The Dispensational Place of I, II, and III John

[redleghunter]

Since you are unwilling to answer those questions, your belief about how one is saved becomes vague to me.

It’s late. But I don’t know how you come to this conclusion. Perhaps you have someone else in mind when responding to me.

I don’t know how much more I can state we are saved by the Grace of God through faith.

More tomorrow by God’s Grace.

 

[Guojing]

It’s late. But I don’t know how you come to this conclusion. Perhaps you have someone else in mind when responding to me.

I don’t know how much more I can state we are saved by the Grace of God through faith.

More tomorrow by God’s Grace.

Have a good rest. When you say you are "reformed", do you mean a "reformed Baptist" aka you follow the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith?

You confused me when you claimed that the OT saints were saved because their faith led them to do the correct works. You are including works into faith, so how can salvation for them be by faith alone?

So my clarifying question to you is simply, if they had the faith but chose not to do the works, will their faith be enough to save them? But you decline to answer that.

That is why I came to the conclusion that you are keeping your stand vague.

 

[redleghunter]

Since you are unwilling to answer those questions, your belief about how one is saved becomes vague to me.

I answered your questions several times.

You created an unnecessary dichotomy. The fact is all saints old and new believed the promises of God and because they trusted Him acted according to His Will and Purpose. That’s God Inspired Revealed fact.

No sir you have it wrong. The same laboring for what people trusted in the OT is the same in the NT. The 11 Apostles and the Apostle Paul labored for the Gospel, planted churches and were persecuted for not only what they said but what they did.

Paul spends a lot of ink telling the churches how much he had labored for the Lord. His labor was not salvific but the results of:

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”

You are creating a dichotomy which is not present in Holy Scriptures.

There is nothing we do to save ourselves. There is nothing we do to “keep” our salvation. We are Justified, Sanctified and will be Glorified by Grace through faith. All the Finished Work of Jesus Christ.

“But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.” (Galatians 3:11)

And cover to cover in the Bible those who lived by Faith did not sit on their hands. They acted on the promises and commands of God.

The difficulty with our exchange is you are not considering and responding to my comments but for some reason ignoring them. It might be polite to at least address what I write.

 

[redleghunter]

If I interpret you correctly, the problem with such an argument like "Works do not cause salvation but works follow after salvation, otherwise one is not really saved" is pretty much a circular argument.

I did not make that claim. I presented Ephesians chapter 2:8-10 to refute your false dichotomy.

Ephesians 2: NASB

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

Verse 10 speaks of the believer as being the workmanship (regenerated) created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared for us so that we would walk in them. This is will and purpose of God for each one who is born again. The evidence of the aforementioned is observing OT and NT saints who demonstrated they were new creations as in "the just live by faith."

Therefore, your "Works do not cause salvation but works follow after salvation, otherwise one is not really saved" is a flawed straw man when we observe the Holy Scriptures. Those who believe, meaning live by the very regenerative saving faith God graciously gave them, live by that faith. No one can claim any reward or boast in living by faith because it is God Who regenerates and it is God Who saves, and it is God Who makes us His workmanship.

The argument flows like this

You only need to believe to be saved, no works required.

But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe.

Yet, you only need to believe to be saved, no works required.

That indeed is the straw man you erected and I have now knocked down three times.

You can't have your cake and eat it. You either believe it is faith alone without works that save, or you believe that its faith AND works that save.

Once again you raise up that false dichotomy.

If there must be works after you are saved, to prove that your faith is true saving faith, then its equivalent to saying if works are not present, then one is not saved. This is modus tollens.

You created the modus tollens all on your own. You are not comprehending what I am presenting or purposely presenting canned arguments which do not fit my responses. Please respond to what I actually write back to you.

 

[redleghunter]

Maybe a final question then, since you may have missed this earlier

"And since we are in the subject of the Tribulation too, if someone then put his faith in Jesus's death burial and resurrection at the beginning, but somewhere in during the Trib, decided to take the mark of the beast, would God still considered him saved?"

Do you think this question is also absurd? Is it very difficult for you to state your opinion on this?

Sure I'll state my opinion but first need to know a bit more about this 'faith' in the quoted above.

