The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Butch5]

The lack of critical thinking in this thread is astonishing. In addition to that logical fallacies abound. Guys, Jesus said He is the truth. As such seeking the truth should be of the utmost importance to those who follow him. That means any doctrine that cannot be reconciled with Scripture should go. Christians should learn logical fallacies so that they don't make them when trying to defend Scripture. A logical fallacy is an error in the chain of reason.

The fallacy of Begging the Question, also called Circular Reasoning, is the primary fallacy in this thread. The argument that man consists of three parts is based on this fallacy. The reason it is a fallacy is because those making the claim that man consists of three parts start with that premise. Their conclusion is just a restatement of their premise. They have no proof of their claim. That can be seen in the fact that no one has presented any Scripture that says man consists of three parts. Sure, they've posted passages from which they've "INFERRED" that idea. But, an inference is just an opinion. It's drawn from what "ISN'T" stated. That something is inferred by definition means it wasn't stated. So, those who are arguing that man consists of three parts have no proof from Scripture. That is why their argument is a logical fallacy. They are approaching the Bible with the premise that man consists of three parts, they post a verse that doesn't state that, but rather from which they infer it, and then claim it's the case. That is Begging the Question or Circular reasoning.

 

[Butch5]

I am not saying that you are, but I am saying that one of the main teachings of the “Jehovah’s Witnesses” is that “no man has a soul”. I just thought you would like to know about that teaching. They do that because they totally reject the Trinity of God therefore they must reject the trinity of man.

Now as for the Bible teaching and Scripture confirmation I will give you 2 verses. There are more but these 2 say all that needs to be said.

1 Thess. 5:23...........
"I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".

Hebrews 4:12..........
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart".

No offense, but, have you read any of this thread. I have addressed these passage again and again.

Which passage says that man has a soul?

 

[razzelflabben]

The lack of critical thinking in this thread is astonishing. In addition to that logical fallacies abound. Guys, Jesus said He is the truth. As such seeking the truth should be of the utmost importance to those who follow him. That means any doctrine that cannot be reconciled with Scripture should go. Christians should learn logical fallacies so that they don't make them when trying to defend Scripture. A logical fallacy is an error in the chain of reason.

amen but some don't think reconciling all of scripture is a good thing...which is really sad.

The fallacy of Begging the Question, also called Circular Reasoning, is the primary fallacy in this thread. The argument that man consists of three parts is based on this fallacy.

see here, this is an example of the above. You have been shown two passages that clearly state that man has flesh, soul, and spirit and yet you call it a fallacy without showing any reason to read the passages differently. That is to reject certain scriptures to hold to your opinions which is not reconciling all of scripture.

The reason it is a fallacy is because those making the claim that man consists of three parts start with that premise.

I can't speak for everyone else, but when I first did the study a few months ago I went into it without any preconceived ideas and simply asked God to show me truth. I have a whole couple of pages of passages I studied but the previously posted two passages are the clearest stated and hardest to question as apparently you are aware of since you refuse to offer a rebuttal of the passages and only return to Gen. without first reconciling all the passages into one understanding.

Their conclusion is just a restatement of their premise. They have no proof of their claim.

Now see, this is personal attacks of anothers character and assumptions of how they came to their conclusions, at least in my case, false assumptions. this is considered flaming by the rules and prohibits actual discussion and debate because you refuse to explain how something that God says He can separate into two parts that stand alone is really the same thing or none existing.

That can be seen in the fact that no one has presented any Scripture that says man consists of three parts. Sure, they've posted passages from which they've "INFERRED" that idea. But, an inference is just an opinion. It's drawn from what "ISN'T" stated.

and yet the two passages that repeatedly are posted and still waiting for a rebuttal clearly list 3 parts to man, no inferring needed, it's stated right out. Yet you keep insisting that refusing to accept this is some how others inferring what is not there....here is an example, if I say, the cookies are made of butter, flour, and sugar, your argument would be that we are inferring that it has both flour and sugar because another recipe says that the flour and sugar should be mixed so well together that separating them would be difficult. See, in that example, you would be the one inferring that flour and sugar are the same thing or whatever nonsense you are trying to argue. Those who say there are three ingredients would be stating what the statement right out says. IOW's I don't think from this post you understand what the word inferring means.

That something is inferred by definition means it wasn't stated. So, those who are arguing that man consists of three parts have no proof from Scripture. That is why their argument is a logical fallacy. They are approaching the Bible with the premise that man consists of three parts, they post a verse that doesn't state that, but rather from which they infer it, and then claim it's the case. That is Begging the Question or Circular reasoning.

see above...you have things backwards.

