The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Major1]

There is not passage that says man is "not" a body, soul, and spirit. There is also no verse that says he is. However, Moses gives us an explanation of how God created man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Note that man was created from the dust of the ground. That is what he is. Then God breathed His breath or spirit of life into the man and the man "became" a living soul. The word became means to come into being. The man was not a living soul prior to his receiving the breath or spirit of life from God. If one is to claim that man is anything more than this one must prove it from Scripture.

Moses also recorded God's words to Adam.

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

How much clearer could it be? God said to Adam, 'you are dust.' He didn't say, you are spirit living in flesh body. He didn't say you are composed of three parts. He said, 'you are dust.' It's clear in the passage that the dust body was created before the man received the spirit or breath of life from God and became a living soul.

This is what these guys are rejecting.

Honestly, I knew there was no such verse and since there is no Bible Scripture to validate your opinion, then I must tell you that it is simply your opinion my brother and nothing more. You see, for a thesis on a Bible teaching to be true and to be acceptable as such, it must be found in the Bible or it remains an opinion.

However, I have given you at least 2 Scriptures which validate the Bible which says man is a body, spirit and a soul.
I am curious why you can not see the body, soul and spirit in those verses.

I wouldn't expect you to read all of the posts, maybe just a few of mine since you replied to my post.



Let me ask you, what is water made of? How many elements does it consist of.

We are not discussing water my friend. Honestly I have no clue and really do not care.

 

[Major1]

That's sister!!
And if God says they are punished according to their works, then that is what will be. Evil works are sins.

My apologies sister. I meant no harm.

Yes. Evil works are sin and that goes without saying. But it is not eveil works that gets a person to hell anymore than good works gets him to heaven.

Now that is Bible 101 sister and it can not be changed or altered in any way.

The lost unsaved wicked sinner will go to the lake of fire because he did not come to Christ in the free pardone of sin.

Is John 3:16 true or is it false or can we make it say what we want it to say?...........
" For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish (hell)but have everlasting life. (Heaven)".

 

[Major1]

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Bottom line to me is this---everything is caste into the lake of fire---hell and death. This is the 2nd death. It doesn't say this is the 2nd eternal life burning in hell. This is where I get bogged down. I will quote a verse that answers the question but the question goes on as thou it wasn't answered. You don't want to believe this--hell and death are done away with---There will be no more death, no more hell. Over and done. No more. You can go on about this or that , doesn't matter. Hell is done away with.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
This is not plural, the devil, the false prophet.

O but it does say exactly that my sister. Rev. 20:10 tells us that the devil, A/C and false prophet are cast into the "Lake of fire". The context then is a PLACE...."The lake of Fire".

Now look at and read Rev. 20:14.......
"And death and hell were cast into "THE LAKE OF FIRE", THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH".

The unsaved are cast in to the same PLACE as is found the devil. A/C and false prophet. This is eternal separation in torments.

 

[mmksparbud]

My apologies sister. I meant no harm.

Yes. Evil works are sin and that goes without saying. But it is not eveil works that gets a person to hell anymore than good works gets him to heaven.

Now that is Bible 101 sister and it can not be changed or altered in any way.

The lost unsaved wicked sinner will go to the lake of fire because he did not come to Christ in the free pardone of sin.

Is John 3:16 true or is it false or can we make it say what we want it to say?...........
" For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish (hell)but have everlasting life. (Heaven)".

"The lost unsaved wicked sinner will go to the lake of fire because he did not come to Christ in the free pardone of sin."

It is what gets you there---the works, however, is what you will be punished for according to scripture.

Should not perish----period. As in the opposite of life---death, destroyed---eternal death, not eternal life burning---

 

[AngelOf Laodicea]

Death is thrown in the lake of fire.
Death will be no more.

If the concept of death is no more, how can people in the lake of fire die?

