The CREATOR vs Evolution and why upholding the Sabbath is SO Important

[BobRyan]

His defense was the Lord of the Sabbath has the authority to serve on the Sabbath. True or False?

Indeed and his proof is the creation fact for mankind and the Sabbath and the relationship between Sabbath and mankind.

How is this not incredibly obvious for you?

Jesus relies on the fact that God's Sabbath is made FOR mankind instead of mankind made FOR the Sabbath in the Creation historic account to make His point in Mark 2 about what is valid to do on the Sabbath.

even you quote it.

Mar 2:27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

 

[SabbathBlessings]

How many times must we delve into your comments that are not true?

Only by partially quoting Mark 2:27 you can make that shameless claim.
There are 3 accounts of this incident in the bible. (Mat 12:1–8; Mar 2:23–28; Luk 6:1–5 ) If you read them you should know more details. True or False?
Mar 2:27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: ( You highjack what's in red and ignore the rest)
In context of Mark 2:27, "Who is them?" We can read that Jesus was being accused by Pharisees of breaking the Sabbath. True or False"
His defense was the Lord of the Sabbath has the authority to serve on the Sabbath. True or False?
By Jesus adding: "not man for the Sabbath" Jesus is saying that Sabbath exist for man and not the other way around. True or False?
By you changing 'man' to 'Mankind' your narrative is false self-serving your objective.
"Sabbath at creation" is made by this fictitious fraud.

The Greek word Jesus used for man in Mark 2:27 is this:

ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos)
Noun - Nominative Masculine Singular
Strong's 444: A man, one of the human race. From aner and ops; man-faced, i.e. A human being.

Using mankind as a descriptive for humans is correct.

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Man came first. Man was created before the first Sabbath Genesis 1:26-27 God made man in the image of Himself, we are made to follow Him. Right after man was created, was the very first Sabbath in the presence of God. Genesis 2:1-3 the way it was intended before sin entered. Once sin and sinners are no more, man will once again be worshipping the Lord in His presence for all eternity Isaiah 66:23 God's will for His children is the same in heaven as it is on this earth, which is why God wrote His will for us on stone Psalms 40:8 and now in our hearts and minds Hebrews 8:10 I would not change your mind on what God placed there to be a blessing so we can honor the one true God. Isaiah 58:13-14

 

[Cribstyl]

What we do find in the NT is God writing His laws in the hearts and minds of His people. Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16 and you would need to prove that the Sabbath is not a commandment of God and not part of His laws, when God identifies the Sabbath as a commandment, personally written by His own finger. Exodus 32:16, Exodus 31:18 Exodus 20. Exodus 20:6, Exodus 20:8-11 and that we cannot add or subtract from Deut 4:2 which is why we see Jesus keeping and teaching from His Fathers commandments including the Sabbath which He kept His whole life as our example. John 15:10, Luke 4:16

Every time we see keeping the commandments of God in the NT this includes the Sabbath commandment.

Exodus 20:6 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

In the unit of Ten God identified the Sabbath as one of His commandments Exodus 20:8-11 to suggest otherwise is not arguing with man.

Ok, to look at the facts in Heb 8:10, 10:16 we'd probably agree that Jer 31: 31-34 is the source of the whole prophesy. True or False?

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Jeremiah is talking about 2 covenants, 1 will be new, the other was made coming out of Egypt. True or False?
We'd probably disagree with the fact that the "words" of Old Covenant is the ten commandments. True or false?
We'd probably disagree with the fact that the New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant. True or False?
Dying on the cross for the world beats written with His fingers to the Children of Israel. True or False?

God's prophesy is fulfilled if the 2 commandments that Jesus gave is written on our hearts. True or False?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Ok, to look at the facts in Heb 8:10, 10:16 we'd probably agree that Jer 31: 31-34 is the source of the whole prophesy. True or False?

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Jeremiah is talking about 2 covenants, 1 will be new, the other was made coming out of Egypt. True or False?
We'd probably disagree with the fact that the "words" of Old Covenant is the ten commandments. True or false?
We'd probably disagree with the fact that the New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant. True or False?
Dying on the cross for the world beats written with His fingers to the Children of Israel. True or False?

God's prophesy is fulfilled if the 2 commandments that Jesus gave is written on our hearts. True or False?

I think the first part of understanding the first and second covenant is to understand the definition of covenant. The covenant is not a set of laws it is an agreement between two people.

cov·e·nant
[ˈkəvənənt]

NOUN
an agreement

God said He would write His laws in the New Covenant Hebrews 8:10, so its in error to think we can now worship other gods, bow to idols, vain God's holy name profane God's holy Sabbath day, not honor our parents, murder covet or any other of God's commandment now written in the heart and mind of His people. It's the same laws, based on better promises.