 

[Major1]

No offense, but, have you read any of this thread. I have addressed these passage again and again.

Which passage says that man has a soul?

No offence taken. It is a good question and I enjoy the discussion. The answer is.......NO. I am not going to read 958 comments of one thread in order to speak correctly on a post about whether man has a soul, spirit and body.

Now did you read comment #959???

1 Thess. 5:23...........
"I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".

Hebrews 4:12..........
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart".

Now personally, I do not know how else to explain those verses other than they say what they say.

I am really simple. I read the Word of God, accept it as God's direction to men as they are then I have to adjust my understanding to fit the Word of God.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, I agree. The death without any hope of a resurrection. But ultimately it comes down to death and not ECT.

The Scriptures you posted apply to the wicked lost. To them the penalty of their sin IS death. Their bodies will be resurrected and then they will be sent to the second death which is the lake of fire forever and ever.
As for 100% of mankind to die. What about Enoch. Didn't he ascend to God without dieing? What about Elijah. Didn't he also go home to God with death? Then what about the people who will be Raptured. They will not die but instead receive a glorified body when they meet the Lord in the air.

Major, I quoted Hebrew 9:27, "it is appointed unto man once to die after that the judgment" if you have a problem with it maybe you'd better talk to the author. Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23 apply to all men not just the wicked. And here is my previous post.

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

Were the "all nations,""dead great and small,""whosoever was not found written in the book of life" dead?

 

[Major1]

this was refuted with scriptures and you didn't address the rebuttal...have a go at it so that our discussions can continue on in a profitable manner rather than just "cause I say so" arguments.

My experience over the years my brother is that men tend to stick with what they know even when they are shown that what it is they know is not Bible truth.

An example is the torments of hell. Many people just will not accept and believe that the wicked lost will be tormented (plural) forever and ever, even though the words that say just that are shown to them.

They will then come up with all kinds of theories of their minds to explain away the truth of God's Word.

 

[razzelflabben]

My experience over the years my brother is that men tend to stick with what they know even when they are shown that what it is they know is not Bible truth.

An example is the torments of hell. Many people just will not accept and believe that the wicked lost will be tormented (plural) forever and ever, even though the words that say just that are shown to them.

They will then come up with all kinds of theories of their minds to explain away the truth of God's Word.

amen...I am always amazed at how many people worship their traditions, they leaders teachings, etc. rather than the ONE TRUE GOD....and again I say amen. May we always strive to know all of God we can contain and in that discover the God we only thought we knew.

 

[Butch5]

No offence taken. It is a good question and I enjoy the discussion. The answer is.......NO. I am not going to read 958 comments of one thread in order to speak correctly on a post about whether man has a soul, spirit and body.

I wouldn't expect you to read all of the posts, maybe just a few of mine since you replied to my post.

Now did you read comment #959???

1 Thess. 5:23...........
"I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".

Hebrews 4:12..........
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow (body), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart".

Now personally, I do not know how else to explain those verses other than they say what they say.

I am really simple. I read the Word of God, accept it as God's direction to men as they are then I have to adjust my understanding to fit the Word of God.

Let me ask you, what is water made of? How many elements does it consist of.

 

[aiki]

This is all just speculation off of taking a few verses out of context, though.

Not at all. I'm curious what verses you expect I'd take out of context in regards to God's perfect holiness and purity? Here are a couple I often refer to that are as plain as the nose on your face:

1 John 1:5
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

Psalms 5:4
4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You.

These verses stands in sharp contrast to how you and I are described in Scripture:

Romans 3:23
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Jeremiah 17:9
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

So, where is the speculation? These verses are perfectly straightforward. Scripture says exactly what I have said about the enormous disparity between the Holy God revealed in the Bible and the desperately wicked creatures populating the Earth. And I've only offered a very small sampling of the many verses and passages that communicate this difference to us in Scripture.

First, there are more verses in support of Conditional Immortality then there are for Eternal Concious Torment.

That depends entirely upon how you choose to understand terms like "perish," "destroy," "destruction," "die," and "death." As I've pointed out already in this thread, the Bible gives us good reason to take a non-annihilationist view of these terms.

it not only does not make any sense logically for an eternal and holy God to torture His creation for disobeying Him finitely, it is down right sadistic and wrong on many levels.

