The Day the Dinosaurs Died

Jimmy D

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Again...saying that it is a "quack site" doesn't make it a quack site.

Correct, this makes it a "quack" site.....

By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record. Of primary importance is the fact that evidence is always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information.

Statement of Faith

By their own admission they will ignore or dismiss any evidence that contradicts their religious views. It's a propaganda site, pure and simple.
 
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blackribbon

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Papias invited you to discuss any of the specific points on there.

On where? I don't believe in a flat earth, I know HIV leads to AIDS, etc....but I do believe in creation and don't believe that their are scientist out there that still blindly accept that life came from some non-living event. That goes against everything we know about living organisms.
 
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Jimmy D

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I beg to differ. It is a scientific organization (yes, complete with qualified SCIENTISTS) who happen to believe that God exists. Most of science involves faith (believe in something that we can't actually see or prove) but backs its beliefs with proof.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it an invalid source.

Don't take my word for it, feel free to check their articles against valid scientific sources.
 
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blackribbon

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Correct, this makes it a "quack" site.....

By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record. Of primary importance is the fact that evidence is always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information.

Statement of Faith

By their own admission they will ignore or dismiss any evidence that contradicts their religious views. It's a propaganda site, pure and simple.

Actually, that says they have faith that no evidence can be provided that goes against the scriptural record.
 
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Jimmy D

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On where? I don't believe in a flat earth, I know HIV leads to AIDS, etc....but I do believe in creation and don't believe that their are scientist out there that still blindly accept that life came from some non-living event. That goes against everything we know about living organisms.

Focus Blackribbon, you posted an article from AIG about how radiometric dating is wrong, Papias kindly offered to discuss any of their points with you.
 
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Papias

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Again...saying that it is a "quack site" doesn't make it a quack site.

What is the tool used to verify that the dating done to date is correct? There has to be a way to verify your evidence otherwise is simply a theory back by faith....faith that the original measurement is good.

First off all, one method has already been explained to you - the physics shows that it's correct (no faith needed), including experiments on the decay rates.

Understanding even a couple of the dozens of methods takes years of college education - so we aren't going to be able to explain them all to you in a few messages on a chatboard. It's classic Dunning-Kruger for you to think that you can doubt the methods out of sheer ignorance. If you really want to know, pick a method and we can explain, give resources, and after that you can enroll in a local University to continue learning that one method. As with all dating methods, careful methodology and examination and cross-testing of any assumptions are very important in that method, whether radioactive or not.

However, a wider point is also very relevant, and more accessible, regardless of Dunning-Kruger (perhaps).

And that's the agreement of all the dating methods. Luckily, we don’t have to rely on the results of a single dating method. There are well over forty different dating methods, both radioactive and non-radioactive, including geomagnetic polarity, Ar-Ar, dislocation content, Re-Os, fission track, coral layer, speleotherms, varves, historical documents and many more. Some are not even based on material from Earth, such as the helioseismic dating of the Sun. As shown in an earlier post, they overlap in the ages that are testable, allowing the same rock or artifact to be tested by many different methods to see if they all agree with each other on the ages of many different samples.

These kinds of tests have been done on method after method, confirming that they give accurate ages. For instance, an arrow found in lake sediment could be tested by dendrochronology (of the wooden shaft), amino acid racemization (of the sinew windings), obsidian hydration (of the arrowhead), varves (of the lake sediments it was found in), thermoluminescence (of the windings), and so on. If these different methods all gave the same age (their ranges overlapped) then it’s very likely this age is correct. It's really hard to imagine several different methods just happening to all give the same "wrong" answer, isn't it? Creationists are left saying that a bunch of different methods, that all give the same answer, are likely to be just "happening" to all agree? So I always ask them how that is, and they can’t answer.

An example for them – I ask: Isn’t the agreement of even just three methods pretty powerful evidence? I mean, if a smashed clock at a car wreck was stuck at 5:32, a witness says she heard the crash just The Walking Dead was starting - and it starts at 5:30, the nearby security camera taped the crash at 5:28, and a receipt with a time of 4:56 was found in the car, wouldn't it be hard to suggest a time other than around 5:30 for the crash? That's only 3+ pieces of evidence (the receipt only indicates a time after 4:56), and though the measurements don't agree exactly (5:28 isn't exactly the same as 5:32), they all are consistent with a crash near 5:30. In the real world, sample after sample, in place after place, hundreds of times, dates are shown to be consistent.

In practice, the dating methods are usually tested over dozens or hundreds of samples from the same series, using two or more methods for comparison (instead of the single artifact example above). For instance, series of layered deposits in a cave may be tested simultaneously by U-Th, speleotherm, and 14C dating, with each sample giving an age using each of the three methods, with the results agreeing. In this way, many thousands of tests have confirmed these dating methods, giving us a very useful clock for our understanding of the history of our Earth.