The bible refers to death as rest. "And they will have no rest day or night"

The lake of fire makes much more sense when reading Psalm 5:5-6; 11:5, and Hosea 9:15

 

[aiki]

Note that man was created from the dust of the ground. That is what he is. Then God breathed His breath or spirit of life into the man and the man "became" a living soul. The word became means to come into being. The man was not a living soul prior to his receiving the breath or spirit of life from God. If one is to claim that man is anything more than this one must prove it from Scripture.

Easily done.

Revelation 6:9-10 (NKJV)
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

If humans have no immortal soul that survives death, how do the souls of these Christian martyrs come to be in heaven crying out to God before the resurrection of the dead at Christ's return?

Luke 20:37-38 (NKJV)
37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."

But Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob are all dead. This means either that God is not the God of these men (which Scripture contradicts flatly) who are dead, or that these men are in some sense still alive. But for these men to be alive without their physical bodies, which is what this passage plainly implies, they would have to have an immaterial nature that survives the death of their physical body (an immortal soul).

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (NKJV)
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

If there is no immortal soul that exists beyond the death of the physical body, how can the Lord bring with him those who sleep? He doesn't resurrect the dead until verse 16 but he is bringing people with him in verse 14. What's going on here? The obvious explanation is that Jesus is bringing the departed souls of the righteous dead with him to be reunited with their bodies in the resurrection. No other explanation makes sense.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NKJV)
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Paul is here clearly indicating that it is possible to be absent from one's physical body and still exist (in the presence of the Lord). But how could this be possible without an immaterial nature that survives physical death? How can one be absent from one's body and yet present with the Lord if the soul does not survive the death of the body?

What does the Bible teach about the human soul?

1. It is distinct from the physical body, yet intimately connected to it and dwelling within the body. (Ps. 31:9; 131:2; Isa. 10:18; 26;9; Matt. 10:28)
2. It experiences and expresses sorrow, bitterness, joy, love, anguish, vexation, discouragement, etc. (Gen. 34:3; 42:21; Nu. 21:4; Deut. 6:4, 5; Ju. 16:16; Job 3:20; Ps. 35:9)
3. It is capable of choosing and remembering. (Job. 7:15; La. 3:20)
4. It may, as a unique, personal entity depart, and return to, the physical body that housed it. (Gen. 35:18; 1Ki. 17:21, 22)
5. As a term, used interchangeably in Scripture with the term "spirit." (Isa. 26:9)

Genesis 2:7 (NKJV)
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Ron Rhodes observes,

"It is true that in the Old Testament, the Hebrew word for soul (nephesh) can be used in reference to a living being. Genesis 2:7 is clearly an example of this. But because the word can be used in this sense does not mean that it is limited to this sense, or that man does not have an immaterial nature...Indeed, Genesis 2:7 is telling us what man is (a living being), not what he is not. In other words, while Genesis 2:7 affirms that man is a living being, it does not deny in any way that man has an immaterial nature." ("Reasoning from the Scriptures" by Ron Rhodes. pg. 308)

Genesis 35:18 (NKJV)
18 And so it was, as her (Rachel's) soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

1 Kings 17:21-22 (NKJV)
21 And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the Lord and said, "O Lord my God, I pray, let this child's soul come back to him."
22 Then the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived.

In both these passages the soul is not identified as merely an animating energy that came from God and is returned to Him. When Rachel dies in childbirth it is her soul that departs her body, not God's life-force. When Elijah calls upon God to revive the dead boy he asks, not for God to give the boy some of His divine life-energy, but specifically for the boy's soul to be returned to his body. It is "the soul of the child" that comes back to the child's dead body and causes its revival, not merely the animating breath of God.

Both passages also clearly differentiate between the soul and the body. In both passages the soul continues to exist beyond the decease of the body.

Matthew 17:1-3
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

How is the appearance of Moses and Elijah, who were dead for centuries before their appearance with Christ, possible? If there was only an animating energy that returned to God when they died rather than their unique, immaterial souls, how are they speaking with Jesus on the mountain? Apparently, it is possible after physical death to exist as a distinct spiritual entity capable of speech and possessing a discernible form.