It makes very good sense for an infinite, perfect and omnipotent God to judge our deep wickedness as He does. Seeing this, though, relies on our recognizing properly God's staggering purity and authority. When a person has a low view of God, they take a correspondingly light view of their sin against Him.

For no way would you approve of the endless torture of your children if they were to disobey and reject you. God's holy and just character would never allow for torturing His creation for all eternity.

First off, only those who are saved are God's children. All others are in wicked rebellion to Him and are described as His "enemies" and "alienated from Him by wicked works" (Col. 1:21) and children of the devil (Jn. 8:44). So, God does not punish His children eternally in Hell, but those who have rejected Him and stand in willful rebellion to Him as His enemies.

Second, it is precisely because God is perfectly holy and just that He judges sin as harshly (from our perspective as wicked sinners) as He does. And He has no special attachment to His Creation. Scripture tells us that He will one day burn up the present heavens and earth and make both anew. (2Pe. 3:10-12) I don't see, then, that your reasons for denying ECT are scriptural or correctly understand the relationship of God to His Creation.

His creation would have to possess the ability to sin against God for all eternity and why would God allow evil to be glorified next to His holiness for all eternity?

This all assumes the finiteness of sin. But when our sin is against an infinite God, it is no longer finite. Again, this idea of "finite" sin is a reflection of your low view of God, rather than the true nature of your sin.

Believe it or not, Christians can actually stop sinning in this life. My guess is that you are against such a teaching as taught in the Bible.
Do you believe in Once Saved Always Saved or Eternal Security?

I certainly believe Christians can make sin the exception rather than the rule in their lives; but sinless perfection in practice this side of eternity is not taught in Scripture. We are, by God, declared justified by our trust in Christ as our Saviour and submission to him as Lord. But this a forensic justification, not an actual one. Although I am clothed in the righteousness of Christ, I am not, therefore, a perfectly sinless person any more than I would be a bear when clothed in a bear-skin coat.

I believe the Bible clearly teaches OSAS.

I have a low view of your interpretation of God and not the God of the Bible. There is a difference.

I disagree. My view of God rests squarely on the plain teaching of the Bible. I hold no view of God that is not thoroughly biblical. You reject, then, not my "interpretation" of God but the clear and explicit declaration of Scripture about Him.

God is love. God is not hate.

But God hates nonetheless. He hates with a perfect hatred all wickedness, all sin.

Proverbs 6:16-19
16 These six things the Lord hates, Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

Zechariah 8:17
17 Let none of you think evil in your heart against your neighbor; And do not love a false oath. For all these are things that I hate,' Says the Lord."

Deuteronomy 16:21-22
21 "You shall not plant for yourself any tree, as a wooden image, near the altar which you build for yourself to the Lord your God.
22 You shall not set up a sacred pillar, which the Lord your God hates.

Psalms 45:6-7
6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

And so on.

The God of ECT is not merciful because He is going to torture people alive for all eternity.

This is a false dichotomy. It is not either/or but both/and in respect to God's mercy and punishment of the wicked. God is both merciful in offering salvation to us and just in His punishment of sin. The former does not preclude the latter.

For what? His holy character? Really?

And here you display again your low view of God. Just because God's holiness is of little importance to you doesn't mean it must therefore be so to God.

Is not God good and just whereby we can explain it using a real world example?

You cannot properly understand God by considering what He has made any more than you could properly understand a potter by way of the clay pots he makes. Just like a potter is not the pots he has made, God is not what He has made. He is far, far, far above and beyond the material universe that He has created. Trying, then, to understand God's goodness and justice by looking at ourselves, at our sin-fouled "justice" and "goodness," is to guarantee a warped and clouded understanding of these aspects of God. There is no "real world example" (save Jesus himself) that comes anywhere close to doing justice to who God truly is. When you attempt to see God through the filter of your own reasoning and "goodness," the truth of God and the doctrines that flow out of that truth (ie. the doctrine of ECT) are immediate casualties.

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

Selah.

 

[Butch5]

see here, this is an example of the above. You have been shown two passages that clearly state that man has flesh, soul, and spirit and yet you call it a fallacy without showing any reason to read the passages differently. That is to reject certain scriptures to hold to your opinions which is not reconciling all of scripture.

And this is the Straw Man fallacy you continue to propose. The question isn't what man has, it's what man is. There's a big difference between the two

 

[Butch5]

My experience over the years my brother is that men tend to stick with what they know even when they are shown that what it is they know is not Bible truth.