Here is one example of data showing agreement between several methods.
c14FairbQSR05.gif

http://www.geo.arizona.edu/palynology/geos462/c14FairbQSR05.gif Radiometric Dating


The key is that their creationist source is just throwing stones a single dating method. That won’t do it – the creationists have to explain why dozens of different methods, based on often completely different phenomena, tested over thousands of tests on hundreds of samples – all “just happen” to agree with each other.

That's why this type of deep-time denying creationism violates our 9th commandment, in addition to making it harder to bring people to Christ.

In Jesus' name-

Papias
 
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blackribbon

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Focus Blackribbon, you posted an article from AIG about how radiometric dating is wrong, Papias kindly offered to discuss any of their points with you.

I didn't get that from his speech. Okay...how do scientists who believe the earth is millions of years old verify that their dating methods are accurate? If the machine says something is 2 million years old...what is used to verify the calibration of anything that old?

And out of curiosity, what is Papias educational/professional background so I know who I am talking with...
 
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Radrook

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From what I can remember the tsunamis and firestorms didn't affect the whole globe. It was the debris that the impact threw into the atmosphere which blocked out the sunlight -preventing photosynthesis with catastrophic effects on the food chain.

Obviously some plants could survive and animals that could eat seeds, insects roots etc.

* I'm just recalling the program here, I'm sure google would yield a more accurate explanation.

Crocodiles and alligators ate seeds and roots?
 
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Papias

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Um...I have. And what is your science background again? Or do you just blindly believe what you read?

No, I don't blindly believe stuff on science.

There are two types of disbelief in ideas that are proposed.

In one case, the scientific community is not in consensus on the topic. In that case, it's reasonable to come to a conclusion either way, and argue it.

In the other case, the scientific community has reached consensus on a topic, based on millions of pieces of evidence. In that case, to take the other position reasonably requires one to become an expert in the field (including getting a degree), then study thousands of pieces of evidence for decades, and make arguments based on the evidence. To disagree with the scientific consensus without doing all that makes one a crackpot, a crybaby, a liar, or simply an irrational and ignorant person.

Science as reached a consensus on evolution, our common ancestry with all life, and the geologic time scale, just as they have with other basic facts, like gravity, the spherical earth, atoms, & germs. To agree with the scientific consensus on any of those doesn't require one to have any scientific credentials (which is why I'm not claiming any). To disagree with any of them requires the work in the blue text above.

If you disagree with that, you can start by telling me why you accept the scientific "theory" of atoms.

Just as importantly, do you now start to see how the different dating methods confirm each other?

In Christ-

Papias
 
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Colter

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Subduction is downward movement....not upward movement.



Aww....the ultimate debate tool...name calling without backing it with evidence. Usually used when the debater has run out of anything factual to contribute.

And I agree with you...that just because someone has a doctorate does not mean their beliefs are facts....but that ball bounces back at the scientists that you believe. I do say that a doctorate does add more credibility to the debate because those aren't easy to get. Now who witnessed or reproduced any evidence to prove your scientific beliefs which form them into facts?
Subduction is part of the common phenomenon in mountain formation. If you are uneducated in Mountain formation you may start with subduction. Subduction - Wikipedia

One source that I often cite is Dr. Weins a Christian at Los Alamos Radiometric Dating
 
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Jimmy D

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Crocodiles and alligators ate seeds and roots?

LOL good question, I thought about that as I wrote it, hence the asterisk at the bottom of the quote. I would guess that it's because they're unfussy scavengers and can go for long periods with out food?
 
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blackribbon

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I am fading out and have to get to bed because I work tonight. I will read your explanation deeper when I have a clearer head ... but again, just because you have 3 different rulers all measuring similar measurements doesn't prove that any of the rulers is correct. What are you using to calibate the original measurements? You can't use one of the rulers that you are trying to prove is correct.
 
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miamited

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Hi all,

Well, my understanding is that we don't really know why dinosaurs are no longer with us. We can guess and surmise and work out possibilities, but we can't really know what happened to them There are a number of ideas. One being that the flood wiped them out and for whatever reason, they didn't return. Another, as is postulated in the referenced article on this thread, some cataclysmic force of the heavens destroyed them. A third is one that explains that the dinosaur 'kind' were reptilian in their growth and that we do still have the dinosaurs with us, but because of shorter life spans they don't grow to the sizes that they were several thousand years ago.

However, the bottom line to all of this is that we just don't know and honestly have no way of knowing. The book of Job does describe a creature that fits the bill of some large dinosaur like creature. If Job was written after the flood, then it's possible that the dinosaur creatures did survive the flood in the same way that all the other creature survived the flood. God could well have sent two of them in their very young age when being on the ark wouldn't have been a problem, as to their great size. It's possible that all of the two by two that God sent to Noah to carry on the ark may well have been young specimens. This would offer an explanation as to how lions and tigers and bears, oh my, could have lived for an extended period of time without incident. Most cub aged animals are pretty playful and non-threatening.

