The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[razzelflabben]

Did anyone notice that my post was once again ignored?

 

[Major1]

The luphole is huge. There are 500 plus passages of scripture that CLEARLY STATE that the end of the wicked is death and destruction. God you people [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] me off! You dont reinterpret 500 plus passagesif scripture to fit in with a few! If you did, youd have to do that with every subject in scripture.


Also, your argument that aionios is "commonly translated" as forever is meaningless. My argument is that their translation is flat out wrong! A look into the greek shows that this word literally means pertaining to an age. What about that do you not get? Aion=age....ios=pertaining to. Simple. Certainly, in a lot of these verses, the age in question is in fact eternal. But it is the age that os eternal, not the sinner. Only believers get immorality.


In order for aionios to mean forever and ever, it must pass the test of proper exegesis. And with 500 plus pasages of scripture that clearly state that the end of the wicked is death and detsruction, this definition of aionios clearly does not pass the test. Where in the world to you get off reinterpreting so many passages to fit in with a few?

You said............
"God you people [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] me off!"

Your hands are exposing your heart. If you are a committed Christian you would not have the need to make such a statement.

Not only are you incorrect on the 500 verses you do not seem to understand that we as believers are not to think say such things much less say then.

Titus 2:8 tells us that we should be........
"and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us."

When you understand that simple Scripture, maybe we can then talk about the others you are incorrectly arguing about.

 

[Major1]

Did anyone notice that my post was once again ignored?

I noticed it!

 

[razzelflabben]

You said............
"God you people [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] me off!"

Your hands are exposing your heart. If you are a committed Christian you would not have the need to make such a statement.

Not only are you incorrect on the 500 verses you do not seem to understand that we as believers are not to think say such things much less say then.

Titus 2:8 tells us that we should be........
"and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us."

When you understand that simple Scripture, maybe we can then talk about the others you are incorrectly arguing about.

just FYI, I said something one time was non sense and it typed [bless and do not curse] point being it could be innocent, doesn't sound like it, but could be in order to be fair.

 

[Der Alte]

I cant believe how much downright dishonesty I am seeing here. Try as the traditionalists might, aionios does NOT mean forever and ever. It means age and the range of meanings it carries all have to do with age. Age during, pertaining to an age, age lasting ect......
Funny thing is that there is a greek word that actually and primarily means everlasting, forever ect. The word is aidios and it is NOT found in any of the texts that seem to say that people will burn forever. I mean, why not use the one word that actually and primairly means forever if you are trying to convey a sense of eternal torment? Makes no sense whatsoever.

This is the typical biased, uninformed diatribe. Since I have seen these same arguments many times I am assuming that your source of information is the internet and you believe everything you read.

The fact is that there are 500 plus scriptures that directly state that the end of the wicked is death and destruction. There is a passage in nearly every page of scripture that states this. So how in the world does on come up with the nonsense theology that is eternal torment?

No there is not! You mentioned dishonesty above. This is dishonesty. The Greek word for perish/destroy is apolummi and occurs only 90 times in the N.T. and of that 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction, annihilation which some groups claim occur at the final judgment. About half of this post is blatantly false assertions and accusations.

What traditionalists do is they reinterpret all of these hundreds and hundreds of scriptures to try to make them fit with the few that seem to fit their theology. This is shockingly careless and willfully dishonest. But this is how they come up with these ideas that death doesnt mean death and destruction doesnt mean destruction. Its just willful ignorance.

More false information.

The reason they do this is mainly because they truly believe in the idea of the immortal soul. And since the soul lives forever, it must either be punished forever or live in bliss forever. The problem is that the bible nowhere teaches the concept of an immortal soul. There are over 800 verses in scripture that reference the soul, and not a single one of them even hint that the soul is immortal. As a matter of fact, quite a few of these passages plainly state that the soul can, does, and will die. Ezekiel 18:20 and Matthew 10:28 are just a couple of those passages. If the soul were really immortal, dont you think that even one of these 800 plus verses would say so?
But I guess it doesn't matter. I have come to the conclusion that those who defend the eternal torment doctrine know full well how dishonest they are being with the scriptures. After all, most of these guys would never let you get away with applying their own exegesis to other biblical subjects. ...It goes without saying that this type of exegesis is not ok. Its wrong and its dishonest. Yet this is exactly what traditionalists do with the eternal torment doctrine. They take a few passages in Revelation, and one from Matthew, an reinterpret hundreds of scriptures in light of those few. In doing so, they break every exegetical rule under the sun. They know theyre engaging in bad exegesis but they do it anyway. And thats what really makes me mad. Its the fact that traditonlists know full well that they are mishandling the scriptures yet they keep right on doing it.