Luke 23:46-47
46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.' "Having said this, He breathed His last.
47 So when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God, saying, "Certainly this was a righteous Man!"

The word "spirit" here is translated from the Greek word "pneuma," which has a variety of meanings in Scripture: wind, breath, life-spirit, soul, the spirit as part of the human personality, the spirit of God, the spirit of Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Context rules out most of these meanings. It doesn't make sense for Jesus to commend his "wind" or "breath" to the Father. It doesn't make any better sense for Jesus to be committing "the spirit of God" or the "Holy Spirit" to the Father. From a plain reading of the passage it is clear Jesus is committing his immaterial human soul or spirit to the Father.

Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

How could being dead and thus non-existent be "gain" to Paul? Clearly, he did not think the "gain" of which he was speaking was the extinction of his soul with the death of his body, but the departure of his soul from his body to be with Christ. And Paul is not speaking here of a future resurrection. The aorist infinitive ("to live") is linked by a single article with a present infinitive ("to be with Christ"). Thus the infinitives belong together.

"The single article ties the two infinitives together, so that the actions depicted by the two infinitives are to be considered two aspects of the same thing, or two sides of the same coin." - (Reasoning from the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses, Ron Rhodes, pg. 317.)

And so on.

Selah.

 

[Butch5]

Honestly, I knew there was no such verse and since there is no Bible Scripture to validate your opinion, then I must tell you that it is simply your opinion my brother and nothing more. You see, for a thesis on a Bible teaching to be true and to be acceptable as such, it must be found in the Bible or it remains an opinion.

However, I have given you at least 2 Scriptures which validate the Bible which says man is a body, spirit and a soul.
I am curious why you can not see the body, soul and spirit in those verses.

We are not discussing water my friend. Honestly I have no clue and really do not care.

You seemed to have overlooked the part of my statement that says there is also no passage that says man consists of three parts. So, you proposal is nothing more than your opinion. On the other hand, what I said is stated plainly in Scripture so it is not my opinion. It is Scripture.

The two passages you post have been addressed already. Neither of them says that man consists of three parts. That idea is imposed on the text. As I have already pointed out it is the logical fallacy of Begging the Question or Circular Reasoning.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html

 

[Major1]

You seemed to have overlooked the part of my statement that says there is also no passage that says man consists of three parts. So, you proposal is nothing more than your opinion. On the other hand, what I said is stated plainly in Scripture so it is not my opinion. It is Scripture.

The two passages you post have been addressed already. Neither of them says that man consists of three parts. That idea is imposed on the text. As I have already pointed out it is the logical fallacy of Begging the Question or Circular Reasoning.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html

GOD FORMED THE BODY:

Genesis 2: 7a -- "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground ...".

The Hebrew word for "formed" is yatsar which means "to fashion out of something that is already in existence." God formed man out of a substance which already existed, which was dust. The word "man" is adam which means "red earth". Our bodies are composed of the same elements that are in the dust of the earth.

GOD MADE THE SOUL:

Now let's examine the word "soul" which is the Hebrew word "nepesh". The soul in a man is that which gives the body its life, its vitality. Now let's look at Genesis 2: 7 again with particular attention to the second part of the verse.

Genesis 2: 7 -- And the Lord God formed man [man's body] of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The phrase "breathed into his nostrils" is the figure of speech condescension where God attributes human characteristics to Himself. When God put life into Adam, He MADE man a living SOUL. The word "made" in Hebrew is asah and means "a substance required of which the thing made consists." The soul is simply that which gives life to a person's body. The soul has nothing to do with whether you are a born again Christian or not. As long as a person breathes, he has a soul.

GOD MADE THE SPIRIT:

Genesis 1: 27 -- So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God had already formed and made man -- he already had a body and soul. So what was God doing here when He created man in His own image? What is the image of God?

John 4: 24a -- God is a Spirit: . . . .

