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The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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I understand what you are trying to say.
But the problem is, that there is a little issue with the effect of Jesus dying for the sins of "the whole world that nobody considers: that death is the very thing Jesus conqured on the cross by taking it upon Himself "FOR THE WHOLE WORLD." The only reason sinners have an afterlife is becaue Jesus paid the debt of death in their place.
It's all very legal actually.

I like when somebody challenges God's love when talking about Hell as if that somehow proves something.
I would quote Psalm 5:5 and tell them that they are tormented because God hates all workers of iniquity THAT much.

Has anybody ever thought that God has them tormented forever because hates them? Psalm 11:5, and 5:5 are very powerful verses.

While it is true that Christ died for the sins of the whole world it is also equally true that those who worshiped the beast did not have their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. In other words, those who will worship the beast are the exception to the rule here. Jesus did not die for the sins of those who worshiped the beast because their names were intentionally left out of the book of life since the foundation of the world. Everyone who was once a baby (besides those who worship the beast) was saved. But when the baby grows up, they fall into sin and need a Savior. These are prodigal sons that need to come back home to the Father. Also, names can be blotted out of the book of life, too. In other words, during the time, when people grow up and start to sin (as a part of having the knowledge of good and evil), their name was blotted out. So in order to add their name back, they have to receive Jesus and follow Him. If they go back to sinning again, then their name will be blotted out yet again.