There isnt a traditionalist Ive debated in real life that I havent absolutely embarassed whem we compared scriptures.

I highly doubt this. I started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany. I formally studied both Biblical languages at the graduate about 2 decades later. I await you trying to embarrass me.

But I am not even sure I am going to deal with these people anymore. Like I said, they live in a fantasy land where death dont mean death and destruction dont mean destruction and burn up doesnt mean burn up. They just flat out make up new definitions for these words. If they did this in any other context, a psychiatrist would diagnose them as delusional and unfit to stand trial. I had more to say but Im not even in the mood to keep writing about this

As for the meaning of aion and aionios see my next post immediately following.

 

[Der Alte]

Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references!
1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,
2. Thayer’s Lexicon,
3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references,
4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references,
5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament,
6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott,
7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references,
8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature,
9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.
Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *
NIDNTT Colin Brown
Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios

Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.
0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY
αιωνιος
• Strong's - Greek 165
• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…
aion - αιων - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• aionion, aionios – αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System. ​

What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

 

[Major1]

Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references!
1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,
2. Thayer’s Lexicon,
3. Vine’s Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references,
4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references,
5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament,
6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott,
7. Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, 3 references,
8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature,
9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.
Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal:— eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,​

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers​

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
"The predominant meaning of αιωνιος , that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.
αιωνιος is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of αιωνιος here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp 232, 233. (from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words) (Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)​

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - ‘eternal.’
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" ‘his eternal power and divine nature’ Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion ‘be thrown into the eternal fire’ Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` ‘of the eternal God’ Ro 16.26.
The most frequent use of αιωνιος in the NT is with zwhv ‘life,’ for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion ‘so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life’ Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, αιωνιος evidently carries certain implications associated with αιωνιος in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates ‘eternal life’ as simply ‘never dying,’ there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that ‘never dying’ refers only to physical existence rather than to ‘spiritual death.’ Accordingly, some translators have rendered ‘eternal life’ as ‘unending real life,’ so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.​

αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning “eternal,” and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps “unceasing”).

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.​

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.​

166 aionios { ahee-o’-nee-os} αιωνιος from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.​

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, … It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).
Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: …The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, … And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." … Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages.. ]
In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *
NIDNTT Colin Brown
Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). … According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios

Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. … That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.
0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
αιωνιος (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. …keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). …On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, …carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. ’67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.​

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY
αιωνιος
• Strong's - Greek 165
• NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds
• CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever);
• The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, … reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity… As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end…
aion - αιων - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.
• aionion, aionios – αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.
• "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixty–six places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)
• Eis tous aionios ton aionion – εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - ‘always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System. ​

What do Greek dictionaries say about "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry

Wow! You have convinced me brother. I now believe that the wicked lost will be tormented "Eternally" in hell.

 

[Major1]

just FYI, I said something one time was non sense and it typed [bless and do not curse] point being it could be innocent, doesn't sound like it, but could be in order to be fair.

You maybe right but I really do not think so because He did the very same thing the second post to me.

IMO he is saying " I am going to bless you instead of cursing you".

That speaks of the condition of his heart.

 

[Der Alte]

You maybe right but I really do not think so because He did the very same thing the second post to me.
IMO he is saying " I am going to bless you instead of cursing you".
That speaks of the condition of his heart.

Whenever you see [bless and do not curse] in a post the censor function of this forum has detected a prohibited swear word and replaced each letter with [bless and do not curse].

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Gabriel Anton:

Thank you for the "heart" and "useful" likes on my posts. I appreciate that.

May God bless you so much for your kindness.

Sincerely,

~ Jason.


Side Note:

Oh, and sorry for the interruption folks. Please continue on.
And may His love and mercy shine upon you all.


...

 

[Major1]

Whenever you see [bless and do not curse] in a post the censor function of this forum has detected a prohibited swear word and replaced each letter with [bless and do not curse].

Now that is a wonderful thing to know. Thanks !!!

