The Demise of Evolution

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OldWiseGuy

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"Appearance" is just the superficial outlook. The Sun appears to move across the sky. But in reality the motion is due to the rotation of the Earth. It took the effort to look beyond the superficial appearance to find that out.
The continents appear to be fixed, but beyond the superficial appearance they move due to plate tectonics.

Look at this youtube video

Apparantly coins can vanish from a closed fist or appear out of thin air. Go through tables etc. But that's appearance. With a closer look this turns out not to be the case.

So you wrote correctly; there is an appearance of design. But scientists have been looking and are looking beyond the appearance. They probe reality if what appears to be really is that or way or if something else is going on. This requires knowledge, discipline, stamina, critical thinking. This requires tools and techniques like telescopes, microscopes, seismographs, Geiger counters, electrophoresis, X-ray crystallography, particle accelerators and so on.

So if you chose to limit yourself to the world of the superficial outlook, the appearance, that's fine. That's your choice. But don't tell me that that is all there is. I and we have seen beyond the veil.

Some things are what they appear to be. The end product of "evolution" appears to be purposefully designed things.
 
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Speedwell

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Or maybe it's the one element that evolutionists can't face. If design is acknowledged there must be a designer.
That dog won't hunt. Too many evolutionists believe in God for that to make sense and too many creationists reject ID. No, ID is just bad science and bad theology.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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That dog won't hunt. Too many evolutionists believe in God for that to make sense and too many creationists reject ID. No, ID is just bad science and bad theology.

When I peruse anatomy books I see complex, elegant, purposeful design. I can't 'unsee' that. And although evolution is mentioned here and there they aren't riddled with evolutionary theory. One can focus on the organisms alone and draw unbiased conclusions.
 
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Speedwell

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When I peruse anatomy books I see complex, elegant, purposeful design. I can't 'unsee' that. And although evolution is mentioned here and there they aren't riddled with evolutionary theory. One can focus on the organisms alone and draw unbiased conclusions.
Complex and elegant I can understand. But how do you see purpose? What does it look like?
 
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OldWiseGuy

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In what way is it obvious?

Tell me, what characteristics do we ONLY find in designed things that we NEVER find in things that weren't designed?

I believe everything was designed, even rocks.
 
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pitabread

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When I peruse anatomy books I see complex, elegant, purposeful design. I can't 'unsee' that.

That's because it's an emotional response.

It's similar to watching a movie or reading a book and having a positive emotional response to it. You can't "unfeel" that.

However, it's not something which is objectively demonstrable. You can't make someone else objectively enjoy something if they don't have the same emotional reaction.

Just like your claims that you see "complex, elegant, purposeful design" by reading anatomy books isn't objectively demonstrable. If someone else doesn't see the same design, they aren't going to think that biological organisms have that complex, elegant, or purposeful design.

(And let's be honest here, if life really were deliberately designed, there are a lot of questionable design choices. :p)

And although evolution is mentioned here and there they aren't riddled with evolutionary theory. One can focus on the organisms alone and draw unbiased conclusions.

What you are suggesting is the opposite of unbiased. In fact, it sounds like the perfect example of confirmation bias.
 
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driewerf

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Some things are what they appear to be.
Correct. But you need to investigate for finding this out;
The end product of "evolution" appears to be purposefully designed things.
Rightly so. And this is in direct contradiction with what you wrote earlier:
Intelligent design is obvious. No need to prove it in a laboratory.
Since the end products of evolution gives the appearance of design, design isn't obvious. You'll need to test this somehow.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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That's because it's an emotional response.

It's similar to watching a movie or reading a book and having a positive emotional response to it. You can't "unfeel" that.

However, it's not something which is objectively demonstrable. You can't make someone else objectively enjoy something if they don't have the same emotional reaction.

Just like your claims that you see "complex, elegant, purposeful design" by reading anatomy books isn't objectively demonstrable. If someone else doesn't see the same design, they aren't going to think that biological organisms have that complex, elegant, or purposeful design.

(And let's be honest here, if life really were deliberately designed, there are a lot of questionable design choices. :p)



What you are suggesting is the opposite of unbiased. In fact, it sounds like the perfect example of confirmation bias.

There's nothing especially emotional about studying anatomy books.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Correct. But you need to investigate for finding this out;

Rightly so. And this is in direct contradiction with what you wrote earlier:

Since the end products of evolution gives the appearance of design, design isn't obvious. You'll need to test this somehow.

Note that evolution was in quotes.

Design is often comprehensive, like the ability of a turtle to right itself through the most unnatural and awkward movements. Most organisms are able to gesticulate in ways unnecessary to normal functioning, including motions that may never be used. I don't think evolutionary development is that comprehensive.
 
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pitabread

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There's nothing especially emotional about studying anatomy books.

You've previously told us that you just go with gut feel on this stuff. Similarly you've appealed to "obviousness" in lieu of objective analysis when it comes to concluding design.

These are examples of emotional responses/arguments.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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You've previously told us that you just go with gut feel on this stuff. Similarly you've appealed to "obviousness" in lieu of objective analysis when it comes to concluding design.

These are examples of emotional responses/arguments.

It's just the way I see it. No need for psychoanalysis.
 
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