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Major1

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I agree, their main objection is something like "God is love, mercy etc. and a good loving merciful God would not punish people forever etc." Many seem to not have a problem with God punishing people as long as it doesn't last forever. Just for general information for the board.
Origen [a.d. 185-230-254.]
De Principiis. Book I. Chap. VI
3.But whether any of these orders who act under the government of the devil, and obey his wicked commands, will in a future world be converted to righteousness because of their possessing the faculty of freedom of will, or whether persistent and inveterate wickedness may be changed by the power of habit into nature, is a result which you yourself, reader, may approve of, if neither in these present worlds which are seen and temporal, nor in those which are unseen and are eternal, that portion is to differ wholly from the final unity and fitness of things. But in the meantime, both in those temporal worlds which are seen,
De Principiis. Book II. Chap. III
6. We must see, moreover, lest perhaps it is with reference to this that the apostle says, “While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are unseen are eternal. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.” (2 Corinthians 4:18-5:1) And when he says elsewhere, “Because I shall see the heavens, the works of Thy fingers,” (Psa_8:3) and when God said, regarding all things visible, by the mouth of His prophet, “My hand has formed all these things,” (Isa_66:2) He declares that that eternal house in the heavens which He promises to His saints was not made with hands, pointing out, doubtless, the difference of creation in things which are seen and in those which are not seen.
De Principiis. Book III chap. VI
4.Since, then, those things “which are seen are temporal, but those things which are not seen are eternal,” all those bodies which we see either on earth or in heaven, and which are capable of being seen, and have been made with hands, but are not eternal, are far excelled in glory by that which is not visible, nor made with hands, but is eternal.
De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. I.
25. Thy shadow we shall live among the nations;” (Lam_4:20) at the time, viz., when He will more worthily transfer all the saints from a temporal to an everlasting Gospel, according to the designation, employed by John in the Apocalypse, of “an everlasting Gospel.” (Cf. Rev_14:6)
Origen Against Celsus. Book VI. Chap. XIX
Our Paul, moreover, educated by these words, and longing after things “supra-mundane” and “super-celestial,” and doing his utmost for their sake to attain them, says in the second Epistle to the Corinthians: “For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are unseen are eternal.”
De Principiis. Book III. Chap. VI
8.From which it appears to me, that as on this earth the law was a sort of schoolmaster to those who by it were to he conducted to Christ, in order that, being instructed and trained by it, they might more easily, after the training of the law, receive the more perfect principles of Christ; so also another earth, which receives into it all the saints, may first imbue and mould them by the institutions of the true and everlasting law, that they may more easily gain possession of those perfect institutions of heaven, to which nothing can be added; in which there will be, of a truth, that Gospel which is called everlasting, and that Testament, ever new, which shall never grow old.
De Principiis. Book III. Chap. I.
13.For God deals with souls not merely with a view to the short space of our present life, included within sixty years or more, but with reference to a perpetual and never-ending period, exercising His providential care over souls that are immortal, even as He Himself is eternal and immortal.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] The Extant Works and Fragments
Part I. Commentaries on Various Books of Scripture. On Proverbs.
Proverbs 11:30 But the souls of the unrighteous meet an untimely expulsion from the presence of God, by whom they shall be left to remain in the flame of torment.
Justin [A.D. 110-165.] First Apology Chap LII
He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils. And that these things also have been foretold as yet to be, we will prove. By Ezekiel the prophet it was said: “Joint shall be joined to joint, and bone to bone, and flesh shall grow again; and every knee shall bow to the Lord, and every tongue shall confess Him.” (Eze_37:7, Eze_37:8; Isa_45:24) And in what kind of sensation and punishment the wicked are to be, hear from what was said in like manner with reference to this; it is as follows: “Their worm shall not rest, and their fire shall not be quenched;” (Isa_66:24) and then shall they repent, when it profits them not.
Justin The First Apology Chap. VIII
And Plato, in like manner, used to say that Rhadamanthus and Minos would punish the wicked who came before them; and we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years.
Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies. Book V Chap. XXVII
Those, therefore, who cast away by apostasy these forementioned things, being in fact destitute of all good, do experience every kind of punishment. God, however, does not punish them immediately of Himself, but that punishment falls upon them because they are destitute of all that is good. Now, good things are eternal and without end with God, and therefore the loss of these is also eternal and never-ending. It is in this matter just as occurs in the case of a flood of light: those who have blinded themselves, or have been blinded by others, are for ever deprived of the enjoyment of light.
Tertullian [a.d. 145-220] Part First Apologetic Chap. XLVIII
Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged — the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire — that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility.
Commodianus [a.d. 240] Instructions in Favour of Christian Discipline. Against the Gods of the Heathens.
Learn God, O foolish man, who wishes thee to be immortal, that thou mayest give Him eternal thanks in thy struggle. His own law teaches thee; but since thou seekest to wander, thou disbelievest all things, and thence thou shalt go into hell. By and by thou givest up thy life; thou shalt be taken where it grieveth thee to be: there the spiritual punishment, which is eternal, is undergone; there are always wailings: nor dost thou absolutely die therein - there at length too late proclaiming the omnipotent God.
Hippolytus [A.D. 170-236] Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe
1. And we call it by the name Abraham’s bosom. But the unrighteous are dragged toward the left by angels who are ministers of punishment, and they go of their own accord no longer, but are dragged by force as prisoners. And the angels appointed over them send them along, reproaching them and threatening them with an eye of terror, forcing them down into the lower parts. And when they are brought there, those appointed to that service drag them on to the confines or hell. And those who are so near hear incessantly the agitation, and feel the hot smoke. And when that vision is so near, as they see the terrible and excessively glowing spectacle of the fire, they shudder in horror at the expectation of the future judgment, (as if they were) already feeling the power of their punishment. And again, where they see the place of the fathers and the righteous, they are also punished there. For a deep and vast abyss is set there in the midst, so that neither can any of the righteous in sympathy think to pass it, nor any of the unrighteous dare to cross it.
2 and to the lovers of iniquity shall be given eternal punishment. And the fire which is un-quenchable and without end awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, but continues bursting forth from the body with unending pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them
Cyprian [A.D. 200-258.] Treatise V. — An Address to Demetrianus.
24. What will then be the glory of faith? what the punishment of faithlessness? When the day of judgment shall come, what joy of believers, what sorrow of unbelievers; that they should have been unwilling to believe here, and now that they should be unable to return that they might believe! An ever-burning Gehenna will burn up the condemned, and a punishment devouring with living flames; nor will there be any source whence at any time they may have either respite or end to their torments. Souls with their bodies will be reserved in infinite tortures for suffering. . . We wearied ourselves in the way of wickedness and destruction; we have gone through deserts where there lay no way; but we have not known the way of the Lord. What hath pride profited us, or what good hath the boasting of riches done us? All those things are passed away like a shadow.” (Wisdom of Solomon 5:1-9) The pain of punishment will then be without the fruit of penitence; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late they will believe in eternal punishment who would not believe in eternal life.
Minucius Felix (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death.They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores t
hem, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them"
Lactantius [A.D. 307] Divine Institutes 7:21
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire".
Cyril of Jerusalem [A.D. 350]Catechetical Lectures 18:19
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past"
God love brother but you have got to come up with a plan to shorten your comments. Such a long post causes me to not read it.
 
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razzelflabben

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You're just full fallacies, huh? I didn't say anything about what I believed. I said they aren't the ones who translated it into English. Your ad hominem fallacies do nothing to further your argument. Actually, they show you don't have one.
huh? Now it appears you don't even have a clue what you are saying or trying to argue, I think that is a good sign that we need to be done. Sorry that you felt it necessary to flame instead of respond but such is life.
 