What that does is to tell me condition of the person's heart.

Garbage in.....garbage out.

 

[Major1]

What I have said is truth. There are, in fact, 500 plus passages of scripture that clearly state that the wicked will be consumed/burned up/ destroyed/perished/killed. Whats more is that I believe you know this.


Heres something else you already know. Appollumi means to destroy fully. Thats what it means. And you know this. So quit being willfully dishonest with the scriptures

You are calling others dishonest. That is real funny brother. 500 verses????

Please......Please post just ONE!!!! No need to see those 500......Just ONE verse that says the "wicked lost will be consumed in the Lake of fire".

If there are 500, you should have no trouble posting one. In fact, with the way you argue your opinion you probably have ONE memorized.

Now you are concerned with honestly so do not post verses that speak of "Pershing or being separated".
"Pershing does not mean consumption. "Death" does not mean annialated.

I know you want to be honest so please use the correct exegesis ability that you have to properly post that one ver.

 

[aiki]

Try as the traditionalists might, aionios does NOT mean forever and ever. It means age and the range of meanings it carries all have to do with age. Age during, pertaining to an age, age lasting ect......

It is actually a fallacious hermeneutic to determine the meaning of a word in Scripture solely by way of its root meaning. What is much more important is to gain an understanding of the way it was commonly used both in Scripture and, if possible, outside of it, too. In every language, words undergo change. What they meant originally may in time become far removed from how the word is used perhaps only a decade or two later. The English language is a prime example and I'm sure you can think of many words that have changed profoundly in their meaning over a relatively short time. I certainly can. Trying, then, to restrict the meaning of "aionios" to its root meaning is inappropriate because it quite ignores the evolving nature of language.

As Major1 has pointed out, confining the term "aionios" to "age lasting or pertaining to an age" creates problems when that word is used in Scripture to describe the everlasting nature of God. This is a perfect example of why your fallacious hermeneutic is problematic and flawed. Clearly, the Bible does not use "aionios" only to mean "age lasting or pertaining to an age"; for God is not in His "aionios" existence confined to an age of time.

The word is aidios and it is NOT found in any of the texts that seem to say that people will burn forever. I mean, why not use the one word that actually and primairly means forever if you are trying to convey a sense of eternal torment? Makes no sense whatsoever.

It only has this confusing quality when you are trying to impose your annihilationist ideas on Scripture and inappropriately confine the meaning of certain words to their root.

The fact is that there are 500 plus scriptures that directly state that the end of the wicked is death and destruction. There is a passage in nearly every page of scripture that states this. So how in the world does on come up with the nonsense theology that is eternal torment?

If you had read this thread carefully, you would already have your answer. The issue isn't how often the Bible uses the terms "dead" or "destruction" in connection with the eternal fate of the unrepentant wicked but what one understands those words to mean. As has been pointed out now many times in this thread, "dead" and "destruction" do not mean "annihilation" in the Bible. These words have a wide spectrum of meaning and in connection with the fate of the wicked in the afterlife these terms are better understood to mean "ruination" or "utter loss of well-being" than "annihilation."

This is shockingly careless and willfully dishonest. But this is how they come up with these ideas that death doesnt mean death and destruction doesnt mean destruction. Its just willful ignorance.

Not hardly. This thread completely refutes your assertion here. There is very good reason to hold to the classic view of ECT. If there is any willful ignorance, it seems to me much more evident on your side of the debate.

The problem is that the bible nowhere teaches the concept of an immortal soul. There are over 800 verses in scripture that reference the soul, and not a single one of them even hint that the soul is immortal.

Asked and answered. Repeatedly. In this thread. Your bald (and totally false) assertion here does not advance your view or diminish ours one iota.

But I guess it doesn't matter. I have come to the conclusion that those who defend the eternal torment doctrine know full well how dishonest they are being with the scriptures.

Ah. When all else fails resort to ad hominem.

Imagine, for example, a college kid who claims that he can sleep with all the college girls he wants because there are 4 passages in scripture that say to be fruitful and multiply. And when you confront him with the 100 plus verses that speak against sexual promiscuity, he tells you that you must reinterpret all those passages to fit with the few passages he purports to be on his side. It goes without saying that this type of exegesis is not ok. Its wrong and its dishonest. Yet this is exactly what traditionalisys do with the eternal torment doctrine.

