The Dispensational Place of I, II, and III John

[Guojing]

No for the fourth time what I’m saying is in both the OT and NT the just lived by faith.

If you truly believe that, then you will have to believe that Abel would still have been saved if he did not offer the correct sacrifice, Rahab would still have been saved if she did not hide the spies. Noah would still have been saved if he did not build an ark.

Yet you decline to give a clear answer to those questions

 

[Guojing]

Yes

Finally you gave a direct answer. =)

Okay I understand much better why our discussion is along these lines. I did discuss similar issues with another who believed in the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith and it was a similar kind of vague back and forth with him.

Those who hold on to the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith find it impossible to separate belief from doing, due to their notion of the elect.

 

[redleghunter]

If you truly believe that, then you will have to believe that Abel would still have been saved if he did not offer the correct sacrifice, Rahab would still have been saved if she did not hide the spies. Noah would still have been saved if he did not build an ark.

Yet you decline to give a clear answer to those questions

You may not think you are getting a clear answer from me because I do not believe hypotheticals teach good theology. Observation of what is fact is where we all should start. Thus my line of argument.

The malefactor on the cross next to Christ in a 6 hour period went from a son of perdition to a child of God. We know this because he confessed Jesus as King and confessed he was a sinner but most importantly we are certain because Jesus promised the man he would be in paradise with Him that day.

The man had nothing to offer Christ but his humble and contrite request.

 

[redleghunter]

Finally you gave a direct answer. =)

Okay I understand much better why our discussion is along these lines. I did discuss similar issues with another who believed in the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith and it was a similar kind of vague back and forth with him.

Those who hold on to the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith find it impossible to separate belief from doing, due to their notion of the elect.

It has nothing to do with predestination. It has to do with observing the facts.

For the Reformed it is more a matter of Regeneration. From this sovereign act of God all good things and blessings flow.

 

[redleghunter]

Finally you gave a direct answer. =)

Now your turn. Where does your church hail from?

 

[Guojing]

Now your turn. Where does your church hail from?

Its a charismatic church, we believe in tongue speaking, healing etc. Is that also a denomination? I am not too sure. We definitely interpret the bible in a dispensational manner though.

 

[redleghunter]

Its a charismatic church, we believe in tongue speaking, healing etc. Is that also a denomination? I am not too sure. We definitely interpret the bible in a dispensational manner though.

Thanks. What type of Dispensational doctrine do you adhere to?

 

[Guojing]

It has nothing to do with predestination. It has to do with observing the facts.

For the Reformed it is more a matter of Regeneration. From this sovereign act of God all good things and blessings flow.

Yep, from what I understand, Reformed Baptists have a very "different" notion of free will.

They subscribe to total depravity of Man, where no man can make the "choice" of responding to Jesus's gift of salvation unless God has first elected him for salvation.

 

[Guojing]

Thanks. What type of Dispensational doctrine do you adhere to?

I am a Mid Acts Dispy, but I think my senior pastor is Acts 2.

 

[redleghunter]

Yep, from what I understand, Reformed Baptists have a very "different" notion of free will.

They subscribe to total depravity of Man, where no man can make the "choice" of responding to Jesus's gift of salvation unless God has first elected him for salvation.

According to Ephesians 1, election was before the foundations of the world. If anyone tries to explain that other than it’s God’s Sovereign design, be wary of them.

What is important to communicate in the Doctrines of Grace is that God makes that first move. He removes the heart of stone with a heart of flesh. Straight out of Ezekiel 36:22-32

 

[Guojing]

According to Ephesians 1, election was before the foundations of the world. If anyone tries to explain that other than it’s God’s Sovereign design, be wary of them.

What is important to communicate in the Doctrines of Grace is that God makes that first move. He removes the heart of stone with a heart of flesh. Straight out of Ezekiel 36:22-32

Well, one thing people must realize is that truth is often subjective depending on which denomination your church is from. Its like asking a fish to explain what water is, its extremely difficult for the fish to do so.

Nevertheless, if reformed baptists cannot imagine a concept other than total depravity, I can understand why they also find it difficult to imagine that Abel, Noah and Rahab, for example, can make the free will choice not to do those works that are described in Hebrews 11.

To them, I think they tie those works irrevocably to their faith.

 

[Phil W]

What does the bolded mean in relation to works?

