The CREATOR vs Evolution and why upholding the Sabbath is SO Important

[Cribstyl]

Bob Ryan:
and the disciples met "every day" in Acts 2 to break bread.

Yes they did meet to break bread. Led by the Holy Spirit and the disciples of Jesus Christ, the church began in Jerusalem on Pentecost. They did meet every day to preach the gospel and baptize those who believe.

But by contrast we see Paul along with believing gentiles and Jews in Sabbath services "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4

Disagree. God did promise the Jews would be the first recipients of the gospel. That's why the synagogue on Sabbath was the targeted location.

And it is gentiles asking for more Gospel preaching to be given to them "The NEXT Sabbath" in Acts 13.

Some people know that Jews and Gentiles had to share the synagogues under Pax Romana

 

[Cribstyl]

Getting it right would mean admitting that Jesus said "The Sabbath was made FOR MANKIND" not "just Israel" in Mark 2:27

That's a partial quote that leads to contradicting God who said that Sabbath is a covenant between Him and the Children of Israel.
Exo 31:12And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Getting it right would mean that in Gen 2:1-3 "All mankind" is just Adam and Eve - given the Sabbath as a holy day.
Getting it right would mean reading Is 56:6-8 where gentiles are specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping
Getting it right would mean reading Is 66:23 where we see that "from Sabbath to Sabbath ALL MANKIND" comes before God to worship for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.

All these scriptures are taken out of context for word content. What a scam.

 

[BobRyan]

Get it right. God spoke from Sinai and commanded The Children of Israel to keep the Sabbath.

Getting it right would mean admitting that Jesus said "The Sabbath was made FOR MANKIND" not "just Israel" in Mark 2:27
Getting it right would mean that in Gen 2:1-3 "All mankind" is just Adam and Eve - given the Sabbath as a holy day.
Getting it right would mean reading Is 56:6-8 where gentiles are specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping
Getting it right would mean reading Is 66:23 where we see that "from Sabbath to Sabbath ALL MANKIND" comes before God to worship for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.

Getting this part about all TEN still valid is what we see here

Christian denominations affirm the continued "unit of TEN"
[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]many others as well..

No wonder Christians today affirm the Ex 20:7 command against taking God's name in vain...

That's a partial quote

And yet it makes the point perfectly as noted above - and as almost all scholars in all major denominations admit (noted above)

that leads to contradicting God who said that Sabbath is a covenant between Him and the Children of Israel.

Not true.

In Is 56:6-8 gentiles are specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping
In Is 66:23 "all mankind" is the scope for Sabbath keeping
In Gen 2:1-3 it is Adam and Eve are "all mankind" and they are the ones that are there for Sabbath keeping (as Ex 2011 points out and as all Bible scholars noted above also agree.)

Your suggestion that each time the Bible notes this detail - it is contradicting God ... is a very weak argument and does not even work in the OT alone. Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

No matter the pejoratives you use in our post- it is not fixing the blatantly obvious problem your suggestions run into when it comes to the text of scripture.

Your idea that noticing these inconvenient Bible details "is a scam" is hard to justify in the case of an objective unbiased reader who look at details.

 

[BobRyan]

And it is gentiles asking for more Gospel preaching to be given to them "The NEXT Sabbath" in Acts 13.

Some people know that Jews and Gentiles had to share the synagogues under Pax Romana

No they did not. There are a number of cases in the NT where non-Christian Jews and Christians met separately.

The point remains.

 

[BobRyan]

But by contrast we see Paul along with believing gentiles and Jews in Sabbath services "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4

Disagree.

Then read it.
3 and because he was of the same trade he stayed with them, and they worked together, for they were tent-makers by trade. 4 And Paul was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

In Acts 18 we see that a number of gentiles were being converted in that effort - but they keep attending "every Sabbath" instead of a much-imagined "as they were converted they stopped attending Paul's Gospel services on every Sabbath"

God did promise the Jews would be the first recipients of the gospel

It does not say "trying to persuade Jews but not Greeks".

The problem with your "just Jews" suggestion is two fold:
1. The text flat our refutes it - showing that both Jews and Greeks were the target of that exercise.
2. The text has them preaching every week on Sabbath and not on both week-day-1 and Sabbath to show a shift where those converted switch to week-day-1.

And as I always remind you -- details matter.

 

[BobRyan]

Although some abandon the topic in the title of this thread that talks about the contrast between the Sabbath details for the doctrine on origins - vs the doctrine on origins that is preached in evolutionism, it still a good one to address.