Which is why Jesus teaches directly from His Father's commandments and quotes from them directly and condemns those who break these commandments in lieu of mans rules. Matthew 15:3-9

Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of sin when transgressed. If there was no law there is no transgression so Jesus would have died in vain if we are able to sin freely. Sin is breaking God's law and Paul points right to the Ten as defining sin when breaking Romans 7:7 and says what matters is keeping the commandments of God. 1 Cor 7:19

You did not prove that the Sabbath is not a commandment of God, instead of dealing with that you are going the circular route. This really is not about who can make a better argument, in the end, what matters is are we doing the will of God. God wrote His will with His own finger and spoke with His own voice, personally wrote it on stone and now placed it in our hearts and minds. Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit so we can obey His commandments John 14:15-18 so we can keep in harmony with God's will. Psalms 40:8, Hebrews 8:10.

 

[Cribstyl]

Indeed and his proof is the creation fact for mankind and the Sabbath and the relationship between Sabbath and mankind.

How is this not incredibly obvious for you?

False, Jesus is talking about: Sabbath being made for a man to enjoy rest not to punish a man for not keeping it exact.
Jesus not saying that Sabbath was made for mankind at creation, that would contradict the fact that Sabbath was a sign of the covenant between God and the Children of Israel.
When you isolate partial texts, you can highjack the subject in scripture, so that your comments can fly.
There should be a feeling of shame for being caught taking scriptures out of context.

 

[BobRyan]

His defense was the Lord of the Sabbath has the authority to serve on the Sabbath. True or False?

Indeed and his proof is the creation fact for mankind and the Sabbath and the relationship between Sabbath and mankind.

How is this not incredibly obvious for you?

Jesus relies on the fact that God's Sabbath is made FOR mankind instead of mankind made FOR the Sabbath in the Creation historic account to make His point in Mark 2 about what is valid to do on the Sabbath.

even you quote it.

Mar 2:27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

False,

In this case even you included that detail in your own post. so then... "True"

Mar 2:27And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for mankind, and not mankind made for the Sabbath:

Jesus is talking about: Sabbath being made for a man

Indeed and He is pointing to the right use of it based on the fact that it was "MADE FOR MANKIND" when both the Sabbath and mankind were made in Genesis - 7 day creation week. - which brings us to the topic of this thread in the title.

Your statement above destroys your entire argument - the fact that you want to focus on this Mark 2:27 text is greatly appreciated since it only works to destroy your argument that the Sabbath was not at all "made for mankind| -- and each time you post that point above - you further destroy your own premise.

How is this even a little but hidden from view -- we can all see it??

You need a different solution.

Until then - let's look at the full Mark 2:27 quote - I love it!!


Mar 2:27And he said unto them, The Sabbath was made for mankind, and not mankind made for the Sabbath:

Christ's statement obvious references the making of BOTH mankind AND the Sabbath -- and the only place we see that in scripture is the 7 day creation week in Gen 1-2 and in Ex 20:11 -- this is irrefutable.

No wonder these Christian groups strongly affirm the TEN (all TEN) as included in the moral law of God applicable to all mankind - even when you find this detail "inconvenient" to your posts.

Jesus not saying that Sabbath was made for mankind at creation,

Sadly for that speculation - this is exactly what He says in Mark 2:27 as He points to the making of BOTH mankind AND the Sabbath as we see in Genesis1-2 according to Ex 20:11

How did you miss this?

that would contradict the fact that Sabbath was a sign

No it would not.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth ...

Obedience to the Word of God was supposed to be a key signature of Israel

of the covenant between God and the Children of Israel.

The NEW Covenant writes the LAW Of God on heart and mind Jer 31:31-34
"Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 is prefaced with the fact that God delivered Israel from Egypt in Ex 20:1

These truths don't "cancel each other out" as you seem to suppose.

An obvious Bible detail that even these Christian groups strongly affirm as they point out that all TEN of those commandments are for MANKIND

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II

 

[BobRyan]

When you isolate partial texts, you can highjack the subject in scripture

Your expansion of Mark 2:27 to its full quote only dug the hole deeper for your suggestions so far - as was pointed out in my full quote of it here - #61 then again here #66 -- . Careful what you wish for. It is explained in detail in those posts how this further refutes the suggestions you are making and even the Christian groups listed note this strong affirmation of all TEN - for all mankind.

Were we simply not supposed to notice how this has failed your argument for that text???

There should be a feeling of shame for being caught taking scriptures out of context.

IF you were able to show that the meaning has changed you might have a point - so far all you are doing is further destroying your own argument against the Sabbath when we look at the full Mark 2:27 quote -- - how in the world is that making your case in the least?

Are you reading the posts???

 

[BobRyan]

Ok, to look at the facts in Heb 8:10, 10:16 we'd probably agree that Jer 31: 31-34 is the source of the whole prophesy. True or False?