God created within man spirit, His image. Man now became body, soul, and spirit. Now God had a companion. The spirit part of man makes it possible for God to talk to man and for man to communicate with God. This gave them fellowship. So now we know from Isaiah and Thessalonians, that man was formed, made, and created and that he was body, soul, and spirit. Whenever scientists talk about creating life, this is a misnomer. Man may rediscover, revamp, reorganize, etc., but man cannot create. He cannot bring something into existence which did not previously exist. Man must always start with some substance so he is NOT creating. Only God can create.
http://www.absolutebiblestudy.com/Basics/BODY_SOUL_SPIRIT.htm

Well then, I am left only to say that we will be in disagreement. Bless you in your life. Major out.

 

[Major1]

"The lost unsaved wicked sinner will go to the lake of fire because he did not come to Christ in the free pardone of sin."

It is what gets you there---the works, however, is what you will be punished for according to scripture.

Should not perish----period. As in the opposite of life---death, destroyed---eternal death, not eternal life burning---

With all due respect to you, I am sorry my sister but you have been given some wrong teaching.

Whenever you see Jesus use a word such as “perish” or “destroy,” the original word is “apollumi.” The Greek word “apollumi” means to “to lose, or to be lost.”

Now then, In Matt. 10:28-29......
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell".

So what does the Word of God actually say to us.........
A better translation would be “whoever believes in Him should not be lost.” We are all lost until God finds us. Those who die yet unbelieving will experience further “apollumi,” or being “lost” in the lake of fire, which is the second death of torments.

 

[razzelflabben]

I wouldn't expect you to read all of the posts, maybe just a few of mine since you replied to my post.



Let me ask you, what is water made of? How many elements does it consist of.

hum...so when scripture says that the "word" can separate the soul and the spirit what does that mean to you and your opinions?

 

[Butch5]

Easily done.

Revelation 6:9-10 (NKJV)
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

If humans have no immortal soul that survives death, how do the souls of these Christian martyrs come to be in heaven crying out to God before the resurrection of the dead at Christ's return?

Luke 20:37-38 (NKJV)
37 But even Moses showed in the

burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."

But Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob are all dead. This means either that God is not the God of these men (which Scripture contradicts flatly) who are dead, or that these men are in some sense still alive. But for these men to be alive without their physical bodies, which is what this passage plainly implies, they would have to have an immaterial nature that survives the death of their physical body (an immortal soul).

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (NKJV)
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive

and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

If there is no immortal soul that exists beyond the death of the physical body, how can the Lord bring with him those who sleep? He doesn't resurrect the dead until verse 16 but he is bringing people with him in verse 14. What's going on here? The obvious explanation is that Jesus is bringing the departed souls of the righteous dead with him to be reunited with their bodies in the resurrection. No other explanation makes sense.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NKJV)
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Paul is here clearly indicating that it is possible to be absent from one's physical body and still exist (in the presence of the Lord). But how could this be possible without an immaterial nature that survives physical death? How can one be absent from one's body and yet present with the Lord if the soul does not survive the death of the body?


What does the Bible teach about the human soul?

1. It is distinct from the physical body, yet intimately connected to it and dwelling within the body. (Ps. 31:9; 131:2; Isa. 10:18; 26;9; Matt. 10:28)
2. It experiences and expresses sorrow, bitterness, joy, love, anguish, vexation, discouragement, etc. (Gen. 34:3; 42:21; Nu. 21:4; Deut. 6:4, 5; Ju. 16:16; Job 3:20; Ps. 35:9)
3. It is capable of choosing and remembering. (Job. 7:15; La. 3:20)

4. It may, as a unique, personal entity depart, and return to, the physical body that housed it. (Gen. 35:18; 1Ki. 17:21, 22)
5. As a term, used interchangeably in Scripture with the term "spirit." (Isa. 26:9)

Genesis 2:7 (NKJV)
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Ron Rhodes observes,

"It is true that in the Old Testament, the Hebrew word for soul (nephesh) can be used in reference to a living being. Genesis 2:7 is clearly an example of this. But because the word can be used in this sense does not mean that it is limited to this sense, or that man does not have an immaterial nature...Indeed, Genesis 2:7 is telling us what man is (a living being), not what he is not. In other words, while Genesis 2:7 affirms that man is a living being, it does not deny in any way that man has an immaterial nature." ("Reasoning from the Scriptures" by Ron Rhodes. pg. 308)

Genesis 35:18 (NKJV)
18 And so it was, as her (Rachel's) soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

1 Kings 17:21-22 (NKJV)
21 And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the Lord and said, "O Lord my God, I pray, let this child's soul come back to him."
22 Then the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived.

