The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[Bible Highlighter]

Interesting. You quoted Revelation 20:10:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Remember that the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the Lake of Fire when Jesus returns (Revelation 19:20). Then a thousand years passes with Satan bound and unable to deceive anyone (Revelation 20:2-3). Then Satan is let out and he deceives many into coming up to attack Jerusalem (Revelation 20:7-9). Then Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire where the beast and false prophet are. When Satan arrives, the pair have been in the Lake of Fire already for more than a thousand years and yet they are still there. And the latter part of the verse indicates that they will be tormented in the fire forever and ever. Why don't you just believe what the Bible says?

The tormenting does not take place after they die. The tormenting takes place during the time while they are worshiping the beast. For they couldn't sleep because they were all covered in painful boils (See Revelation 16:2).

But what about the words "forever"?

Well, elsewhere in the Bible, we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15.

For it says,

"For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;" (Philemon 1:15 KJV).

This is talking about Onesimus. Here is what it says in the New Living Translation,

15 "It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever.
16 He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord."
(Philemon 1:15-16 NLT).

In other words, Onesimus did not return to his master for all eternity here upon this Earth. Onesimus is not still alive. He is not an immortal or anything of that nature. He was mortal and he died. So to assume that the word "forever" and it's related words always means forever does not work. Meaning, one has to re-examine what they believe the word "forever" means based on the context.

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[razzelflabben]

There is not passage that says man is "not" a body, soul, and spirit. There is also no verse that says he is. However, Moses gives us an explanation of how God created man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

Note that man was created from the dust of the ground. That is what he is. Then God breathed His breath or spirit of life into the man and the man "became" a living soul. The word became means to come into being. The man was not a living soul prior to his receiving the breath or spirit of life from God. If one is to claim that man is anything more than this one must prove it from Scripture.

Moses also recorded God's words to Adam.

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen. 3:19 KJV)

How much clearer could it be? God said to Adam, 'you are dust.' He didn't say, you are spirit living in flesh body. He didn't say you are composed of three parts. He said, 'you are dust.' It's clear in the passage that the dust body was created before the man received the spirit or breath of life from God and became a living soul.

This is what these guys are rejecting.

still avoiding the passages presented I see....

 

[Luke17:37]

The phrase, "forever and ever" is a superlative. It doen's mean eternity.

You used a nice $2 word there, but you dispute the clear meaning of the Biblical text.

Here's another one:

Matthew 25:41, 46
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

And another:

Revelation 14:9-11
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

 

[Luke17:37]

The tormenting does not take place after they die. The tormenting takes place during the time while they are worshiping the beast. For they couldn't sleep because they were all covered in painful boils (See Revelation 16:2). But what about the words "forever"?

Well, elsewhere in the Bible, we see the word "forever" clearly used in a temporal sense in Philemon 1:15.

For it says,

"For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever;" (Philemon 1:15 KJV).

This is talking about Onesimus. Here is what it says in the New Living Translation,

15 "It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever.
16 He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord."
(Philemon 1:15-16 NLT).

In other words, Onesimus did not return to his master for all eternity here upon this Earth. Onesimus is not still alive. He is not an immortal or anything of that nature. He was mortal and he died. So to assume that the word "forever" and it's related words always means forever does not work. Meaning, one has to re-examine what they believe the word "forever" means in relation to the Greek word "Gehenna", i.e. the Lake of Fire (Which is translated in the English as "hell").


...

Read my latest post.

The painful boil is just the start of their pain, which will not end. Do you believe in eternal life with Jesus? You have no problem believing that Christians will live with Jesus forever and ever, I imagine. Yet you have a hard time believing that God is that serious about punishing sin.

Onesimus is a brother in Christ forever to Philemon. They live in the presence of God, although their bodies are buried in the ground still. (Yet they will rise at the resurrection of the dead in Christ, when He comes.)

May God open your eyes.

 

[Butch5]

Easily done.

