The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

mmksparbud

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I've been told that I only believe this way because my church does not believe in ECT--I've said it before, if they believed in ECT I would leave. I was away from God for many years when I came back, I restudied things, and this was at the top of my list, for from a kid, I did not see God as enforcing ECT. Didn't make sense with a new earth.
 
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Hillsage

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why should I when I have repeatedly told you that the word became is not the problem with your argument?
Oh, I disagree. 'Everything' is the problem with his argument. And as for his; 'the word became'???? Well, "And the Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us." I guess that verse just proved that Jesus never had a human spirit or soul, according to the logic of 'Butch'. But unfortunately scripture just puts a big hole in that picture.

MAT 26:38 Then he/JESUS said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me."

Gee, wonder why Jesus didn't say 'I'm sorrowful' since he was "a living soul" if ever anyone was? Probably because his soul, like ours, is (mind, will, emotion) and "sorrowful" is an emotion. IOW, scripture again makes sense to me and our understanding of triune man.

LUK 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Gee wonder why Jesus would "commit his spirit" back to God and not his sinless body too? Probably because it was Jesus' spirit which was conceived by the Holy Spirit. And it is the 'spirit of man' which is the only 'triune part' made in the image of God to begin with. That, and the fact that Jesus' spirit had to go preach to the spirits of men who disobeyed in the days of Noah. Oh wait, Butch says there's no verse saying men are spirits. :doh: Like I always say; "Oh consistency thou art a jewel to be sought for." And Butch is very consistent....sadly though, he's consistently wrong, as scripture proves AGAIN.

Whoa, just checked the thread before posting. And now all the ECT believers think that all we've been talking about is ECT, not even realizing this is spirit, soul, body which is absolutely and totally another doctrine which they are all apparently all as clueless as Butch since they agree with him. Like I said earlier bro, good luck 'reasoning' with them. I'm tired.
 
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Butch5

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Oh, I disagree. 'Everything' is the problem with his argument. And as for his; 'the word became'???? Well, "And the Word BECAME flesh and dwelt among us." I guess that verse just proved that Jesus never had a human spirit or soul, according to the logic of 'Butch'. But unfortunately scripture just puts a big hole in that picture.

MAT 26:38 Then he/JESUS said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me."

Gee, wonder why Jesus didn't say 'I'm sorrowful' since he was "a living soul" if ever anyone was? Probably because his soul, like ours, is (mind, will, emotion) and "sorrowful" is an emotion. IOW, scripture again makes sense to me and our understanding of triune man.

LUK 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Gee wonder why Jesus would "commit his spirit" back to God and not his sinless body too? Probably because it was Jesus' spirit which was conceived by the Holy Spirit. And it is the 'spirit of man' which is the only 'triune part' made in the image of God to begin with. That, and the fact that Jesus' spirit had to go preach to the spirits of men who disobeyed in the days of Noah. Oh wait, Butch says there's no verse saying men are spirits. :doh: Like I always say; "Oh consistency thou art a jewel to be sought for." And Butch is very consistent....sadly though, he's consistently wrong, as scripture proves AGAIN.

Whoa, just checked the thread before posting. And now all the ECT believers think that all we've been talking about is ECT, not even realizing this is spirit, soul, body is absolutely and totally another doctrine which they are all apparently all as clueless as Butch since they agree with him. Like I said earlier bro, good luck 'reasoning' with them. I'm tired.

Still waiting for the passage that says man is a spirit...

It's funny, I'm wrong yet you're arguing against Scripture.
 
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I agree. Here's a link you might enjoy.

http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Hell.html

Thank you. While I agree in Conditional Immortality, I am just not convinced of your position on the soul, my friend. I have done a very extensive study on the soul, spirit, and the body; And I would like to do it again (from a fresh perspective in prayer some day). But God is not leading me into the direction you are pushing, though.

Anyways, God has a soul (all be it an uncreated and eternal soul). Also, there are the souls of those who were under the altar of God. Jesus and the apostles seen Moses and Elijah. If they were soul sleeping or not existing in some way, they wouldn't have been there. Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. Jesus said to thief on the cross that he would be with him that very day in paradise.

I believe the soul (without the body) would continue on for eternity as spirit if God did not destroy it. For there is nothing said that the angels are mortal in any way. Do not angels have souls (i.e. a mind, will, and emotions)? Will there be a resurrection or some special event so as to keep good angels from dying or perishing?

God prevented Adam and Eve from eating of the tree of life so as to prevent them from living PHYSICALLY on an immortal level. It is why Christ alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16) and not God the Father. The immortality spoken of that we receive is a physical one (While the wicked will perish physically).

But I really don't feel like debating this topic at this time, though.
I hope you understand.
And may God bless you.