Strawman. Nice try, though.

In doing so, they break every exegetical rule under the sun. They know theyre engaging in bad exegesis but they do it anyway. And thats what really makes me mad. Its the fact that traditonlists know full well that they are mishandling the scriptures yet they keep right on doing it.

*Sigh* Rant much? Venting does not constitute a good argument and the strength of your emotion doesn't prove the rightness of your claims.

There isnt a traditionalist Ive debated in real life that I havent absolutely embarassed whem we compared scriptures.

Well, we have to take your word for this, don't we? I could say the same about every annihilationist I've faced in real life.

But I am not even sure I am going to deal with these people anymore. Like I said, they live in a fantasy land where death dont mean death and destruction dont mean destruction and burn up doesnt mean burn up. They just flat out make up new definitions for these words. If they did this in any other context, a psychiatrist would diagnose them as delusional and unfit to stand trial. I had more to say but Im not even in the mood to keep writing about this

And more ad hominem. The sound of a dying argument...

Selah.

 

[aiki]

Please refer to Der Alter's last post. I posted without first reading it. He quite demolishes the notion of "aionios" being restricted only to "age lasting or pertaining to an age." Good stuff.

Selah.

 

[aiki]

Yeah, in this thread Gabriel Anton has given me several "likes" and a couple of "winner" votes, too. I also appreciate his approbation of my comments. Thanks, GA!

 

[Der Alte]

What I have said is truth. There are, in fact, 500 plus passages of scripture that clearly state that the wicked will be consumed/burned up/ destroyed/perished/killed. Whats more is that I believe you know this.

How can I "know" something which is absolutely false. It is internet rubbish! As I said the word translated destroy/perish in the NT is apolummi and it occurs 90 times in the NT and of that 68 times it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some folks claims happens at the final judgment.

Heres something else you already know. Appollumi means to destroy fully. Thats what it means. And you know this. So quit being willfully dishonest with the scriptures

I know no such thing. Neither do you, you are just repeating stuff you read on the internet. Do not call me names again I will report you. As I said I started learning to speak Greek the year Elvis and I were stationed in Germany and I formally studied both Biblical Hebrew and Greek, at the graduate level, about 2 decades after that which was about 3 decades ago. I never say anything I cannot back up.
.....Here is the definition of apolummi from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi, one of, if not the, most highly accredited lexicons available. Here is a list of meanings other than destroy/perish.
(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