Revelation 6:9-10 (NKJV)
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"

If humans have no immortal soul that survives death, how do the souls of these Christian martyrs come to be in heaven crying out to God before the resurrection of the dead at Christ's return?

Luke 20:37-38 (NKJV)
37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."

But Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob are all dead. This means either that God is not the God of these men (which Scripture contradicts flatly) who are dead, or that these men are in some sense still alive. But for these men to be alive without their physical bodies, which is what this passage plainly implies, they would have to have an immaterial nature that survives the death of their physical body (an immortal soul).

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 (NKJV)
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

If there is no immortal soul that exists beyond the death of the physical body, how can the Lord bring with him those who sleep? He doesn't resurrect the dead until verse 16 but he is bringing people with him in verse 14. What's going on here? The obvious explanation is that Jesus is bringing the departed souls of the righteous dead with him to be reunited with their bodies in the resurrection. No other explanation makes sense.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (NKJV)
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Paul is here clearly indicating that it is possible to be absent from one's physical body and still exist (in the presence of the Lord). But how could this be possible without an immaterial nature that survives physical death? How can one be absent from one's body and yet present with the Lord if the soul does not survive the death of the body?

What does the Bible teach about the human soul?

1. It is distinct from the physical body, yet intimately connected to it and dwelling within the body. (Ps. 31:9; 131:2; Isa. 10:18; 26;9; Matt. 10:28)
2. It experiences and expresses sorrow, bitterness, joy, love, anguish, vexation, discouragement, etc. (Gen. 34:3; 42:21; Nu. 21:4; Deut. 6:4, 5; Ju. 16:16; Job 3:20; Ps. 35:9)
3. It is capable of choosing and remembering. (Job. 7:15; La. 3:20)
4. It may, as a unique, personal entity depart, and return to, the physical body that housed it. (Gen. 35:18; 1Ki. 17:21, 22)
5. As a term, used interchangeably in Scripture with the term "spirit." (Isa. 26:9)

Genesis 2:7 (NKJV)
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Ron Rhodes observes,

"It is true that in the Old Testament, the Hebrew word for soul (nephesh) can be used in reference to a living being. Genesis 2:7 is clearly an example of this. But because the word can be used in this sense does not mean that it is limited to this sense, or that man does not have an immaterial nature...Indeed, Genesis 2:7 is telling us what man is (a living being), not what he is not. In other words, while Genesis 2:7 affirms that man is a living being, it does not deny in any way that man has an immaterial nature." ("Reasoning from the Scriptures" by Ron Rhodes. pg. 308)

Genesis 35:18 (NKJV)
18 And so it was, as her (Rachel's) soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin.

1 Kings 17:21-22 (NKJV)
21 And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the Lord and said, "O Lord my God, I pray, let this child's soul come back to him."
22 Then the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived.

In both these passages the soul is not identified as merely an animating energy that came from God and is returned to Him. When Rachel dies in childbirth it is her soul that departs her body, not God's life-force. When Elijah calls upon God to revive the dead boy he asks, not for God to give the boy some of His divine life-energy, but specifically for the boy's soul to be returned to his body. It is "the soul of the child" that comes back to the child's dead body and causes its revival, not merely the animating breath of God.

Both passages also clearly differentiate between the soul and the body. In both passages the soul continues to exist beyond the decease of the body.

Matthew 17:1-3
1 Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
2 And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

How is the appearance of Moses and Elijah, who were dead for centuries before their appearance with Christ, possible? If there was only an animating energy that returned to God when they died rather than their unique, immaterial souls, how are they speaking with Jesus on the mountain? Apparently, it is possible after physical death to exist as a distinct spiritual entity capable of speech and possessing a discernible form.

Luke 23:46-47
46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.' "Having said this, He breathed His last.
47 So when the centurion saw what had happened, he glorified God, saying, "Certainly this was a righteous Man!"