An example is the torments of hell. Many people just will not accept and believe that the wicked lost will be tormented (plural) forever and ever, even though the words that say just that are shown to them.

They will then come up with all kinds of theories of their minds to explain away the truth of God's Word.

That has been proven several times over in this thread. What I've claimed is plainly stated in Scripture. What they've claimed is not.

 

[Major1]

Major, I quoted Hebrew 9:27, "it is appointed unto man once to die after that the judgment" if you have a problem with it maybe you'd better talk to the author. Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23 apply to all men not just the wicked. And here is my previous post.

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.​

Were the "all nations,""dead great and small,""whosoever was not found written in the book of life" dead?

I realize what you posted in Hebrews my brother. However you do not seem to understand it correctly.
You are using it to say that....."ALL MEN DIE" which is what you seem to believe. But that is not the meaning of that verse.

I will be more than honored to speak to this with you. The relation of verse 27 that you used to its context is often dismissed in order to stress the certainity of man's future judgment. It is axiomatic that man dies once. However, as I explained, there are exceptions to that.

The Hebrews passage you quoted is simply saying that men do not die then come back to earth to live and die again. In other words, the passage refutes reincarnation. We know that is the case as I said that Enoch did not die and Elijah did not die and the saints alive at the Rapture will not die.

Now when verse 27 is read, it must be considered in the light of verse 28 for correct context.............
"As it is appointed unto men once to die....so Christ was once offered".
The author is clearly presenting a comparison. As it is with men, so it was with Christ. Men can only dies once so the Man Christ could only die once as humanities sacrifice for sins.

As for Romans 3:23. Yes it certainly does apply to all men.

As for Romans 6:23. No. It does not apply to all men. It is once again a comparison verse. Notice that the verse speaks of death and life. It says that "the wages of sin is death" and then speaks of "eternal life." The death here is spiritual death for the wicked lost and we know that is the case because Eternal life means that a person has a saving relationship with God and will not face eternal damnation.

Consider what Jesus said in Matt. 25:46.......
"And these (wicked lost) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Also John 3:16........
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

May the Lord bless you as you ponder these truths.

 

[Major1]

That has been proven several times over in this thread. What I've claimed is plainly stated in Scripture. What they've claimed is not.

Just so that I do not have to read 960 postings, would you be kind enough to post the Bible verse which say that man is not a body, soul and spirit which you are claiming.

 

[mmksparbud]

well, first that is the first time you even attempted to answer one of the several questions answered, so getting snippy isn't going to help your case.
Second, what are our "works" according to scripture anyway? We will do as scripture says and build on this precept as we go. According to scripture, what are our "works"...what are the "good works" God has created for you?

Oh and since you answered one of the questions, let's build on that as well...if God determines how long and intense suffering is, how does He decide and how do you know that you could agree with His decision? For example, what if He says X deserves 1000 years and Y deserves 10 years but you think that is backwards, would that mean that God's judgments are immoral because you disagree with how long a specific thing is punished? What about criminals, is time served in jail on this earth time served in hell? Oh so many questions and so few answers offered.

I am sorry, but this makes no sense!! God has not given anyone a list of --you get so much time in hell for this offense, and so much for this offense! He is the one that makes that determination---according to their works--according to what evil they have done, justice will be meted out and it is all up to God for He alone knows what evil anyone has done. Some people have spend their entire lives being a pedophile and nobody knew it---God knows the heart--someone may have been doing good works--but their heart was not in it, they did not do it out of love and only God can tell that. Justice will be done and only God can do it---who else can give Hitler the right sentence for all he did? And His decision is final and I certainly am not going to argue the decision He makes. I don't undertand why that bothers you so. Good works has nothing to do with hell! God lays on our hearts what we need to do for others and you follow or not. What works we do for God are out of love for God and man and each has His own road to follow. We are not saved by works, but we are punished in hell for the bad works we do.

 

[Major1]

I am sorry, but this makes no sense!! God has not given anyone a list of --you get so much time in hell for this offense, and so much for this offense! He is the one that makes that determination---according to their works--according to what evil they have done, justice will be meted out and it is all up to God for He alone knows what evil anyone has done. Some people have spend their entire lives being a pedophile and nobody knew it---God knows the heart--someone may have been doing good works--but their heart was not in it, they did not do it out of love and only God can tell that. Justice will be done and only God can do it---who else can give Hitler the right sentence for all he did? And His decision is final and I certainly am not going to argue the decision He makes. I don't undertand why that bothers you so. Good works has nothing to do with hell! God lays on our hearts what we need to do for others and you follow or not. What works we do for God are out of love for God and man and each has His own road to follow. We are not saved by works, but we are punished in hell for the bad works we do.