But, let me be clear that all of these are just possibilities. According to this site: Interactive map of every dinosaur fossil found on Earth | Daily Mail Online
there have been dinosaur bones found around the world. The article mentions some 7900 sites. Honestly, to me, a cataclysmic event of a heavenly nature that affected the entire globe in such a way seems fairly unlikely. An event such as that to happen on one side of the earth that would destroy the plant growth on the other side of the earth to the point that living creatures would not be able to survive for a week or two without food just seems pretty preposterous to me. The loss of sunlight from a debris cloud wouldn't mean there was no food. The trees would still stand tall with all their foliage and it would likely be some time before there was no food because of the loss of sunlight.

Could a debris cloud really hover over the entire earth for such an extended period of time? We've had volcanic eruptions that cause such things, and admittedly they are of a much smaller scale, but...

What would the impact have to be to hold back the sunlight long enough for all the existing food to be used up or die off and no new plant food being produced.? It would seem to me that such a cloud of debris would have to last for months. If that is true, then why don't we see some truly large sign of such an impact. The only supposed meteor impact topographic evidences that I've seen don't really look to me like they could have caused such an outcome as the sun being blotted from the sky for weeks or months all across the earth.

The Vredefort crater, at 118 miles across is the largest crater that is believed to have been caused by some meteoric strike. It is in South Africa. While that's certainly going to throw up a lot of dirt and debris, could that really darken the sun all around the earth so as to kill off the plant life that would have sustained the dinosaurs? The next largest is known as the Sudbury basin in Ontario, Canada and it is 81 miles across. Again, a large amount of debris, but it is dated to have happened 200,000 years later. So, it's not like they struck at the same time and together blotted out the sun for an extended period of time. Although being nearly opposite each other on the earth, if they had happened at the same time it would provide a more likely scenario that might allow that the sun was blocked for an extended period of time. Generally, volcanic ash is much lighter than dirt and so the debris kicked up by a meteoric strike wouldn't be expected to stay airborne as long as a volcanic ash cloud.

So, needless to say, I'm just having a hard time accepting such a scenario that some meteor strike would have destroyed the food chain in a manner that would cause death all across the earth. Maybe, maybe not.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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blackribbon

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Subduction is part of the common phenomenon in mountain formation. If you are uneducated in Mountain formation you may start with subduction. Subduction - Wikipedia

One source that I often cite is Dr. Weins a Christian at Los Alamos Radiometric Dating

Um...Wiki? Really? but one thing at a time...and again, your expertise before I go reading your links.
 
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Papias

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but again, just because you have 3 different rulers all measuring similar measurements doesn't prove that any of the rulers is correct. What are you using to calibate the original measurements? You can't use one of the rulers that you are trying to prove is correct.

No, we have thousands of measurements, from different methods, confirming the same ages. You asked what we are using to calibrate the original measurements? Well, in addition to the confirmtion across methods, many of the younger methods are also confirmed by historical records. For instance, carbon 14 testing of a book dated 1209 gives that age, etc. The same goes for dendrochronology - such as the dating of wood from a church built in 688 gives that age, etc. And then those two methods agree with others that reach back farther, etc.

I am fading out and have to get to bed because I work tonight. I will read your explanation deeper when I have a clearer head ...

Sleep well.

In Christ-

Papias
 
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Colter

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Um...Wiki? Really? but one thing at a time...and again, your expertise before I go reading your links.
My expertise? I'm a dental technician, I haven't claimed to be an expert. But I do have common sense.

Wiki is a quick summery of topics for people who are not aquanted with the basics. You will find numerous sources on the topic of geology, plate tectonics and archeology at your local library.
 
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blackribbon

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So if I actually dig through the complicated chemistry (I kind of find chemistry boring) involved in this, no one really is capable of answering any questions or discussing it...they are just going to send me to scientists they believe make sense and trash the scientists I believe make sense? (or worse...wiki)
 
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blackribbon

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My expertise? I'm a dental technician, I haven't claimed to be an expert. But I do have common sense.

Wiki is a quick summery of topics for people who are not aquanted with the basics. You will find numerous sources on the topic of geology, plate tectonics and archeology at your local library.

wiki can be a good source for fast shallow knowledge but it isn't ever considered a credible source... (want to fail a college paper, try putting wiki in your bibliography) I am sure I can find a better basic knowledge site. Ironically, I am being sent to wiki for knowledge while people are claiming AIG is a quack site in spite of the long list of credible scientists that work with them.
 
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