The word "spirit" here is translated from the Greek word "pneuma," which has a variety of meanings in Scripture: wind, breath, life-spirit, soul, the spirit as part of the human personality, the spirit of God, the spirit of Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Context rules out most of these meanings. It doesn't make sense for Jesus to commend his "wind" or "breath" to the Father. It doesn't make any better sense for Jesus to be committing "the spirit of God" or the "Holy Spirit" to the Father. From a plain reading of the passage it is clear Jesus is committing his immaterial human soul or spirit to the Father.

Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

How could being dead and thus non-existent be "gain" to Paul? Clearly, he did not think the "gain" of which he was speaking was the extinction of his soul with the death of his body, but the departure of his soul from his body to be with Christ. And Paul is not speaking here of a future resurrection. The aorist infinitive ("to live") is linked by a single article with a present infinitive ("to be with Christ"). Thus the infinitives belong together.

"The single article ties the two infinitives together, so that the actions depicted by the two infinitives are to be considered two aspects of the same thing, or two sides of the same coin." - (Reasoning from the Scriptures with Jehovah's Witnesses, Ron Rhodes, pg. 317.)

And so on.

Selah.

Elephant Hurling is a logical fallacy. Since you only need one passage of Scripture to show I'm wrong please pick your strongest evidence and I'll address it. Then we can move down the list.

http://www.astorehouseofknowledge.info/w/Elephant_hurling

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Read my latest post. May God open your eyes.

I updated my post.
Oh, and may God open your eyes, as well.
And may His love shine upon you greatly.


...

 

[Butch5]

You used a nice $2 word there, but you dispute the clear meaning of the Biblical text.

Here's another one:

Matthew 25:41, 46
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

And another:

Revelation 14:9-11
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Despite what you find in dictionaries the word cannot mean eternal. It is used all over Scripture for periods of time that ended. There are parts of the Mosaic Law that are said to be forever, however, Jesus and Paul both said the Law ended. How can a translator translate a passage and say it is forever when Jesus and Paul both said it ended?

 

[Butch5]

still avoiding the passages presented I see....

Still playing games I see!

 

[razzelflabben]

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Bottom line to me is this---everything is caste into the lake of fire---hell and death. This is the 2nd death. It doesn't say this is the 2nd eternal life burning in hell. This is where I get bogged down. I will quote a verse that answers the question but the question goes on as thou it wasn't answered. You don't want to believe this--hell and death are done away with---There will be no more death, no more hell. Over and done. No more. You can go on about this or that , doesn't matter. Hell is done away with.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
This is not plural, the devil, the false prophet.

now, wait just one moment...the passage in Rev. 20:14 was presented to the poster who said that hell would be remade with the new heaven and new earth...iow's done away with when the new heaven and new earth were destroyed. As I showed in this passage that is not what the passage says, what it says is that death and hades/bosom of Abraham are thrown into the lake of fire. Now, where it is true that some people equate hell to hades/bosom of Abraham, that is not consistent with the cultural understanding of the day nor the translation issues. So what we have is death and the waiting area (so to speak) are thrown into the lake of fire...now, we need to reconcile that against Rev. 20:10 so that our context is in tack...notice that it says that 1. they are caste into the lake of fire, aka hell not the bosom or abraham/hades. But even if we want to ignore that, death and hades/bosom of Abraham are caste into the lake of fire just 4 verses down...so even if we want to ignore literary rules we still see that the lake of fire or hell is holding the beast (satan) and the false prophets...now quick side note, I pointed out several times over that the false prophets in scripture are always human beings so this passage clearly tells us by adding false prophets that human beings will inhabit the lake of fire....now, go on, what does it say? where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Now I know some of you all refuse to accept the wording here but you have been shown and have not refuted that this means eternal when we look at translational understanding of the text.