Agreed. However, we are NOT punished for the bad deeds we do but instead we (They) will be punished for rejected Jesus Christ as Saviour.

 

[mmksparbud]

Agreed. However, we are NOT punished for the bad deeds we do but instead we (They) will be punished for rejected Jesus Christ as Saviour.

Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

It doesn't say they will be punished only for rejecting Christ---everything they did is written down and they will answer for them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are those that accepted Christ---but they did not do His will.

 

[Butch5]

Just so that I do not have to read 960 postings, would you be kind enough to post the Bible verse which say that man is not a body, soul and spirit which you are claiming.

There is not passage that says man is "not" a body, soul, and spirit. There is also no verse that says he is. However, Moses gives us an explanation of how God created man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Note that man was created from the dust of the ground. That is what he is. Then God breathed His breath or spirit of life into the man and the man "became" a living soul. The word became means to come into being. The man was not a living soul prior to his receiving the breath or spirit of life from God. If one is to claim that man is anything more than this one must prove it from Scripture.

Moses also recorded God's words to Adam.

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

How much clearer could it be? God said to Adam, 'you are dust.' He didn't say, you are spirit living in flesh body. He didn't say you are composed of three parts. He said, 'you are dust.' It's clear in the passage that the dust body was created before the man received the spirit or breath of life from God and became a living soul.

This is what these guys are rejecting.

 

[mmksparbud]

and the rebuttal you were offered dealt with the emphasis of the word used as per the lang. it was written in and you offered nothing in return. In addition, we talked about Rev. 20:10 where it says that beast and false prophets will be in torment forever and ever and I pointed out that false prophets are human beings, again, no response to my rebuttal....we also looked at the difference between the words used....
αἰών aiṓn, ahee-ohn'; from the same as G104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):—age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
and...
χρόνος chrónos, khron'-os; of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay:—+ years old, season, space, (X often-)time(-s), (a) while.

and no rebuttal...see, you and some others here are not discussing or debating, some of you all are simply stating what you believe and then accusing the rest of us of unkind and false things. A debate or discussion means that you address the rebuttals issued against your position, you know, like all the questions I have asked but got no answer for.

I put nothing in the Sodom argument because I found it that lame, but let's look at the word used....I found Jude 1:7 feel free to present others, where we are told they were an example...notice nothing about the period of time being an example or anything else about it being an example, only the wrath of God or justice of God being the example.when we look at verse 6 the word eternal means....
ἀΐδιος aḯdios, ah-id'-ee-os; from G104; everduring (forward and backward, or forward only):—eternal, everlasting.

which would remove a shorter period of time than eternal from the possible meaning....

Now, since you want to talk about Sodom and Gomorrah, let's look at Matthew 10:15 where the passage suggests that Sodom and Gomorrah are not annihilated as in none existence completely, but that they will still face judgment that is yet to come after they were destroyed. This then would bring further doubt to the annihilation argument. If you want to go on, you need to present a rebuttal of more than just a repeat of your position? as you have been shown in scripture, God has created unquenchable fire that does NOT consume completely. My position is and always has been that we cannot be certain from scripture exactly the nature of the fire in hell other than it is unquenchable by God's definition not ours. see, you haven't reconciled anything, all you have done is repeat your position. to reconcile the passages you have to show more than just your opinion of what it should say. Like for example the unquenchable fire. where from a standpoint of man that may be a valid argument (weak but valid) from the standpoint of God and scripture you have been shown that arguement is invalid. In order to reconcile the passages you need to offer something valid from scripture that challenges the definition God has shown us when He says unquenchable and since man is no God, man's definition isn't gonna cut it. I want a rebuttal backed by scripture that challenges the rebuttals you have been given. It's called discussion or debate and should be widely understood from people who come to this forum to discuss or debate. WEll...two things 1. it should matter because this is a discussion/debate about the topic of eternal hell, iow's if you don't care about discussing the topic and are just dismissing disagreement because you have no argument to present why are you here? As I understand internet terms, that would make you a troll wouldn't it? I mean it's cool to acknowledge that it is okay to disagree but if you don't want to discuss/debate but go to a thread about discussing/debating the topic that seems problematic to me. 2. In the hell version I have shown in scripture and no one has challenged yet, still waiting and hoping, hell is eternal torment but God is not "barbaric despot who torments people forever over a finite matter" which might mean that you don't know Him like you think you do....just saying, that would be what your comments there suggest.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Bottom line to me is this---everything is caste into the lake of fire---hell and death. This is the 2nd death. It doesn't say this is the 2nd eternal life burning in hell. This is where I get bogged down. I will quote a verse that answers the question but the question goes on as thou it wasn't answered. You don't want to believe this--hell and death are done away with---There will be no more death, no more hell. Over and done. No more. You can go on about this or that , doesn't matter. Hell is done away with.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
This is not plural, the devil, the false prophet.