In both these passages the soul is not identified as merely an animating energy that came from God and is returned to Him. When Rachel dies in childbirth it is her soul that departs her body, not God's life-force. When Elijah calls upon God to revive the dead boy he asks, not for God to give the boy some of His divine life-energy, but specifically for the boy's soul to be returned to his body. It is "the soul of the child" that comes back to the child's dead body and causes its revival, not merely the animating breath of God.

Both passages also clearly differentiate between the soul and the body. In both passages the soul continues to exist beyond the decease of the body.

Matthew 17:1-3
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

How is the appearance of Moses and Elijah, who were dead for centuries before their appearance with Christ, possible? If there was only an animating energy that returned to God when they died rather than their unique, immaterial souls, how are they speaking with Jesus on the mountain? Apparently, it is possible after physical death to exist as a distinct spiritual entity capable of speech and possessing a discernible form.

Luke 23:46-47
46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.' "Having said this, He breathed His last.
47 So when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God, saying, "Certainly this was a righteous Man!"

The word "spirit" here is translated from the Greek word "pneuma," which has a variety of meanings in Scripture: wind, breath, life-spirit, soul, the spirit as part of the human personality, the spirit of God, the spirit of Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Context rules out most of these meanings. It doesn't make sense for Jesus to commend his "wind" or "breath" to the Father. It doesn't make any better sense for Jesus to be committing "the spirit of God" or the "Holy Spirit" to the Father. From a plain reading of the passage it is clear Jesus is committing his immaterial human soul or spirit to the Father.

Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

How could being dead and thus non-existent be "gain" to Paul? Clearly, he did not think the "gain" of which he was speaking was the extinction of his soul with the death of his body, but the departure of his soul from his body to be with Christ. And Paul is not speaking here of a future resurrection. The aorist infinitive ("to live") is linked by a single article with a present infinitive ("to be with Christ"). Thus the infinitives belong together.

"The single article ties the two infinitives together, so that the actions depicted by the two infinitives are to be considered two aspects of the same thing, or two sides of the same coin." - (Reasoning from the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses, Ron Rhodes, pg. 317.)

And so on.

Elephant Hurling is a logical fallacy. Since you only need one passage of Scripture to show I'm wrong please pick your strongest evidence and I'll address it. Then we can move down the list.

http://www.astorehouseofknowledge.info/w/Elephant_hurling

 

[razzelflabben]

And this is the Straw Man fallacy you continue to propose. The question isn't what man has, it's what man is. There's a big difference between the two

by all means go on...and make sure that you point out the words in the passages given that would back up your claim from the standpoint of common literary rules for comprehension.

See, one of the problems you and a few others on this thread have is that you assume no one will change their mind if your arguments are convincing. That is false, plain and simple. I am more than willing to change my mind but you have to understand two things are necessary for bringing me to that point.
1. you need to show me wrong in scripture from the standpoint of using common literary tools and rules for comprehension because man's "wisdom" simply isn't enough when God says not to rely on man's wisdom but on God's.
2. I have done an indepth study of the topic as part of a bigger study. When I say study I mean I look at every single passage I can find that is related, cross reference it, look into translation issues, look at context, look at totality of scripture's context, test the conclusions, then retest the conclusion. I am here to have you all help me test the conclusions but instead of testing them you are just making veiled accusations against other posters and ignoring the real issue on the table by repeating yourself rather than offering rebuttals. If you have no real rebuttal to offer my only option is that the interpretation I offer is sound and therefore left unchallenged, thus passing the test. So, you can either continue to make false accusations and assumptions and show that the testing proves my understanding to be truth or...you can respond with a rebuttal that corresponds to what I have offered. BTW, just so you know, when I talk about study, I am talking about an average of 8-10 hours a day 5-7 days a week...we aren't talking here about reading some teachers notes or reading a couple of passages and calling it, we are talking about getting deep into the word of God. In fact, some people refuse to allow us to teach from our study because in their own words, "it is too deep for us." So, give it a go if you have the truth it should pass the test. What you need to address at this point is what words in the passages given tell you that it is what man "has" not what he is "given" and how that changes the meaning of the passages in question...you must however use common literary rules for comprehension not some circular logic of man.