Is your hypothetical person God's elect?

 

[redleghunter]

You confused me when you claimed that the OT saints were saved because their faith led them to do the correct works.

I made no such claim. I simply pointed out Biblical fact. The OT saints as with the NT saints lived by faith.

You are including works into faith

Nope.

so how can salvation for them be by faith alone?

Because they lived by faith.

So my clarifying question to you is simply, if they had the faith but chose not to do the works, will their faith be enough to save them? But you decline to answer that.

I decline to answer hypotheticals based on a straw man. Your hypotheticals amount to "have you stopped beating your dog yet?"

I deal in facts and the Inspired and Revealed Holy Scriptures showed us those who believed in the promises of God acted according to their faith. They did so because they believed. If Abraham did not pack up camp and move from his home town, it means he really did not believe in God's promise to him.

But Abraham did, and we know he did and Paul used Abraham to show us what saving faith is:

For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (Romans 4:16)​

That is why I came to the conclusion that you are keeping your stand vague.

It may be vague to you as I navigate the hypotheticals and straw men while you have yet to directly respond to any of my posts.

 

[Phil W]

The point is not whether those works did happen. But if they had not done those works, would God considered them saved? Is it very difficult to answer that hypothetical question of mine? I am asking for your opinion, you need not worry whether it is right or wrong.

It seems your definition of saving/active/obedient faith is faith accompanied by works?

As for Paul he explicitly stated a number of times that, for us now under the grace dispensation, we show faith in God by ceasing from our works.

"BUT NOW the righteousness of God without the law is manifested" (Rom. 3:21);

"To him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Rom. 4:5);

"Being Justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:24);

"In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7);

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" (Tit. 3:5);

"Not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9) -

When God now says this, what will faith do? Faith will say, "This is the most wonderful offer ever made by God to man. I cannot refuse it. I will trust Christ as my Savior and accept salvation as the free gift of God's grace."

However, that option of ceasing from your works was not available in the OT. Abel, Rahab, Noah had to show their faith in God by their works. This was what James was also referring to in that famous chapter 2.

You do realize, I hope, that Paul's references to 'works' were about the works of the Mosaic Law, and its requirements for salvation, ie. circumcision, dietary laws, clothing laws etc.
Too many perceive 'works' as any obedience to God BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH.
I got baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of my past sins because I had faith that God's ways would provide for my sanctification.
Is that works for salvation to you?
Or is it standard obedience to the exhortations of the apostles?

 

[Phil W]

Since you are unwilling to answer those questions, your belief about how one is saved becomes vague to me. You seem to be following the popular saying that "You are saved by faith alone but faith that saves is NEVER alone."

If I interpret you correctly, the problem with such an argument like "Works do not cause salvation but works follow after salvation, otherwise one is not really saved" is pretty much a circular argument.

The argument flows like this

You only need to believe to be saved, no works required.

But if you don't show works after you are saved, you are not really saved, because it shows you don't really believe.

Yet, you only need to believe to be saved, no works required.

You can't have your cake and eat it. You either believe it is faith alone without works that save, or you believe that its faith AND works that save.

If there must be works after you are saved, to prove that your faith is true saving faith, then its equivalent to saying if works are not present, then one is not saved. This is modus tollens.

That makes work a necessary condition for salvation, which you avoid saying.

What you really need to do is give an example or two of the works you are discussing.
Works: circumcision, dietary laws, clothing laws, feast keeping etc.
Or is works: repentance from sin, baptism, obedience to God, loving your neighbor as you love your self?

 

[~Zao~]

You do realize, I hope, that Paul's references to 'works' were about the works of the Mosaic Law, and its requirements for salvation, ie. circumcision, dietary laws, clothing laws etc......
is it standard obedience to the exhortations of the apostles?

What does the bolded mean in relation to works?

 

[Guojing]

I answered your questions several times.




The difficulty with our exchange is you are not considering and responding to my comments but for some reason ignoring them. It might be polite to at least address what I write.

I thought you already stated that Paul's labor for the Lord is not for his salvation. I agree, this discussion was always about whether works were required to show faith for salvation during the OT. I am not saying that saved people should not do works.