ἀπόλλυμι for its conj. s. Bl-D. §101 ( s.v. o[llumi ); Rob. 317; fut. ajpolevsw Hs 8, 7, 5, Att. ajpolw` 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ); 1 aor. ajpwvlesa ; 1 pf. ajpolwvleka ; fut. mid. ajpolou`mai Lk 13:3 ; 2 aor. ajpwlovmhn ; the 2 pf. ajpovlwla serves as a pf. mid ., ptc. ajpolwlwv" ( Hom. +; inscr. , pap. , LXX , En. , Philo , Joseph. , Test. 12 Patr. ).
1. act .— a. ruin, destroy.
a. of pers. (Sir 10:3 ) Mk 1:24 ; Lk 4:34 . W. ref. to eternal destruction mh; ejkei`non ajpovllue do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15 . Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4 ; Esth 9:6 v.l .; 1 Macc 2:37 ; Jos. , C. Ap. 1, 122) Hs 9, 26, 7. paidivon Mt 2:13 ; Jesus 12:14 ; 27:20 ; Mk 3:6 ; 11:18 ; Lk 19:47 ; B 12:5; [kill] the wicked tenants kakou;" kakw`" aj. ( s. kakov" 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41 . tou;" gewrgouv" Mk 12:9 ; Lk 20:16 ; t. fonei`" Mt 22:7 ; t. mh; pisteuvsanta" those who did not believe Jd 5 ; pavnta" Lk 17:27 , 29 . W. sw`sai (1ike Charito 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12 ; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death ( Herm. Wr. 4, 7) yuch;n k. sw`ma aj. ejn geevnnh/ Mt 10:28; yuchvn B 20:1; t. yucav" Hs 9, 26,3 (cf.Sir 20:22).
b. w. impers. obj. aj. t. sofivan t. sofw`n destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14 ). aj. t. diavnoian destroy the understanding Hm 11:1.— g. without obj. J 10:10 .
b. lose ( X. , Pla. +; PPetr. III 51, 5; POxy. 743, 23; PFay. 111, 3 ff ; Sir 6:3 ; 9:6 ; 27:16 et al .; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14 ) t. misqovn lose the reward Mt 10:42 ; Mk 9:41 ; Hs 5, 6, 7. dracmhvn ( Dio Chrys. 70[20], 25) Lk 15:8 f ; aj. a} hjrgasavmeqa lose what we have worked for 2J 8 . diaqhvkhn B 4:6, 8. th;n zwh;n t. ajnqrwvpwn Hm 2:1; cf. s 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2 f and 5. th;n ejlpivda m 5, 1, 7.— W . colloqu. flavor i{na pa`n o} devdwkevn moi mhv ajpolevsw ejx aujtou` that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 ( Bl-D. §466, 3; Rob. 437; 753).— aj. th;n yuchvn ( cf. Sir 20:22 ) lose one’s life Mt 10:39 ; 16:25 ; Mk 8:35 ; Lk 9:24 ; 17:33 ; cf. J 12:25 . For this aj. eJautovn lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus Lyr. [VII BC ], fgm. 8 Diehl 2 lines 12 ff : ‘The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
2. mid .— a. be destroyed, ruined.
a. of pers. perish, die ( schol. on Nicander , Ther. 188 ajpovllutai oJ ajnhvr =the man dies) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1 f. As a cry of anguish ajpolluvmeqa we are perishing! ( PPetr. II 4, 4 nuni; de; ajpolluvmeqa ) Mt 8:25 ; Mk 4:38 ; Lk 8:24 ( Arrian , Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ejn macaivrh/ aj. die by the sword Mt 26:52 . limw`/ [die] of hunger (Ezk 34:29 ) Lk 15:17 . th`/ ajntilogiva/ tou` Kovre Jd 11 c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted; cf. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). uJpo; tino" ( Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13[7], 12) uJpo; t. o[fewn killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9 ; cf. vs. 1 0. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50 . Of individuals (Lev 23:30 ) Ac 5:37 ; 2 Pt 3:9 ; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20 ).—Esp. of eternal death ( cf. Ps 9:6 f ; 36:20; 67:3 ; 91:10 ; Is 41:11 ) J 3:16 ; 17:12 . ajpolevsqai eij" to;n aijw`na perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 hJmei`" ajpolluvmenoi to;n aijw`na). ajnovmw" aj. Ro 2:12 ; mwrw`" aj. IEph 17:2; ejn kauchvsei because of boasting ITr 4:1; cf. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11 ; 15:18 ; 2 Cl 17:1.— oiJ ajpolluvmenoi ( opp. oiJ sw/zovmenoi , like Plut. , Mor. 469 D ) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18 ; 2 Cor 2:15 ; 4:3 ; 2 Th 2:10 ; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this to; ajpolwlov" Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:11 —Ezk 34:4 , 16 ). ta; ajpolluvmena 2 Cl 2:7 ( cf. Dit., Syll. 3 417, 9 ta; te ajpolwlovta ejk t. iJerou` ajnevswsan ). b. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined ( Jos. , Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem) of bursting wineskins Mk 9:17 ; Mk 2:22 ; Lk 5:37 ; fading beauty Js 1:11 ; transitory beauty of gold 1 Pt 1:7 ; passing splendor Rv 18:14 ( w. ajpov as Jer 10:11 ; Da 7:17 ). Of earthly food J 6:27 ; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27 ). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6 ).
b. be lost (Antipho 54 Diels, Vorsokrat. ajpolovmenon ajrguvrion ; X. , Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3 ) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18 ; Ac 27:34 ; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29 f ; remnants of food J 6:12
. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.—Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6 ; 15:24 ; Lk 15:4 , 6 ; B 5:12 ( cf. Jer 27:6 ; Ezk 34:4 ; Ps 118:176 ). Of a lost son [who has returned]Lk 15:24 ( Artem. 4, 33 hJ gunhv. . . t. uiJo;n ajpwvlese kai. . . eu|ren aujtovn .—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). aj. qew`/ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4. M-M. B. 758; 766.
BAG Greek Lexicon online​

 

[Der Alte]

What a bunch of hogwash. Of course you know. It is well known on both sides of this debate that the primary meaning of appollumi is to destroy fully. You also know full well that there is something on almost every page of scripture that clearly states that the wicked will be destroyed....killed....will perish....be slaughtered......will vanish like smoke.....burn up like weeds.....be like ashes under your feet.....and on and on and on and on and on. And of course appolumi means annihilation. Lol annihilation is just another way of saying destruction and , as we both know, appolumis primary meaning is to destroy fully.