 

[Butch5]

GOD FORMED THE BODY:

Genesis 2: 7a -- "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground ...".

The Hebrew word for "formed" is yatsar which means "to fashion out of something that is already in existence." God formed man out of a substance which already existed, which was dust. The word "man" is adam which means "red earth". Our bodies are composed of the same elements that are in the dust of the earth.

GOD MADE THE SOUL:

Now let's examine the word "soul" which is the Hebrew word "nepesh". The soul in a man is that which gives the body its life, its vitality. Now let's look at Genesis 2: 7 again with particular attention to the second part of the verse.

Genesis 2: 7 -- And the Lord God formed man [man's body] of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The phrase "breathed into his nostrils" is the figure of speech condescension where God attributes human characteristics to Himself. When God put life into Adam, He MADE man a living SOUL. The word "made" in Hebrew is asah and means "a substance required of which the thing made consists." The soul is simply that which gives life to a person's body. The soul has nothing to do with whether you are a born again Christian or not. As long as a person breathes, he has a soul.

This is flatly wrong according to Genesis 2. It is not the soul that gives life. The soul is the life. It is the spirit that gives the life. God breathed into man spirit, not soul. Read Gen. 2:7. It's not called the soul of life, it's called the spirit or breath of life.

GOD MADE THE SPIRIT:

Genesis 1: 27 -- So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God had already formed and made man -- he already had a body and soul. So what was God doing here when He created man in His own image? What is the image of God?

John 4: 24a -- God is a Spirit: . . . .

God created within man spirit, His image. Man now became body, soul, and spirit. Now God had a companion. The spirit part of man makes it possible for God to talk to man and for man to communicate with God. This gave them fellowship. So now we know from Isaiah and Thessalonians, that man was formed, made, and created and that he was body, soul, and spirit. Whenever scientists talk about creating life, this is a misnomer. Man may rediscover, revamp, reorganize, etc., but man cannot create. He cannot bring something into existence which did not previously exist. Man must always start with some substance so he is NOT creating. Only God can create.
http://www.absolutebiblestudy.com/Basics/BODY_SOUL_SPIRIT.htm

Well then, I am left only to say that we will be in disagreement. Bless you in your life. Major out.

The passage says nothing about God creating spirit in man. It says that He breathed the spirit of breath of life into man. The spirit is God's and is not man. This can seen in the prophecy to Ezekiel. God gave Ezekiel a prophecy of the Resurrection in chapter 37. After seeing flesh come back onto dry bones Ezekiel is told to prophesy to the ruach (wind, breath, or spirit) He does and the dead bodies come alive. God then gives the interpretation to Ezekiel.

11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. (Ezek. 37:1 KJV)

Notice that God is putting His spirit in them and they live. He didn't say, I'll put your spirit back into you and you'll live.

 

[Luke17:37]

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Bottom line to me is this---everything is caste into the lake of fire---hell and death. This is the 2nd death. It doesn't say this is the 2nd eternal life burning in hell. This is where I get bogged down. I will quote a verse that answers the question but the question goes on as thou it wasn't answered. You don't want to believe this--hell and death are done away with---There will be no more death, no more hell. Over and done. No more. You can go on about this or that , doesn't matter. Hell is done away with.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
This is not plural, the devil, the false prophet.