That is why I felt there was no need to reply to your points about Paul since I agree with you he did a lot of works.

 

[Guojing]

You do realize, I hope, that Paul's references to 'works' were about the works of the Mosaic Law, and its requirements for salvation, ie. circumcision, dietary laws, clothing laws etc.
Too many perceive 'works' as any obedience to God BECAUSE OF THEIR FAITH.
I got baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of my past sins because I had faith that God's ways would provide for my sanctification.
Is that works for salvation to you?
Or is it standard obedience to the exhortations of the apostles?

His definition of Law includes the 10 commandments so its not just mosaic law. Romans 7:7 made that clear. His point is that we are dead to the Law after we accept Jesus's DBR, which includes the 10.

 

[Guojing]

What you really need to do is give an example or two of the works you are discussing.
Works: circumcision, dietary laws, clothing laws, feast keeping etc.
Or is works: repentance from sin, baptism, obedience to God, loving your neighbor as you love your self?

If you have not been following this thread. I gave 3 examples from Hebrews 11 about the works that Abel, Noah and Rahab did. Those are the works I am illustrating. Did the OT saints had to do those works to show their faith?

 

[Guojing]

I made no such claim. I simply pointed out Biblical fact. The OT saints as with the NT saints lived by faith.

And I am saying that for us now, we believed in Jesus's DBR and cease from our works and we are saved.

For the OT saints, not only they had to believe in God, they had to do the correct works in response to that faith, to get saved. To me its clear why they had to do works, they did not have the benefit of us having Jesus to finish the works for them.

Ultimately, as Hebrews 11 stated, those works they did pointed to Jesus I agree, but those works must still be done by them.

Both of us lived by faith in God yes, but thanks to Jesus dying for us now, we can cease from works for salvation, while they cannot.

Faith required works in the OT but now for us, its faith apart from works. You seem to agree with this, since you decline to answer those what you claim hypothetical leading questions about works, and yet you cannot state clearly your agreement.

 

[Guojing]

Sure I'll state my opinion but first need to know a bit more about this 'faith' in the quoted above.

Is your hypothetical person God's elect?

When you mentioned the term elect, I will think that you are a reformed Baptist. Is that correct?

 

[Guojing]

If Abraham did not pack up camp and move from his home town, it means he really did not believe in God's promise to him.

Thus, what you are trying to say that if faith does not result in works, then it shows you don't really have faith and thus you are not saved. Even though it is still faith alone apart from works that save.

That is the same circular argument form I was pointing out to you earlier.

 

[redleghunter]

And I am saying that for us now, we believed in Jesus's DBR and cease from our works and we are saved.

For the OT saints, not only they had to believe in God, they had to do the correct works in response to that faith, to get saved. To me its clear why they had to do works, they did not have the benefit of us having Jesus to finished the works for them.

Ultimately, as Hebrews 11 stated, those works they did pointed to Jesus I agree, but those works must still be done by them.

Both of us lived by faith in God yes, but thanks to Jesus dying for us now, we can cease from works for salvation, while they cannot.

Faith required works in the OT but now for us, its faith apart from works. You seem to agree with this, since you decline to answer those what you claim hypothetical leading questions about works, and yet you cannot state clearly your agreement.

Paul used the example of Abraham for a reason. He was before the Law.

For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

 

[redleghunter]

When you mentioned the term elect, I will think that you are a reformed Baptist. Is that correct?

Makes no difference. The term God’s elect is Biblical.

Therefore, no God’s elect will not willingly take the mark.

 

[redleghunter]

Thus, what you are trying to say that if faith does not result in works, then it shows you don't really have faith and thus you are not saved. Even though it is still faith alone apart from works that save.

That is the same circular argument form I was pointing out to you earlier.

No for the fourth time what I’m saying is in both the OT and NT the just lived by faith.

 

[Guojing]

Makes no difference. The term God’s elect is Biblical.

Therefore, no God’s elect will not willingly take the mark.

Is that a yes to my question that you are a reformed Baptist?

 

[redleghunter]

Is that a yes to my question that you are a reformed Baptist?

Yes