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Heb 8:6-12 contains the full quote of Jer 31:31-34 verbatim - unchanged. It reads the same in the NT as in the OT.

A key detail at this point

Jeremiah is talking about 2 covenants, 1 will be new, the other was made coming out of Egypt. True or False?

The old covenant is the nation covenant with Israel - it included things like "do not take God's name in vain" but also included promises of real estate in the middle east. etc.

The old Covenant is also a type of the covenant with man in Eden -- "obey and live" as Gal 3 points out. Under this covenant - all mankind is lost for all have sinned ad Rom 3:19-20,23 points out.

Consider reading section 19 of the Baptist Confession of Faith as per C.H. Spurgeon - that is so repeatedly referenced for you.

We'd probably disagree with the fact that the "words" of Old Covenant is the ten commandments. True or false?

False. We would agree that it contains tings like "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 as well as the rest of the TEN - as part of the nation covenant made with Israel. Where we differ is your effort to remove the commandments of God from the New Covenant even though Jeremiah says they are IN IT and Paul says as an example "Honor your father and mother" is the first commandment with a promise in that unit - and is still applicable to all mankind Eph 6:2

The Law of God is in both the nation Covenant to Israel AND in the Law known by Jeremiah and his readers to define sin and be written on the heart. And that LAW includes all TEN of the TEN Commandments as these Christian groups strongly affirm even when you find this detail "inconvenient" to your posts.

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II

We'd probably disagree with the fact that the New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant. True or False?

We agree that at the moral level, the Old Covenant with Israel as a nation becomes the "Obey and Live" covenant with each human under which all mankind is lost - as Gal 3 points out, as Rom 3:19-21 points out. It is only replaced when the individual accepts the Gospel - New Covenant.

And we agree that for the born again saved Christian the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 replaces the old covenant under which that person was formerly lost - according to Gal 3 and Rom 3:19-21. (OR at least we "should" agree)

God's prophesy is fulfilled if the 2 commandments that Jesus gave is written on our hearts. True or False?

The two commandments that Jesus GAVE in Deut 6:4 and Lev 19:18 were quoted by Jesus in Matt 22.

This is taken from what is called "The LAW of Moses"

Deut 6:4 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself"

In Matt 22 Jesus AND THE JEWS all agree that these are the foundation level commandments in the LAW of Moses - the greatest and form a firm platform upon which all the law and the prophets (all of scripture) is based.

Although you don't seem to approve, it is still another case where paying attention to all the pertaining details is best -- because details matter.

 

[BobRyan]

@Cribstyl you "appear" to want to make an argument against the Bible Sabbath POV of Sabbath keeping groups such as mine - which is fine. but you are stuck making arguments against practically all denominations in the Christian world as I keep pointing out for you.

Why not switch tactics? Just focus on the Bible Sabbath keeping groups who keep it on the 7th day of the week.

 

[Leaf473]

Well then so much for "Do no take God's name in vain" , "Honor your mother and father" etc.

Fine you have free will.

I choose scripture.

Eph 6:2
2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

And apparently so do these sources --

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II

I regret the long response time. My phone broke. I was able to get another one
(used on eBay for only $25 )
but it has its own set of issues. My current plan is to try to respond to all posts written to me, but there may be delays.
_________________
The principle of not taking God's name in vain is covered by "love one another as I have loved you".

If we are striving to love each other as Jesus loves us, then we don't dishonor God or people made in God's image by regarding the things of God lightly.

We want to "...put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator."

 

[BobRyan]

I regret the long response time. My phone broke. I was able to get another one
(used on eBay for only $25 )
but it has its own set of issues. My current plan is to try to respond to all posts written to me, but there may be delays.
_________________
The principle of not taking God's name in vain is covered by "love one another as I have loved you".

If we are striving to love each other as Jesus loves us, then we don't dishonor God or people made in God's image by regarding the things of God lightly.

We want to "...put on the new man, who is being renewed in knowledge after the image of his Creator."

Congratulations on getting back on with your new phone!

 

[Lulav]

Paul equates the Sabbath as being a shadow.

and he said this too:
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Then he tells us Jesus is the reality, Col2:16-17. The clinching part of the puzzle is Jesus words: Matt 11:27 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

You need to turn it around to the one who matters, the LORD GOD, it's about HIM not you.

Israel found physical rest for their bodies, but only through Jesus can we find true rest for both our bodies and souls. Some believe the Sabbath given only to Israel only points back to creation. Paul surely didn't and neither do I.

Then you both must be wrong or interpreting something incorrectly.
Israel resting on the Sabbath was not just for the body, it was for the soul as well. It was date day with the LORD, a time they could stop the day to day workings and only dwell on HIM. It was at an appointed time which also did another thing, it upheld in the earth who the True Creator was. It was not about Creation as you assume, it was and IS about the Creator.