Interesting. You quoted Revelation 20:10:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Remember that the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire when Jesus returns (Revelation 19:20). Then a thousand years passes with Satan bound and unable to deceive anyone (Revelation 20:2-3). Then Satan is let out and he deceives many into coming up to attack Jerusalem (Revelation 20:7-9). Then Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire where the beast and false prophet are. When Satan arrives, the pair have been in the Lake of Fire already for more than a thousand years and yet they are still there. And the latter part of the verse indicates that they will be tormented in the fire forever and ever. Why don't you just believe what the Bible says?

 

[razzelflabben]

I realize what you posted in Hebrews my brother. However you do not seem to understand it correctly.
You are using it to say that....."ALL MEN DIE" which is what you seem to believe. But that is not the meaning of that verse.

I will be more than honored to speak to this with you. The relation of verse 27 that you used to its context is often dismissed in order to stress the certainity of man's future judgment. It is axiomatic that man dies once. However, as I explained, there are exceptions to that.

The Hebrews passage you quoted is simply saying that men do not die then come back to earth to live and die again. In other words, the passage refutes reincarnation. We know that is the case as I said that Enoch did not die and Elijah did not die and the saints alive at the Rapture will not die.

Now when verse 27 is read, it must be considered in the light of verse 28 for correct context.............
"As it is appointed unto men once to die....so Christ was once offered".
The author is clearly presenting a comparison. As it is with men, so it was with Christ. Men can only dies once so the Man Christ could only die once as humanities sacrifice for sins.

As for Romans 3:23. Yes it certainly does apply to all men.

As for Romans 6:23. No. It does not apply to all men. It is once again a comparison verse. Notice that the verse speaks of death and life. It says that "the wages of sin is death" and then speaks of "eternal life." The death here is spiritual death for the wicked lost and we know that is the case because Eternal life means that a person has a saving relationship with God and will not face eternal damnation.

Consider what Jesus said in Matt. 25:46.......
"And these (wicked lost) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Also John 3:16........
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

May the Lord bless you as you ponder these truths.

nice post and for all those who rely on the "cause I say so" argument, this post shows how to use common literary rules for comprehension to support the position being presented. Thanks, it was a refreshing post.

 

[Butch5]

by all means go on...and make sure that you point out the words in the passages given that would back up your claim from the standpoint of common literary rules for comprehension.

See, one of the problems you and a few others on this thread have is that you assume no one will change their mind if your arguments are convincing. That is false, plain and simple. I am more than willing to change my mind but you have to understand two things are necessary for bringing me to that point.
1. you need to show me wrong in scripture from the standpoint of using common literary tools and rules for comprehension because man's "wisdom" simply isn't enough when God says not to rely on man's wisdom but on God's.
2. I have done an indepth study of the topic as part of a bigger study. When I say study I mean I look at every single passage I can find that is related, cross reference it, look into translation issues, look at context, look at totality of scripture's context, test the conclusions, then retest the conclusion. I am here to have you all help me test the conclusions but instead of testing them you are just making veiled accusations against other posters and ignoring the real issue on the table by repeating yourself rather than offering rebuttals. If you have no real rebuttal to offer my only option is that the interpretation I offer is sound and therefore left unchallenged, thus passing the test. So, you can either continue to make false accusations and assumptions and show that the testing proves my understanding to be truth or...you can respond with a rebuttal that corresponds to what I have offered. BTW, just so you know, when I talk about study, I am talking about an average of 8-10 hours a day 5-7 days a week...we aren't talking here about reading some teachers notes or reading a couple of passages and calling it, we are talking about getting deep into the word of God. In fact, some people refuse to allow us to teach from our study because in their own words, "it is too deep for us." So, give it a go if you have the truth it should pass the test. What you need to address at this point is what words in the passages given tell you that it is what man "has" not what he is "given" and how that changes the meaning of the passages in question...you must however use common literary rules for comprehension not some circular logic of man.