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Butch5

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Thank you. While I agree in Conditional Immortality, I am just not convinced of your position on the soul, my friend. I have done a very extensive study on the soul, spirit, and the body; And I would like to do it again (from a fresh perspective in prayer some day). But God is not leading me into the direction you are pushing, though.

Anyways, God has a soul. There are the souls of those who were under the altar of God. Jesus and the apostles seen Moses and Elijah. If they were soul sleeping or not existing in some way, they wouldn't have been there. Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. Jesus said to thief on the cross that he would be with him that very day in paradise.

I believe the soul (without the body) would continue on as spirit if God did not destroy it. For there is nothing said that the angels are mortal in any way. Do not angels have souls (i.e. a mind, will, and emotions)? Will there be a resurrection or some special event so as to keep good angels from dying or perishing?

God prevented Adam and Eve from eating of the tree of life so as to prevent them from living PHYSICALLY on an immortal level. It is why Christ alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16) and not God the Father. The immortality spoken of that we receive is a physical one (While the wicked will perish).

But I really don't feel like debating this topic at this time, though.


...

If you listen to the videos/audios on that page they go into a lot detail. You can listen without any debate. You can listen to the arguments and see if they make sense to you. The passages you mentioned above are all addressed in those videos/audios. He address, Moses and Elijah, the souls under the alter, the thief on the cross, and the spirits in prison.
 
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If you listen to the videos/audios on that page they go into a lot detail. You can listen without any debate. You can listen to the arguments and see if they make sense to you. The passages you mentioned above are all addressed in those videos/audios. He address, Moses and Elijah, the souls under the alter, the thief on the cross, and the spirits in prison.

Maybe I will check it out when I re-do my study someday on the soul, spirit, and body again.
But I am confident in what I currently believe and do not feel it is necessary to seek out a different meaning.
Usually God tells me my theology is wrong when He confronts me with verses that appear to be in contradiction with one another.
I remember when I had no idea of the Kenosis. Back in the past, I remember I was really having a hard time trying to reconcile Jesus being 100% God and yet Jesus being like a man who was limited in Omniscience (i.e. To know all things). But it all worked out in the end after studying Scripture of course.


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Also, it is pretty convincing to me that Jesus pre-existed as the Eternal Word and then was made flesh as support that souls/spirits exist outside of having a human body. For I believe Jesus has awareness as God when He went to the heart of the Earth; For Jesus told the thief on the cross that He would be with Him in paradise that very day. For God's soul is not controlled to confines of death. God exists in the spirit world. Yet, the Word took on a fleshy body. Jesus was just as much of a human as you and I. He was born into this world physically. He could grow tired, and bleed. If Jesus did not meet the criteria of being a man or human like us, He could not be our substitute so to pay for our sins within His body.

So I believe that is yet another piece of evidence for the case for man's soul existing or continuing on as spirit after his physical body dies.


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Butch5

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Also, it is pretty convincing to me that Jesus pre-existed as the Eternal Word and then was made flesh as support that souls/spirits exist outside of having a human body. For I believe Jesus has awareness as God when He went to the heart of the Earth; For Jesus told the thief on the cross that He would be with Him in paradise that very day. For God's soul is not controlled to confines of death. God exists in the spirit world. Yet, the Word took on a fleshy body. Jesus was just as much of a human as you and I. He was born into this world physically. He could grow tired, and bleed. If Jesus did not meet the criteria of being a man or human like us, He could not be our substitute so to pay for our sins within His body.

So I believe that is yet another piece of evidence for the case for man's soul existing or continuing on as spirit after his physical body dies.


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Well, I could address these, but as you said you don't want to debate it. All of this is addressed in those videos/audios. They show how all of these issues can be understood in a way that accords with what I have said. As a teaser I'll leave you with the thief on the cross. The comma is in the wrong place. If you place the comma after today it changes the meaning of the statement. There was no punctuation in the Greek texts, the translators have added it. If you move the comma it reads.

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)
 
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Well, I could address these, but as you said you don't want to debate it. All of this is addressed in those videos/audios. They show how all of these issues can be understood in a way that accords with what I have said. As a teaser I'll leave you with the thief on the cross. The comma is in the wrong place. If you place the comma after today it changes the meaning of the statement. There was no punctuation in the Greek texts, the translators have added it. If you move the comma it reads.

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

Yes, I have heard of the comma moving explanation on Luke 23:43 before. If this was the only verse, then that would be another matter. But there are just too many others that are too hard to ignore.


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Butch5

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Yes, I have heard of the comma moving explanation on Luke 23:43 before. If this was the only verse, then that would be another matter. But there are just too many others that are too hard to ignore.


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Ok! My point is that the same can be done for the rest. In the end all of the passages can be explained in a way that doesn't require one to believe in an immortal soul. None of the passages get ignored. I don't ignore anything. All of the passages are reconciled.
 