Some folks consider acts done because of our love of God as works for salvation.
They will say that they are saved already so one lie, theft, murder won't really mater.
I disagree completely with that view.
First, salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement, so any and all sin done after an alleged conversion will be up for review by God. The names of those who served sin instead of God will not be found written in the book of life. We can only serve one master.
Second, if one infers that he is a child of God, the seed of God precludes sin.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes. God' seed cannot bring forth evil fruit-sin.
Third, the works Paul referred to were the works of the Mosaic Law...circumcision, dietary laws, clothing laws, feast keeping etc.
Not repentance from sin or baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins.

 

[Phil W]

His definition of Law includes the 10 commandments so its not just mosaic law. Romans 7:7 made that clear. His point is that we are dead to the Law after we accept Jesus's DBR, which includes the 10.

Yes, indeed.
I didn't want to write out all 400 something examples.
So, do we refrain from telling lies..."for salvation"?
Yes!
That law is written in our new creature's heart.

 

[Phil W]

If you have not been following this thread. I gave 3 examples from Hebrews 11 about the works that Abel, Noah and Rahab did. Those are the works I am illustrating. Did the OT saints had to do those works to show their faith?

Thanks for clearing that up.
Though I can't remember you asking 'me' about Heb 11, my answer is "Yes" they do".
How can one say they have faith in God and still doubt Him?

For the NT folks...
God's word says..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Where is the faith of those who don't seek the escapes from temptation?

 

[Guojing]

Some folks consider acts done because of our love of God as works for salvation.
They will say that they are saved already so one lie, theft, murder won't really mater.
I disagree completely with that view.
First, salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement, so any and all sin done after an alleged conversion will be up for review by God.

This is implying that no one can be sure of their salvation, until they are assessed based on works by God during the final judgement.

Is that what you are really implying?

 

[Guojing]

Thanks for clearing that up.
Though I can't remember you asking 'me' about Heb 11, my answer is "Yes" they do".
How can one say they have faith in God and still commit doubt Him?

For the NT folks...
God's word says..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Where is the faith of those who don't seek the escapes from temptation?

So in short, you believe that salvation requires faith AND works. Is that correct?

 

[Phil W]

And I am saying that for us now, we believed in Jesus's DBR and cease from our works and we are saved.

For the OT saints, not only they had to believe in God, they had to do the correct works in response to that faith, to get saved. To me its clear why they had to do works, they did not have the benefit of us having Jesus to finish the works for them.

Ultimately, as Hebrews 11 stated, those works they did pointed to Jesus I agree, but those works must still be done by them.

Both of us lived by faith in God yes, but thanks to Jesus dying for us now, we can cease from works for salvation, while they cannot.

Faith required works in the OT but now for us, its faith apart from works. You seem to agree with this, since you decline to answer those what you claim hypothetical leading questions about works, and yet you cannot state clearly your agreement.

I do pray the works you mention are things like circumcision, dietary laws, feast keeping etc. and not repentance from sin, baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of sins and ongoing obedience to God.

 

[Phil W]

This is implying that no one can be sure of their salvation, until they are assessed based on works by God during the final judgement.

Is that what you are really implying?

Exactly.
But I don't know what you mean by "Based on works by God".
What works of God do you mean?
Judgement?
Or are you saying, "until they are assessed , based on (their) works, by God during the final judgement."
And we will indeed be judged by God based on our works.
Sin is a "work" we will be judged for.

 

[Phil W]

So in short, you believe that salvation requires faith AND works. Is that correct?

They are inseparable.
It is written..."Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." (Mark 9:23)
Do you believe you can live life without lying?
Do you have faith to believe Jesus?
Keep in mind, please, that I see "works" as circumcision, dietary laws, clothing laws, and feast keeping, etc.

 

[Guojing]

They are inseparable.
It is written..."Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." (Mark 9:23)
Do you believe you can live life without lying?
Do you have faith to believe Jesus?
Keep in mind, please, that I see "works" as circumcision, dietary laws, clothing laws, and feast keeping, etc.

To me, "works" is anything that one does beyond believing in Jesus's death burial and resurrection for justification.

Okay, in your view, salvation requires you to believe in Jesus and also more than that.

Your "more than that" includes water baptism and other commandments correct? Can you give me a rough idea what those commandments are to you?