• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,685
7,908
...
✟1,321,106.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

The tormenting does not take place after they die. The tormenting takes place during the time while they are worshiping the beast. For they couldn't sleep because they were all covered in painful boils (See Revelation 16:2).

But what about the words "forever"?

Well, elsewhere in the Bible, we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15.

For it says,

"For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;" (Philemon 1:15 KJV).

This is talking about Onesimus. Here is what it says in the New Living Translation,

15 "It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever.
16 He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord."
(Philemon 1:15-16 NLT).

In other words, Onesimus did not return to his master for all eternity here upon this Earth. Onesimus is not still alive. He is not an immortal or anything of that nature. He was mortal and he died. So to assume that the word "forever" and it's related words always means forever does not work. Meaning, one has to re-examine what they believe the word "forever" means based on the context.

...
 
Last edited:
Reactions: mmksparbud
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,503
64
Ohio
✟129,793.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
still avoiding the passages presented I see....
 
Upvote 0

Luke17:37

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2016
1,668
550
United States
✟19,666.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
The phrase, "forever and ever" is a superlative. It doen's mean eternity.

You used a nice $2 word there, but you dispute the clear meaning of the Biblical text.

Here's another one:

Matthew 25:41, 46
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

And another:

Revelation 14:9-11
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
 
Upvote 0

Luke17:37

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2016
1,668
550
United States
✟19,666.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single

Read my latest post.

The painful boil is just the start of their pain, which will not end. Do you believe in eternal life with Jesus? You have no problem believing that Christians will live with Jesus forever and ever, I imagine. Yet you have a hard time believing that God is that serious about punishing sin.

Onesimus is a brother in Christ forever to Philemon. They live in the presence of God, although their bodies are buried in the ground still. (Yet they will rise at the resurrection of the dead in Christ, when He comes.)

May God open your eyes.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,976
780
63
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟336,535.00
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married

Elephant Hurling is a logical fallacy. Since you only need one passage of Scripture to show I'm wrong please pick your strongest evidence and I'll address it. Then we can move down the list.

http://www.astorehouseofknowledge.info/w/Elephant_hurling
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,685
7,908
...
✟1,321,106.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Read my latest post. May God open your eyes.

I updated my post.
Oh, and may God open your eyes, as well.
And may His love shine upon you greatly.


...
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,976
780
63
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟336,535.00
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married

Despite what you find in dictionaries the word cannot mean eternal. It is used all over Scripture for periods of time that ended. There are parts of the Mosaic Law that are said to be forever, however, Jesus and Paul both said the Law ended. How can a translator translate a passage and say it is forever when Jesus and Paul both said it ended?
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,503
64
Ohio
✟129,793.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
now, wait just one moment...the passage in Rev. 20:14 was presented to the poster who said that hell would be remade with the new heaven and new earth...iow's done away with when the new heaven and new earth were destroyed. As I showed in this passage that is not what the passage says, what it says is that death and hades/bosom of Abraham are thrown into the lake of fire. Now, where it is true that some people equate hell to hades/bosom of Abraham, that is not consistent with the cultural understanding of the day nor the translation issues. So what we have is death and the waiting area (so to speak) are thrown into the lake of fire...now, we need to reconcile that against Rev. 20:10 so that our context is in tack...notice that it says that 1. they are caste into the lake of fire, aka hell not the bosom or abraham/hades. But even if we want to ignore that, death and hades/bosom of Abraham are caste into the lake of fire just 4 verses down...so even if we want to ignore literary rules we still see that the lake of fire or hell is holding the beast (satan) and the false prophets...now quick side note, I pointed out several times over that the false prophets in scripture are always human beings so this passage clearly tells us by adding false prophets that human beings will inhabit the lake of fire....now, go on, what does it say? where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Now I know some of you all refuse to accept the wording here but you have been shown and have not refuted that this means eternal when we look at translational understanding of the text.

So there are three huge, glaring things that were brought out that you need a rebuttal for but refuse to provide,
1. where in scripture does it say that hades/bosom of Abraham are the same thing as the hell/lake of fire they are thrown into.
2. where in scripture do we ever see a false prophet that is NOT human
and
3. how when the word used here differs from the word meaning season or age or period of time does it mean season or age or period of time when the writer repeats the word to emphasis the meaning of longer than season, age, period of time. IOW's the construct of the lang. the passage was written in emphasises the word used for forever to make sure that the reader understands that this is a longer period of time than just a season or age or period of time, but rather to clarify for us that the meaning intended is eternal.

I look forward to your rebuttal of these three issues with your claims, numbering them might help us follow what you want to argue against.
 
Upvote 0

Luke17:37

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2016
1,668
550
United States
✟19,666.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single

Matthew 5:17-18
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,503
64
Ohio
✟129,793.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That's sister!!
And if God says they are punished according to their works, then that is what will be. Evil works are sins.
that is kind of what he said, just in a funny or somewhat confusing way...notice he says that we are condemned already, that is based on our works...Christ alone can change that....
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,503
64
Ohio
✟129,793.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I don't know what you studied. However, I have shown repeatedly what I've stated.
we all know what you have stated and it doesn't make sense with the passages you were repeatedly asked to refute but refuse to. actually several of us have, but apparently you aren't interested enough to read them and comment on them. And no, your fondness for the word became does nothing at all to question man having three parts.
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,503
64
Ohio
✟129,793.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The phrase, "forever and ever" is a superlative. It doen's mean eternity.
actually, in the Greek repeating the word gives emphasis or magnifies the meaning of the word...so forever and ever means time and time again, most of the time the understanding of time and time again is forever...that is just how the Greek works. You know, common literary rules of comprehension.
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,976
780
63
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟336,535.00
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married

Jesus came to fulfill the Law. Did He do that?
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,503
64
Ohio
✟129,793.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The tormenting does not take place after they die. The tormenting takes place during the time while they are worshiping the beast. For they couldn't sleep because they were all covered in painful boils (See Revelation 16:2).

...
that clearly says torment on earth whereas the passage in question clearly states torment in the lake of fire aka hell
 
Reactions: Luke17:37
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,976
780
63
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟336,535.00
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married

I'm quite aware of how it works. Thanks for proving my point. You said, "most of the time the understanding of time and time again is forever." Just because that's how it's understood doesn't mean it correct.
 
Upvote 0

razzelflabben

Contributor
Nov 8, 2003
25,818
2,503
64
Ohio
✟129,793.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
actually as you have been shown repeatedly there are two different words used both of which are being translated eternal when the meaning of the words does not support this but why bother with what scripture really says, right?
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,685
7,908
...
✟1,321,106.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Scriptures say the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

Jesus fulfilled the Law portion of the Law and the Prophets (because the temple veil was torn from top to bottom), but the Prophets part (prophecy) of the Law has yet to be fulfilled.


...
 
Upvote 0