You keep repeating the same nonsense over and over, that does not make it true. No there is not "something on almost every page of scripture that clearly states that the wicked will be destroyed..." "Die" is not destroyed! Ruin is not destroyed! When people kill other people that is not destroy. When wine apolummi/turns sour that is not destroy! When food apolummi/spoils that is not destroy! When apolummi/lost sheep are found that is not destroy! When a widow's coin apolummi/lost that is not destroyed! Flowers that apolummi/fade is not destruction! A wineskin that apolummi/bursts is not destruction! When a prodigal son apolummi and returns he is not destroyed. As I keep saying and you keep ignoring 68% of the time apolummi cannot mean the destruction/annihilation you claim occurs at the final judgment. And most of the proof texts you alluded to do not refer to the final judgment but what happens to sinners and Israel's enemies in this world.

Wanna know whats really funny to me though? Youve refuted yourself. Most of the definitions youve listed for appollumi mean death or destruction haha. Drowning in our own sea of you-know-what, are we? Ahahahahahahaha. I just read your definitions of appolumi again and [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] am i laughing like crazy. I mean almost all of them say to die or lose ones life ahahahahahahahaha but hey, somehow that all really means eternal torment right? Ahahahahahahahahahahaha thanks man. I needed a laugh and youve most definetly provided one

The laugh is on you. You are wrong! You evidently did not read my post you only read what you wanted to see. Most of the definitions provided do not mean the destruction/annihilation you claim occurs at the final judgment. I listed 35 meanings from the definition which do not mean destruction/annihilation.

 

[Der Alte]

. . . Dont understand how you can say the immortal soul statement is refuted. 800 pasaages of scripture about the soul and not a one of them says that the soul is immortal. It blows my mind that someone who claims to know proper exegesis wont accept this. Again....willful dishonesty. . . .

The word "soul" only occurs 459 times in the entire Bible not 800 times. See your last statement, above, that evidently applies to you.

 

[Hillsage]

you seem hung up on the idea of eternal hell rather than what that really means. See, eternal hell basically, shortest version I know to explain it is eternity separated from God. As God, Jesus could not be eternally separated from Himself and didn't need to be because He Himself was without sin. Just like all believers are not eternally separated from God because the debt was already paid for that sin.

Let me start with this; I hate long posts....both to me and from me. Too many rabbit trails open up. So I'm just going to answer your first paragraph, which will be plenty for me to write and for you to even begin to understand where I come from in my relationship with God and 'present' understanding about Him/us/bible. But I do want to finish the rest of your post as you've asked/shared several good/interesting talking points. Points which you may think I can answer with 'one liners' and I'm thinking 'one pagers'.....I'm serious....sorry. So, shorter is best IMO.

1. To start, 'I think the church is the one "hung up on the idea of eternal hell'. If the church was gone 'the idea' would be gone. If I was gone 'the idea' would most assuredly still be big, right? Second, your 'Hell definition' really is a 'secondarily' "shortest version" according to some, but definitely not everyone IMO. As for me, Hell is a man made English word which Jesus, who spoke Aramaic/Hebrew (Greek/Latin???), never spoke. He did talk about two places written to us originally in Greek as gehenna and hades though. And Gehenna/hades is two different words for two different places which covered up with one English word HELL. And then we have tartaroo, another Greek word, spoken of '1 Peter' but not by Jesus, which is another Greek word, also translated HELL. So, in all sincerity, your "shortest version" definition really falls short for me to begin with. But, just for a short 'discussion sake answer', can you back your "short version" def. with a scripture for me? BTW I do have 'Bible Dictionary definitions' of Gehenna/hades/tartaroo.

2. And, moving on with your thinking, as for "Jesus being God". The trinity was argued over for 400 years before being settled, by a 'nominal church' who was in the first step of leading the whole world into the 'dark ages' (including spiritually). So, just to let you know where I stand on that whole issue, since you brought it up. I believe that when man was created, and for the next 4,000 years we had 'the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit'. All three of which existed as 'spirit'. A point which is still true according to the NT.