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Major1

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actually, I have to disagree with you...they are judged for their sins because the blood for sin is not yet met in their lives by the Christ and His shed blood. IOW's they are subject to the law because of their sins not because of unbelief but the sins are judged because of unbelief...as another poster pointed out eons ago, it goes back to the whole understanding layed out for us in the OT for sacrifices and death and forgiveness, etc.

Well, you are the 1st person to disagree with me (lol).

May I ask you to clarify your comment a little for me? I am just an old country boy.

What does IOW's mean????

Are you referring to Old Test. saints. They are saved by faith then just as we are today. They were looking ahead for the Messiah and we look back at the Messiah. The shed blood of animals pointed to the shed blood of Christ.
 
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Major1

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nice post and for all those who rely on the "cause I say so" argument, this post shows how to use common literary rules for comprehension to support the position being presented. Thanks, it was a refreshing post.

That is a very nice thing to say. God bless you for your thoughts.
 
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Butch5

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Well, I agree that the Law of Moses was said that it would last "forever" and yet we know that this word was used in a temporal way.

Side Note:

But make no mistake, before the cross, while Jesus was making changes in the Law, Jesus also taught men to keep the Old Law (Matthew 5:24, Matthew 19:16-17). But after the cross, this was not so. Nobody continued to offer animal sacrifices after the cross; and Peter was told to violate OT Law by eating unclean animals by God in a vision. The temple veil was torn from top to bottom at Christ's death. So clearly the New Covenant began with Jesus's death.


...

The Jews still offered sacrifices until the temple was destroyed.
 
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razzelflabben

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Well, you are the 1st person to disagree with me (lol).

May I ask you to clarify your comment a little for me? I am just an old country boy.

What does IOW's mean????

Are you referring to Old Test. saints. They are saved by faith then just as we are today. They were looking ahead for the Messiah and we look back at the Messiah. The shed blood of animals pointed to the shed blood of Christ.
IOW...In other words, I wouldn't know it except it was kind of forced on me.

In your clarification post, I see that we agree. Let me put it another way. when my husband and I talk about things like this, we often correct one another on the way we word what we mean because where we agree with each other, the way something is worded can present a wrong impression. That being said let me see if I can be clearer in what I am saying.

According to scripture, hell/death is the consequence of sin. IOW's if you sin, you die (the second death) the only remedy for this is the blood of Christ. Why? Because the blood of Christ is a death that already payed the price the law demanded. Therefore, those who go to hell go because of their sin, it is the price the law demands, those who believe have had the blood of Christ already applied to their debt.

Another way of saying the same thing. Sin is why there is death, either we die (spiritual or second death) or Christ does. The choice is ours but the death penalty is NOT because we refuse Jesus, the penalty doesn't change what changes is who dies for our sins.

Does that help?
 
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Major1

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The phrase, "forever and ever" is a superlative. It doen's mean eternity.

Butch, I have to disagree with you. Where it is used in Scripture, the "Context" demands that it be interpreted exactly as that.

IMO, the reason why you do not accept is that we as humans have trouble understanding infinity.

Ecclesiastes 3:11.........
“He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.”

Butch, if we carefully study all the passages where we find the phrase "Forever & ever" I think you will conclude that the term "for ever" as used in the Holy Scriptures denotes continuity (without a break) of action, being, or state of being. It is obvious that it may mean either a long or a short period of time, either definite or indefinite. So what is the answer to this. The key to understanding the length of time involved depends on the nature of the person or thing to which the word is applied or better said....context.

So then when we read of God that "His mercy endureth for ever," it means that as long as God shall exist, His mercy will exist. Why is that the case???? Because God is eternal in His nature, His attributes are eternal also.

Likewise, when we read that the lake of fire lasts forever & for ever that means eternally. WHY?????
Because God is eternal in His nature, His attributes are eternal also.

As long as God lives, then the context of what He says is forever and forever will live also.
 
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Major1

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IOW...In other words, I wouldn't know it except it was kind of forced on me.

In your clarification post, I see that we agree. Let me put it another way. when my husband and I talk about things like this, we often correct one another on the way we word what we mean because where we agree with each other, the way something is worded can present a wrong impression. That being said let me see if I can be clearer in what I am saying.

According to scripture, hell/death is the consequence of sin. IOW's if you sin, you die (the second death) the only remedy for this is the blood of Christ. Why? Because the blood of Christ is a death that already payed the price the law demanded. Therefore, those who go to hell go because of their sin, it is the price the law demands, those who believe have had the blood of Christ already applied to their debt.