 

[Major1]

Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

It doesn't say they will be punished only for rejecting Christ---everything they did is written down and they will answer for them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are those that accepted Christ---but they did not do His will.

God bless you brother. I can see that you are sincere in your heart. However you are mixing up your theology.
I say that with all due respect to you.

Allow me to show you what I mean. First of all, the book of the Revelation can not be used to verify Church doctrine.
There is NO church in the Revelation after chapter #3 so therefore doctrine is no there.

Now Rev. 20:12 is concerning the unbelieving wicked lost dead of all the ages. It does not matter one bit what their works were, they are guilty because they rejected Christ. ALL of them will go to the lake of fire. Granted, some will be tormented MORE than others because their sin was greater. Yes, there will be degrees of torment in the lake of fire but the point is, ALL will be in the Lake of Fire for rejecting Christ.

You see my brother, people do not go to hell because they are liars or murderers or adulterers and so on. This is not true. People go to hell because they are guilty of sin. The only way to escape hell is to be innocent of sin, and the only way to be innocent of sin is to accept Christ’s atonement. That is not opinion or my thinking but it is instead the Word of God. Men are not even condemned because they don’t believe. They are condemned already. Belief is the only thing that can save them from their condemnation. Their failure to believe simply allows them to reach the destination they were already headed for hence the word "SAVED". Believers are saved from the coming judgment of Christ and all the ones in Rev. 20:12 are the condemned wicked lost.

Now in Rev. 20:11-15 which you are using is actually the "Great White Throne Judgement". John's focus is on judgment here, not salvation: those whose names are not written in the book of life will not live. They will die forever in the lake of fire and DEATH here mean seperation. John has already told us who they are in 13:8 and 17:8....
"the inhabitants of the earth" who worshiped the beast and the dragon. Now that the beast and false prophet and the dragon are in the lake of fire (v. 10), their followers must inevitably join them there.

Not because they did evil deed but because they rejected Christ, therefore their names are not recorded in the lambs book of life in verse #12.

 

[mmksparbud]

God bless you brother. I can see that you are sincere in your heart. However you are mixing up your theology.
I say that with all due respect to you.

Allow me to show you what I mean. First of all, the book of the Revelation can not be used to verify Church doctrine.
There is NO church in the Revelation after chapter #3 so therefore doctrine is no there.

Now Rev. 20:12 is concerning the unbelieving wicked lost dead of all the ages. It does not matter one bit what their works were, they are guilty because they rejected Christ. ALL of them will go to the lake of fire. Granted, some will be tormented MORE than others because their sin was greater. Yes, there will be degrees of torment in the lake of fire but the point is, ALL will be in the Lake of Fire for rejecting Christ.

You see my brother, people do not go to hell because they are liars or murderers or adulterers and so on. This is not true. People go to hell because they are guilty of sin. The only way to escape hell is to be innocent of sin, and the only way to be innocent of sin is to accept Christ’s atonement. That is not opinion or my thinking but it is instead the Word of God. Men are not even condemned because they don’t believe. They are condemned already. Belief is the only thing that can save them from their condemnation. Their failure to believe simply allows them to reach the destination they were already headed for hence the word "SAVED". Believers are saved from the coming judgment of Christ and all the ones in Rev. 20:12 are the condemned wicked lost.

Now in Rev. 20:11-15 which you are using is actually the "Great White Throne Judgement". John's focus is on judgment here, not salvation: those whose names are not written in the book of life will not live. They will die forever in the lake of fire and DEATH here mean seperation. John has already told us who they are in 13:8 and 17:8....
"the inhabitants of the earth" who worshiped the beast and the dragon. Now that the beast and false prophet and the dragon are in the lake of fire (v. 10), their followers must inevitably join them there.

Not because they did evil deed but because they rejected Christ, therefore their names are not recorded in the lambs book of life in verse #12.

That's sister!!
And if God says they are punished according to their works, then that is what will be. Evil works are sins.