How do we find this blessed REST? 1Jn3:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence:
believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

That is a rest for the soul, in abiding in him as he did with the Father.

 

[Lulav]

Ok, to look at the facts in Heb 8:10, 10:16 we'd probably agree that Jer 31: 31-34 is the source of the whole prophesy. True or False?

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Jeremiah is talking about 2 covenants, 1 will be new, the other was made coming out of Egypt. True or False?
We'd probably disagree with the fact that the "words" of Old Covenant is the ten commandments. True or false?
We'd probably disagree with the fact that the New Covenant replaces the Old Covenant. True or False?
Dying on the cross for the world beats written with His fingers to the Children of Israel. True or False?

God's prophesy is fulfilled if the 2 commandments that Jesus gave is written on our hearts. True or False?

Why is it some argue that the Sabbath keeping was only for Israel yet they claim that the New Covenant is for them when Jeremiah 31 plainly states it is for Israel and Judah?

 

[Lulav]

If God had intended for Gentiles to keep the seventh day Sabbath He would not have specified that it was given to the children of Israel, twice.
In the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia we find this.

Resh Laḳish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachidæ, inasmuch as "the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel alone," ​

GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Yes it becomes a territorial thing but those who join to Israel are entitled to keep it as well.

Whose New Covenant are you in? Jer 31 says it's only for Judah and Israel. Same Israel that keeps the Sabbath Holy.
You can't have one without the other .

 

[Der Alte]

Yes it becomes a territorial thing but those who join to Israel are entitled to keep it as well.
Whose New Covenant are you in? Jer 31 says it's only for Judah and Israel. Same Israel that keeps the Sabbath Holy.
You can't have one without the other .

Hebrews 12

 

[Lulav]

Why is it such a good thing Lulav? Has not the old covenant passed away and Jews are now part of the new covenant?

Parts have but the Sabbath is an eternal commandment because it upholds the True Creator.

Does not salvation come through belief in Jesus Christ? What good would Sabbath keeping be to those who fail to accept Jesus as Savior?

Did you know that Salvation is mentioned over 100 times in the OT and only less than half that in the NT?

The fact is there is nothing in the new covenant that would require anyone to observe the ritual commands of the old covenant.

Col2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Okay, you're going to pull out that old and tired argument of one person, so can you explain HOW these days are shadows found in the Messiah, but shouldn't be upheld today instead of all the pagan 'holi' days that are?

Here's a list for you

Sabbath
New Moon
Passover
Unleavened Bread
Firstfruits
Shavuot
Yom Terurah
Yom Kippur
Sukkot
Shemitah

So much advice given in the New Testament about not having to submit to the rituals of the Old Testament and yet we who love Jesus and love others as He loves us are trying to confuse us into believing we have to also abide by the rules of the old covenant. Some tell us we only have to keep the Sabbath, tithe and stay away from certain food. Others add we have to keep all of the festivals. I am not sure about the new moon.

Do you love God Bob? Do you trust him? Do you believe that he created all things, and as Yeshua said is the only one who is good?

There is a saying I believe would be in keeping with what Paul wrote. "It is not what we do, it is what Jesus has done for us." Our trying to work our way to Heaven is a work of futility yet one of the other groups teaches that unless we do as they teach, we will lose eternal life.

Again, this is a self serving admission. Do you love him? Then why don't you keep his commandments? Even Paul said they were good and HOLY.

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

I don't know where that is from but I don't believe that way. A bit odd you posted that.

 

[Lulav]

Hebrews 12

I see you didn't bother to answer. The NC is for Israel and JUDAH only.

I read through Hebrews 12 and see Nothing in there that even comes closes to answering the question posed.

And btw, who was the book written to? Hint: Hebrews.

 

[Der Alte]

I see you didn't bother to answer. The NC is for Israel and JUDAH only.
I read through Hebrews 12 and see Nothing in there that even comes closes to answering the question posed.
And btw, who was the book written to? Hint: Hebrews.

Hebrew Christians Hebtrews 3.

 

[BobRyan]

Why is it some argue that the Sabbath keeping was only for Israel yet they claim that the New Covenant is for them when Jeremiah 31 plainly states it is for Israel and Judah?

Good point - and Heb 8:6-12 makes the exact same claim for the New Covenant regarding Israel and Judah so it is not just the Old Testament

 

[Lulav]

Hebrew Christians Hebtrews 3.

How does chapter 3 answer this?

Lulav asked:Whose New Covenant are You in? ​

Jer 31 says it's only for Judah and Israel. ​

Same Israel that keeps the Sabbath Holy.​

You can't have one without the other .​