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aiki

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Believe me know what a fallacy is. This thread is full of them. I posted the fallacy. You didn't give a comprehensive answer.

Well, if you do understand what constitutes a logical fallacy (as opposed to an unappreciated approach to discussion), you don't demonstrate that understanding very well.

I gave a comprehensive - though not exhaustive - answer. I offered many verses from both the Old and New Testaments that plainly indicate the idea of an immaterial soul that survives the death of the physical body.

What you gave was a list of passages some with questions and some with a line or two of commentary. That's not comprehensive.

It's not an exhaustive response. That is, I didn't say all that I could have said about each reference or passage that I offered. But what I did say was certainly sufficient to demonstrate that the Bible does indeed teach the existence of an immaterial soul that survives the death of the physical body.

As I said, you only need one passage to prove me wrong. So, why not take your strongest evidence and expound on it and show how it makes your case.

As I already said, start at the top and make your way down. Each of the passages I offered establishes the existence of an immaterial human soul. I explained them as much as I think at this point is necessary. This is the nice thing about the passages I referenced: they all are pretty plain in regards to what they indicate about the immaterial human soul. To the honest, straightforward reader, it is quite evident that they support/teach the idea of an immaterial human soul.

Selah.
 
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Ok! My point is that the same can be done for the rest. In the end all of the passages can be explained in a way that doesn't require one to believe in an immortal soul. None of the passages get ignored. I don't ignore anything. All of the passages are reconciled.

I imagine that they are reconciled, but the key question is: Does the explanation appear to go beyond what the text says plainly or does it really seem like it fits in there? I say this because even my own interpretation on Revelation 20:10 is two fold (Meaning, I would like to believe that the devil and his minions will be erased from existence within a short time after the Judgment, but I also have to consider that they may be in there a lot longer, too (i.e. for the ages of ages). Why? Because the text sounds like it says that. In any event, I will try and listen to one of them (with my free time tomorrow).


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As for those who believe in Eternal Concious Torment:

I want you to read the following verse,



Now, imagine God torturing the wicked for all eternity (as you read this verse).
Doesn't sound right, now does it?


...
 
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Gabriel Anton

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Yes, "death" means death. When something dies it is not alive anymore....

Peace be with you.

Not according to God.

Matthew C22
31 And concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you[r] by God, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.

The verses above, Jesus is saying Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are Alive and Not dead and God is still their God. Jesus is also saying that the dead are resurrected. The dead can be any dead although Jesus cites the verse concering the 3 Patriarchs. Jesus did not say, "concerning the resurrection of the righteous dead", instead Jesus said, "concerning the resurrection of the dead." Dead means all the dead who have died.

The verses below state that these 3 Patriachs died and were gathered to their people. These 3 Patriarchs according to Jesus although dead and buried are Alive and that God is still their God.

Genesis C25
Death of Abraham. 7 The whole span of Abraham’s life was one hundred and seventy-five years. 8 Then he breathed his last, dying at a ripe old age, grown old after a full life; and he was gathered to his people. 9 His sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron, son of Zohar the Hittite, which faces Mamre, 10 the field that Abraham had bought from the Hittites; there he was buried next to his wife Sarah. 11 After the death of Abraham, God blessed his son Isaac, who lived near Beer-lahai-roi.

Genesis C35
27 Jacob went home to his father Isaac at Mamre, in Kiriath-arba (now Hebron), where Abraham and Isaac had resided. 28 The length of Isaac’s life was one hundred and eighty years; 29 then he breathed his last. He died as an old man and was gathered to his people. After a full life, his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Genesis C49
33 When Jacob had finished giving these instructions to his sons, he drew his feet into the bed, breathed his last, and was gathered to his people.

Genesis C50
14 After Joseph had buried his father he returned to Egypt, together with his brothers and all who had gone up with him for the burial of his father.
15 [b]Now that their father was dead, Joseph’s brothers became fearful and thought, “Suppose Joseph has been nursing a grudge against us and now most certainly will pay us back in full for all the wrong we did him!” 16 So they sent to Joseph and said: “Before your father died, he gave us these instructions:

Based on these words of Jesus, one can assume that the dead are raised after the death of the body. One can assume that the soul unsheathes from the dead body because the soul is invisible to the mortal eye. That is why Jesus says that the dead are resurrected and that they are Alive.

Now where the soul is sent after the death of the body depends on what fate the soul chose for himself or herself while in the body during his or her sojourn on Earth.

God bless you.
 