So there are three huge, glaring things that were brought out that you need a rebuttal for but refuse to provide,
1. where in scripture does it say that hades/bosom of Abraham are the same thing as the hell/lake of fire they are thrown into.
2. where in scripture do we ever see a false prophet that is NOT human
and
3. how when the word used here differs from the word meaning season or age or period of time does it mean season or age or period of time when the writer repeats the word to emphasis the meaning of longer than season, age, period of time. IOW's the construct of the lang. the passage was written in emphasises the word used for forever to make sure that the reader understands that this is a longer period of time than just a season or age or period of time, but rather to clarify for us that the meaning intended is eternal.

I look forward to your rebuttal of these three issues with your claims, numbering them might help us follow what you want to argue against.

 

[Luke17:37]

Despite what you find in dictionaries the word cannot mean eternal. It is used all over Scripture for periods of time that ended. There are parts of the Mosaic Law that are said to be forever, however, Jesus and Paul both said the Law ended. How can a translator translate a passage and say it is forever when Jesus and Paul both said it ended?

Matthew 5:17-18
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

 

[razzelflabben]

That's sister!!
And if God says they are punished according to their works, then that is what will be. Evil works are sins.

that is kind of what he said, just in a funny or somewhat confusing way...notice he says that we are condemned already, that is based on our works...Christ alone can change that....

 

[razzelflabben]

I only got through a couple of these before I realized that your argument isn't making any sense in relation to the passages and to make matters worse you are still ignoring the passages you were asked to address.

 

[razzelflabben]

I don't know what you studied. However, I have shown repeatedly what I've stated.

we all know what you have stated and it doesn't make sense with the passages you were repeatedly asked to refute but refuse to.

You have not yet shown any passage of Scripture that shows that man consists of three parts. You talk about using common literary terms. I did that using the word became. It means to come into being. If something comes into being, it did not exist before it came into being. The man was created "BEFORE" the soul came into being. So, using common literary terms I have refuted your claim that man consists of three parts. The soul cannot be part of man if man existed before the soul.

actually several of us have, but apparently you aren't interested enough to read them and comment on them. And no, your fondness for the word became does nothing at all to question man having three parts.

 

[razzelflabben]

The phrase, "forever and ever" is a superlative. It doen's mean eternity.

actually, in the Greek repeating the word gives emphasis or magnifies the meaning of the word...so forever and ever means time and time again, most of the time the understanding of time and time again is forever...that is just how the Greek works. You know, common literary rules of comprehension.

 

[Butch5]

Matthew 5:17-18
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law. Did He do that?

 

[razzelflabben]

The tormenting does not take place after they die. The tormenting takes place during the time while they are worshiping the beast. For they couldn't sleep because they were all covered in painful boils (See Revelation 16:2).

...

that clearly says torment on earth whereas the passage in question clearly states torment in the lake of fire aka hell

 

[Butch5]

actually, in the Greek repeating the word gives emphasis or magnifies the meaning of the word...so forever and ever means time and time again, most of the time the understanding of time and time again is forever...that is just how the Greek works. You know, common literary rules of comprehension.

I'm quite aware of how it works. Thanks for proving my point. You said, "most of the time the understanding of time and time again is forever." Just because that's how it's understood doesn't mean it correct.

 

[razzelflabben]

Despite what you find in dictionaries the word cannot mean eternal. It is used all over Scripture for periods of time that ended. There are parts of the Mosaic Law that are said to be forever, however, Jesus and Paul both said the Law ended. How can a translator translate a passage and say it is forever when Jesus and Paul both said it ended?

actually as you have been shown repeatedly there are two different words used both of which are being translated eternal when the meaning of the words does not support this but why bother with what scripture really says, right?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Scriptures say the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

Jesus fulfilled the Law portion of the Law and the Prophets (because the temple veil was torn from top to bottom), but the Prophets part (prophecy) of the Law has yet to be fulfilled.


...

 

[razzelflabben]

Still playing games I see!

please explain how my refuting your opinion using scripture and you refusing to offer a rebuttal of my posts is me playing games? I'm really interested to know how that makes logical sense.