 1 John 1:7 is saying that you must walk in the light of Christ so that the blood of Jesus cleanses you from all sin. No walking in the light of Christ means no cleansing blood that saves us. Stuart would strongly disagree with my interpretation on 1 John 1:7. He believes that a belief in Jesus is what saves you and sin cannot separate you from God. He believes that a believer will generally live holy as a part of being in Christ. But what about the other little sins? Also, what about others who do believe in Eternal Security and do treat God's grace as a license to sin thinking they are saved even if they were to mow down a crowd with a sub machine gun? In my many years of discussing Eternal Security, the hardcore sin and still be saved types do not appear to be teaching a different gospel message (at first glance) than those who teach that holiness is a mark of a true believer. They both sound the same. They both say all you need to do is believe in Jesus and you are saved and no sin can separate you from God. Sin is reduced to being no more dangerous than say a fluffy kitten. How ridiculous. Jesus said in Matthew 6:15 says if you do not forgive, then you will not be forgiven. Jesus says if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body is in danger of hell fire. John says that we have hate our brother that no eternal life abides within us (1 John 3:15). The keeping of all law has not be abrogated in regards to our salvation. 1 John 3:23 says that we are commanded to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. If the keeping of all law or commands were abrogated in regards to our salvation, then surely this command or law would be abrogated (in regards to our salvation), too.
Side Note:
Oh, and I do not believe the Old Covenant was a failed system of salvation (otherwise no saints from the Old Testament would be saved then). Yes, the Old Covenant was not as perfect as the New Covenant because the Messiah (Jesus) had not been revealed yet, along with His plan of salvation (i.e. To believe in His death and resurrection), and the truths revealed by Him, but I believe the Old Testament saint was born again spiritually and they dwelled with God and Christ, too. God originally intended His people (Israel) to also write His laws in their heart and for God to dwell in them and for them to obey out of love. For perfect love casts out fear. How does one have perfect love? Well, one perfects love by keeping His Word (1 John 2:5). This was in harmony with God's grace and repentance (that is for every believer since the very beginning with Adam and Eve). There were faithful Old Testament saints who did the right thing.
At one time, Paul (Saul) used to be in a false religion (i.e. the Pharisee religion) and he was not in the true Old Covenant ways of following the Lord. In the Pharisee religion it was all about an overemphasis of the Law and there was no focus on God's grace through repentance. Remember, even Jonah had preached to a city of Gentiles and they had repented and were saved by God's grace (By caling out to God for for the forgiveness of their sin). This was the true old ways that was absent from Paul's false old religion of thinking that one can just keep God's laws alone and be saved. We get a glimpse of the false pharisee religion in the parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee. We learn that the Pharisee did not humble himself by asking for God's grace and mercy like the Tax Collector. It's why Jesus said, "repent or perish." The Pharisees were in desperate need to repent because they ignored the weightier matters of the law like justice, love, and mercy, etc. So when Paul talks about his struggle with keeping the Old Law in the false pharisee religion (that was all about works and no grace and no Savior), he could not keep the Law. Paul (Saul) did not have Jesus yet in his life yet to overcome sin. Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh but after the Spirit. So somebody needs Jesus and they need to walk after the Spirit to not be under the Condemnation. One is not walking after the Spirit if they are justifying a sin and still be saved gospel and or they are minmizing sin. It doesn't work like that. God is good and His people are good, too.
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