Another way of saying the same thing. Sin is why there is death, either we die (spiritual or second death) or Christ does. The choice is ours but the death penalty is NOT because we refuse Jesus, the penalty doesn't change what changes is who dies for our sins.

Does that help?
Yes mam. I agree with you in principle and I am glad you and I are on the same page. I am not new to Christian forums, however I am to this one and I am seeing a lot of people who do not grasp the Word of God but instead are relying on their own understanding. I am glad to find you are not one of those.

Basically, my understanding over the years has convinced me that God became a human being so that He could die for human beings. Jesus, God in human form, died on the cross. As God, His death was infinite and eternal in value, paying the full price for mans sin. God then invites all human beings to receive Jesus Christ as Savior, accepting His death as the full and just payment for our sins. God promises that anyone who believes in Jesus, trusting Him alone as the Savior will be saved from the coming judgment and will not go to hell.

It is also my understanding that the sin of UNBELIEF is the only sin which can and will send the sinner to hell.

Matthew 12:31. .......
"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men."

We learn in Matthew 12:31 that every sin will be forgiven, except one – the blasphemy against the Spirit.

What then is "Blasphemy"?????

So then the only sin mentioned above that involves actions and thoughts is the sin of denying Christ and speaking against Him. So blasphemy against Christ is to reject Him and speak evil or injuriously about Him. That is UNBELIEF!

Every sin we are able to commit is also able to be forgive except the sin of UNBELIEF.

I am a lot like David. I do not know of many sins I have not committed but like David I have a heart for God and I am thankful the He is able to forgive me of my sins!!!!
 
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Major1

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Here is another way to say what I am saying....people die (second death) because of their sins, those who live live because they allowed Christ to be their blood sacrifice or to die in their place. He is the scapegoat...

According to Scripture in Rev. 20, isn't the second death actually the lake of fire?

Rev. 20:14.........
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."
 
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razzelflabben

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Yes mam. I agree with you in principle and I am glad you and I are on the same page. I am not new to Christian forums, however I am to this one and I am seeing a lot of people who do not grasp the Word of God but instead are relying on their own understanding. I am glad to find you are not one of those.

Basically, my understanding over the years has convinced me that God became a human being so that He could die for human beings. Jesus, God in human form, died on the cross. As God, His death was infinite and eternal in value, paying the full price for mans sin. God then invites all human beings to receive Jesus Christ as Savior, accepting His death as the full and just payment for our sins. God promises that anyone who believes in Jesus, trusting Him alone as the Savior will be saved from the coming judgment and will not go to hell.
amen...the issue though is that in this discussion some refuse to accept that sin is why hell is even talked about in scripture. In fact, one person came right out and said that sin isn't why men go to hell, when asked what is, there was no answer. That is why I took issue with how it was stated. If we do not understand we all have sinned and that is why Christ's coming and suffering and death and resurrection were needed, we miss Christ altogether. In fact, I personally know some people who refuse to call any of the sins they committed or do commit sin but rather, "just a mistake". How can Christ forgive us if we don't even understand that we have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? How can we seek Christ's cleansing from all unrighteousness if we have no clue that the thing that stands between God and man in the first place is sin? SEe, we do agree, we disagree (maybe) on the importance of how to explain it.
It is also my understanding that the sin of UNBELIEF is the only sin which can and will send the sinner to hell.
I wouldn't disagree, but again, I think wording is important here. Unbelief is the only unforgivable sin, however, if we do not apply the blood of Christ to our other sins, or in other words, seek reconciliation with God aka forgiveness, then those sins remain a problem that separates man from God. That is why scripture says over and over to repent, to be cleansed, to be forgiven.
Matthew 12:31. .......
"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men."

We learn in Matthew 12:31 that every sin will be forgiven, except one – the blasphemy against the Spirit.

What then is "Blasphemy"?????

So then the only sin mentioned above that involves actions and thoughts is the sin of denying Christ and speaking against Him. So blasphemy against Christ is to reject Him and speak evil or injuriously about Him. That is UNBELIEF!
more specifically, against God but yes, we agree on this...
 
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razzelflabben

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According to Scripture in Rev. 20, isn't the second death actually the lake of fire?

Rev. 20:14.........
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."
agreed, that is kind of what I was saying when I said it was wrong to call hades/bosom of Abraham hell
 
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Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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The Jews still offered sacrifices until the temple was destroyed.

No more sacrifices are required anymore.
Christ is now our passover lamb.