I don't know what you studied. However, I have shown repeatedly what I've stated. You have not yet shown any passage of Scripture that shows that man consists of three parts. You talk about using common literary terms. I did that using the word became. It means to come into being. If something comes into being, it did not exist before it came into being. The man was created "BEFORE" the soul came into being. So, using common literary terms I have refuted your claim that man consists of three parts. The soul cannot be part of man if man existed before the soul.

 

[razzelflabben]

I am sorry, but this makes no sense!! God has not given anyone a list of --you get so much time in hell for this offense, and so much for this offense! He is the one that makes that determination--

exactly...and if He says eternity, who are you to disagree? Now, just for the record, my position is that eternal torment hell is the consequence of the natural law, but you just showed one of the glaring holes in the theory that there are varying degrees of time or anguish in hell because God is this or that. You see, the whole argument relies on the assumption that eternal torment is immoral or unjust, but you just admitted that we don't have the right to make that call since God alone decides. IOW's what is immoral and unjust to us may not be to God. We don't decide, God does. thus you just proved the position of temporary hell false by claiming God decides.

-according to their works--according to what evil they have done, justice will be meted out and it is all up to God for He alone knows what evil anyone has done. Some people have spend their entire lives being a pedophile and nobody knew it---God knows the heart--someone may have been doing good works--but their heart was not in it, they did not do it out of love and only God can tell that. Justice will be done and only God can do it---who else can give Hitler the right sentence for all he did? And His decision is final and I certainly am not going to argue the decision He makes. I don't undertand why that bothers you so.

because you say God decides and then turn around and say it must be X because you know morality and justice better than God.

Good works has nothing to do with hell!]

well, yes and no, but the point is, you claim we will be judged by our works yet fail to explain what works those would be. So again I ask, what are the works God will judge us by?

God lays on our hearts what we need to do for others and you follow or not. What works we do for God are out of love for God and man and each has His own road to follow. We are not saved by works, but we are punished in hell for the bad works we do.

so, in your opinion, if I understand this portion of your post is that the works we are judged on are the things that God lays on our hearts...yet scripture says that the old man and the new man are at war with one another so I have to ask if Hitler had on his heart to kill all the Jews, how would that then be an evil work by the definition you give here when I asked you what a work is? I'm thinking that maybe instead of trying to argue your way out of answering, you would be better off just answering the question.

 

[Butch5]

Interesting. You quoted Revelation 20:10:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Remember that the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire when Jesus returns (Revelation 19:20). Then a thousand years passes with Satan bound and unable to deceive anyone (Revelation 20:2-3). Then Satan is let out and he deceives many into coming up to attack Jerusalem (Revelation 20:7-9). Then Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire where the beast and false prophet are. When Satan arrives, the pair have been in the Lake of Fire already for more than a thousand years and yet they are still there. And the latter part of the verse indicates that they will be tormented in the fire forever and ever. Why don't you just believe what the Bible says?

The phrase, "forever and ever" is a superlative. It doen's mean eternity.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Death is thrown in the lake of fire.
Death will be no more.

If the concept of death is no more, how can people in the lake of fire die?

The bible refers to death as rest. "And they will have no rest day or night"

The lake of fire makes much more sense when reading Psalm 5:5-6; 11:5, and Hosea 9:15

No. The LAST ENEMY to be destroyed is death. The words "last enemy" suggests that there are other enemies of GOD that are destroyed prior. This would obviously be the wicked, the devil, and his demonic minions.


...

 

[razzelflabben]

Agreed. However, we are NOT punished for the bad deeds we do but instead we (They) will be punished for rejected Jesus Christ as Saviour.

actually, I have to disagree with you...they are judged for their sins because the blood for sin is not yet met in their lives by the Christ and His shed blood. IOW's they are subject to the law because of their sins not because of unbelief but the sins are judged because of unbelief...as another poster pointed out eons ago, it goes back to the whole understanding layed out for us in the OT for sacrifices and death and forgiveness, etc.