JOH 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

As you can see, spirit isn't even capitalized, and translators got 'that' right in this verse IMO. But when triune God wanted to create a man after the likeness of His spirit image, He did so 4000 years before "THE WORD became flesh and dwelt among us" as Jesus. But, 'The Word' had a problem before becoming 'a man "in the likeness of sinful flesh'." (Rom 8:3)

PHI 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he WAS in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

So, in your opinion, what did 'the Word', which was 'after the likeness of God' (IMO), empty himself of, before He became Christ Jesus 'the MAN' made "in the likeness of sinful flesh"?

3. "Jesus himself" wasn't "without sin"...your assumption then for having a get out of ETERNAL HELL privilege. Unless you know of a scripture to support such a view, I am of the view that He suffered everything I should have that I might have all of his 'IMPUTED' righteousness to enter into life in the ages to come...as well as in this age. My scriptural support is;

2CO 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

So, if Jesus paid 'the debt' for everybody IMO it can not be 'eternal separation from God', because Jesus never paid that price after 'becoming sin'. Also, 'Being righteous' wasn't the price he paid. But, 'becoming righteousness fulfilled' was the 'price He paid' to obtain the position of BEING the perfect sacrifice.

IOW, Jesus wasn't born the 'perfect sacrifice', he was born sinless, but he 'became 'perfect' by what he 'suffered'...a process which wasn't finished until His perfected obedience unto death....on the cross.

HEB 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

A 'suffering' process which finishes up my answer to #2. 'Jesus is God', above; A 'suffering process' where the Word emptied himself as equality with God, to become and live as a man in sinful flesh, but who, after obedience and suffering unto perfection and death, once again ascended unto the authority AS GOD again;

PHI 2:8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 THEREFORE God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

I'm going to assume, that "Jesus is God" POV from me, also falls into the category of...how did you say it; "I think your theology on this is new to some of us.."?

OK, I'm stopping because this is way to long for answering one paragraph of your post. Thoughts? Even if your thoughts are this is too much to even mess with. Just let me know.

 

[Major1]

It is actually a fallacious hermeneutic to determine the meaning of a word in Scripture solely by way of its root meaning. What is much more important is to gain an understanding of the way it was commonly used both in Scripture and, if possible, outside of it, too. In every language, words undergo change. What they meant originally may in time become far removed from how the word is used perhaps only a decade or two later. The English language is a prime example and I'm sure you can think of many words that have changed profoundly in their meaning over a relatively short time. I certainly can. Trying, then, to restrict the meaning of "aionios" to its root meaning is inappropriate because it quite ignores the evolving nature of language.

As Major1 has pointed out, confining the term "aionios" to "age lasting or pertaining to an age" creates problems when that word is used in Scripture to describe the everlasting nature of God. This is a perfect example of why your fallacious hermeneutic is problematic and flawed. Clearly, the Bible does not use "aionios" only to mean "age lasting or pertaining to an age"; for God is not in His "aionios" existence confined to an age of time.



It only has this confusing quality when you are trying to impose your annihilationist ideas on Scripture and inappropriately confine the meaning of certain words to their root.



If you had read this thread carefully, you would already have your answer. The issue isn't how often the Bible uses the terms "dead" or "destruction" in connection with the eternal fate of the unrepentant wicked but what one understands those words to mean. As has been pointed out now many times in this thread, "dead" and "destruction" do not mean "annihilation" in the Bible. These words have a wide spectrum of meaning and in connection with the fate of the wicked in the afterlife these terms are better understood to mean "ruination" or "utter loss of well-being" than "annihilation."



Not hardly. This thread completely refutes your assertion here. There is very good reason to hold to the classic view of ECT. If there is any willful ignorance, it seems to me much more evident on your side of the debate.



Asked and answered. Repeatedly. In this thread. Your bald (and totally false) assertion here does not advance your view or diminish ours one iota.



Ah. When all else fails resort to ad hominem.



Strawman. Nice try, though.



*Sigh* Rant much? Venting does not constitute a good argument and the strength of your emotion doesn't prove the rightness of your claims.



Well, we have to take your word for this, don't we? I could say the same about every annihilationist I've faced in real life.



And more ad hominem. The sound of a dying argument...

Selah.

Well said!!!