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razzelflabben

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I didn't say they weren't different, I said they're done away with anyway so I don't care what they are called. And last time I looked, I'm pretty sure I'm not God. To me that is a rebuttal which you say isn't.
so let me ask you yet again...what passage says that hell/lake of fire is done away with? I know the scripture that says death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire, but nothing about the lake of fire being done away with...please provide that scripture rather than just making the claim.
This is what I mean---I've explained several times will one more time---I never said a false prophet is not human, I said in Re 20:10 it says THE FALSE PROPHET---singular--not plural!!!!! Please do not ask that question again, just refer back to this.
the point I have repeatedly been making is that no matter how you slice it, this passage says at least one human being will be tormented forever and ever. You just can't get around it unless you can present a scripture that says that a false prophet is not human which so far no one has.


This is for the whole planet!!! Like it or not! It is a new earth and a new heavens---everything is remade it is a rebuttal and quite saying it isn't. That is what scripture says!!!
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
if you really and truly think this is a rebuttal of what I have said, then let me rephrase what I am saying.

This passage says nothing at all about hell...so, where in scripture does it say that hell was 1. recreated, or 2. when it was originally created.

See, as I said, scripture talks about hades and the bosom of Abraham but nothing at all about when it was created. now, many people infer when it was created as you are doing in an attempt to justify their position on the matter but as I have said, I need scripture. My position on the matter is this, scripture does NOT tell us when hell was created or if it is somehow recreated as the heavens and earth will be. therefore we canNOT assume what is not there. That means we don't have all the answers, but that is something I am personally comfortable with.
 
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razzelflabben

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There are only 3 verses in my opinion that suggest ECT (and one verse that suggests burning in hell-fire) but even these verses do not make it a slam dunk in my opinion (Nor are there that many of these kinds of verses, either). Matthew 25:46 appears at first glance to teach eternal torment, but if we were to read the TYPE of punishment that is eternal here, by lookng at 2 Thessalonians 1:9, things become a little clearer. Then there is Luke 16:19-31. Sure sounds like the rich-man is being tortured. But is he? Does the story describe him screaming and that his flesh is sizzling? No. The rich-man is simply tormented by the heat of the flame in front of him in the great gulf between him and Abraham. What about Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 20:10? Well, the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible. For we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15. The word "forever" is also translated from the word "age", too. Revelation 14:11 is talking about those who worship the beast as not having rest while on the Earth. While Revelation 20:10 is talking about how the devil, and his two demonic minions will be tormented day and night (a set time) for the purpose of the ages of ages (i.e. they are tormented day and night because they tormented mankind for ages and ages). But even if you wanted to make Revelation 20:10 defend eternal torment, it still does not work because these are demons being tormented here and not humans.

In other words, I just took down ECT in one short paragraph. But if you were to try and do the same with Conditional Immortality, you will be spending a long time over the many verses that defends it.


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I realize you are ignoring me but the truth of the matter is that the only way this does what you claim is in the confines of your own mind. In fact, it missing most of what you have been shown in scripture about ECT. Hard to take you seriously when you ignore the arguments against your opinions .
 
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Me too. I have an eye problem but my Drs work for the govt. and I couldn't get an appointment until next week.

I am able to use the VA here in America but just as you said, it takes a long time to get an appointment. I have started using an outside Dr. in the past 10 years and only use the VA for prescriptions. That has worked real well for me.
 
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razzelflabben

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As for those who believe in Eternal Concious Torment:

I want you to read the following verse,



Now, imagine God torturing the wicked for all eternity (as you read this verse).
Doesn't sound right, now does it?


...
how is a just God questioning His goodness?
 
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so let me ask you yet again...what passage says that hell/lake of fire is done away with? I know the scripture that says death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire, but nothing about the lake of fire being done away with...please provide that scripture rather than just making the claim. the point I have repeatedly been making is that no matter how you slice it, this passage says at least one human being will be tormented forever and ever. You just can't get around it unless you can present a scripture that says that a false prophet is not human which so far no one has. if you really and truly think this is a rebuttal of what I have said, then let me rephrase what I am saying.

This passage says nothing at all about hell...so, where in scripture does it say that hell was 1. recreated, or 2. when it was originally created.

See, as I said, scripture talks about hades and the bosom of Abraham but nothing at all about when it was created. now, many people infer when it was created as you are doing in an attempt to justify their position on the matter but as I have said, I need scripture. My position on the matter is this, scripture does NOT tell us when hell was created or if it is somehow recreated as the heavens and earth will be. therefore we canNOT assume what is not there. That means we don't have all the answers, but that is something I am personally comfortable with.

Well said my brother. Without Scripture in spiritual matters, everything is then just an opinion. As you have seen, we can talk and talk and talk about a subject but it is only talk unless it can be verified by the Scriptures.

Now then, when was hell created????

I have no clue and neither does anyone else because the Bible does not tell us WHEN or WHERE. It does tell us WHO however.

Matthew25:41.........
"Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Strictly my own thinking would be that hell must have been created shortly after Satan and his followers rebelled against God ages ago.
 
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