"For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us." (1 Corinthians 5:7).

As for the Jews:
Did they accept their Messiah or Savior?
Can one be saved without Jesus?



...
 
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mmksparbud

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With all due respect to you, I am sorry my sister but you have been given some wrong teaching.

Whenever you see Jesus use a word such as “perish” or “destroy,” the original word is “apollumi.” The Greek word “apollumi” means to “to lose, or to be lost.”

Now then, In Matt. 10:28-29......
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell".

So what does the Word of God actually say to us.........
A better translation would be “whoever believes in Him should not be lost.” We are all lost until God finds us. Those who die yet unbelieving will experience further “apollumi,” or being “lost” in the lake of fire, which is the second death of torments.


No it means both soul and body can be destroyed.
 
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According to Scripture in Rev. 20, isn't the second death actually the lake of fire?

Rev. 20:14.........
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

It's called the second death because it is related to the first death. The first death is the destruction or end of our 1st physical bodies. The second death is the destruction or end of the wicked's physical body after they receive their 2nd body in the: "Resurrection of the Unjust" (Which takes place shortly before the Judgment - For death and hell delivered up the dead - Revelation 20:13).


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mmksparbud

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Read my latest post.

The painful boil is just the start of their pain, which will not end. Do you believe in eternal life with Jesus? You have no problem believing that Christians will live with Jesus forever and ever, I imagine. Yet you have a hard time believing that God is that serious about punishing sin.

Onesimus is a brother in Christ forever to Philemon. They live in the presence of God, although their bodies are buried in the ground still. (Yet they will rise at the resurrection of the dead in Christ, when He comes.)

May God open your eyes.


Yes, Jesus is serious about sin---that is why He will totally do away with it. Both sin and sinner will be destroyed. Why should there be a problem with accepting eternal life with Jesus? He is life itself. He grants eternal life as a gift to the saved. He does not grant eternal life to the lost so that they can burn forever. There is not one single verse that says death is separation from God, not one. Like there is no verse that says the lost also get eternal life.
 
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mmksparbud

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God love brother but you have got to come up with a plan to shorten your comments. Such a long post causes me to not read it.

I was just going to say that---I can't read all that---I loose track of what is being said. I have fibro and my brain can't deal with long posts. I have found most people will not read a long post even without fibro. Along with too many points in one post.
 
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mmksparbud

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exactly...and if He says eternity, who are you to disagree? Now, just for the record, my position is that eternal torment hell is the consequence of the natural law, but you just showed one of the glaring holes in the theory that there are varying degrees of time or anguish in hell because God is this or that. You see, the whole argument relies on the assumption that eternal torment is immoral or unjust, but you just admitted that we don't have the right to make that call since God alone decides. IOW's what is immoral and unjust to us may not be to God. We don't decide, God does. thus you just proved the position of temporary hell false by claiming God decides. because you say God decides and then turn around and say it must be X because you know morality and justice better than God. well, yes and no, but the point is, you claim we will be judged by our works yet fail to explain what works those would be. So again I ask, what are the works God will judge us by? so, in your opinion, if I understand this portion of your post is that the works we are judged on are the things that God lays on our hearts...yet scripture says that the old man and the new man are at war with one another so I have to ask if Hitler had on his heart to kill all the Jews, how would that then be an evil work by the definition you give here when I asked you what a work is? I'm thinking that maybe instead of trying to argue your way out of answering, you would be better off just answering the question.


You can take the simplest thing and turn it into an essay----I don't know how many times I have to quote the bible says we are punished according to our works. We are not saved by our works. I do not have to explain what works those are---The 10 commandment lists most of them. And God goes further, for, like I keep saying, He knows the heart. Jesus said if you have lust in your hesrt you are guilty of adultery. Because God decides how long someone will suffer has nothing to do with God is going to decide to have a 14 year old boy who stole $5 be tormented in hell forever. He will not to that for the simple reason it is according to their works. God does not do infinite punishment for finite crimes. He can't, because it is not who He is. It is not us deciding what He can or can not do, it is Himself.
Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
He will punish the wicked---there is no doubt about that. He gives eternal life to none but the saved, the lost do not get it in order to burn forever.
 
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Hillsage

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I wouldn't expect you to read all of the posts, maybe just a few of mine since you replied to my post.



Let me ask you, what is water made of? How many elements does it consist of.
TWO and that's why I won't say "And may your whole cup of hydrogen, water and oxygen be wet until Butch's understanding gets saturated." ;) If your analogy is to explain 1Thes 5:23 then you are are of an understanding that no one understands.
 
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