 

[Leaf473]

I agree that the Law WAS good. God doesn't make laws that didn't/don't have a purpose. The fact is no one is living under the old covenant Laws. We are under the new and better covenant that has better promises. The old covenant was God's way of teaching the Israelites how to live and govern themselves. On their own they would not have had any idea how to form a government and make the multitude of former slaves "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation". (Taken from Moses' interview with God found in Ex19:6.) The Israelites failed to make this come to fruition thus the need for Jesus to come to this sin filled Earth to redeem all mankind. The whole scenario is referred to as the plan of salvation initiated before the foundation of the Earth. Every human is a player in God's plan. We are so fortunate to be able to trace God's plan and to be part of it.

Even though we are able to trace linage and events we are still left with so many unanswered questions like why was satan exiled to this planet to destroy so much of perfect creation and cause man to have a sinful nature?

Well, I think we both agree that we are not under any part of the law of Moses, including the fourth commandment.

And for that we can say Thank you, Jesus!

 

[BobRyan]

Well, I think we both agree that we are not under any part of the law of Moses

Well then so much for "Do no take God's name in vain" , "Honor your mother and father" etc.

Fine you have free will.

I choose scripture.

Eph 6:2
2 Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise),

And apparently so do these sources --

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II

 

[Lulav]

Reserving this space for part 2.

I apologize for taking so long to get back to this.

I have since updated the second post and wish that the discussion continue from Posts 1 & 2

Thank you!

 

[Lulav]

The only commandment given specifically to the children of Israel as a perpetual or everlasting covenant.

Exodus 31:16​

(16) Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.​

Leviticus 24:8​

(8) Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.​

Yes, and it's a good thing that Jews still today do remember it and point to the One true GOD, the one who created everything. Christianity however has not joined in this most important thing.

 

[Lulav]

Hey Lulav, I appreciate your perspective on history including why God gave The Children of God the Sabbath.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God

Does God have two different sets of Children? Are their true children and then adopted ones? Should they be two or one family?

Here are some more facts to check out.
Ex 12 is the last day of the Children of Israel being slaves in Egypt. God commands them to keep the Passover and about being circumcised.

Speaking of Exo 12, did you notice how many times it says that it is the LORD's Passover? Not the Jews, Not Israel's but the LORDS.

11 it is the Lord's passover.
27 It is the sacrifice of the Lord's passover
48 and will keep the passover to the Lord,

God commands them that the foreigners and strangers who joined them would have to keep Passover and circumcision. Sabbath was not given to them as yet. Ex16 is where Moses writes THE LORD HAS GIVEN TO YOU THE SABBATH.

Ah, No, that is not what it says. It says that those who want to keep it.

47All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. 48 And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. 49 One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.”​

All Israel was required to keep it, however a stranger (not one of the twelve tribes - i.e. Gentiles ) who chooses to keep it needs to be in the covenant that initiated with Abraham.

I have studied about the Sabbath from with some Jewish sources.

Shabbat - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

Learn about the Jewish sabbath and its observances. Includes a description of a typical sabbath and a recipe for cholent, a traditional Jewish sabbath dish.

www.jewfaq.org

I study from the Bible itself.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, and it's a good thing that Jews still today do remember it and point to the One true GOD, the one who created everything. Christianity however has not joined in this most important thing.

If God had intended for Gentiles to keep the seventh day Sabbath He would not have specified that it was given to the children of Israel, twice.
In the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia we find this.

Resh Laḳish (d. 278) said, "A Gentile observing the Sabbath deserves death" (Sanh. 58b). This refers to a Gentile who accepted the seven laws of the Noachidæ, inasmuch as "the Sabbath is a sign between God and Israel alone,"​

GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[Bob S]

Yes, and it's a good thing that Jews still today do remember it and point to the One true GOD, the one who created everything. Christianity however has not joined in this most important thing.

Why is it such a good thing Lulav? Has not the old covenant passed away and Jews are now part of the new covenant? Does not salvation come through belief in Jesus Christ? What good would Sabbath keeping be to those who fail to accept Jesus as Savior?

The fact is there is nothing in the new covenant that would require anyone to observe the ritual commands of the old covenant.

Col2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

So much advice given in the New Testament about not having to submit to the rituals of the Old Testament and yet we who love Jesus and love others as He loves us are trying to confuse us into believing we have to also abide by the rules of the old covenant. Some tell us we only have to keep the Sabbath, tithe and stay away from certain food. Others add we have to keep all of the festivals. I am not sure about the new moon.

There is a saying I believe would be in keeping with what Paul wrote. "It is not what we do, it is what Jesus has done for us." Our trying to work our way to Heaven is a work of futility yet one of the other groups teaches that unless we do as they teach, we will lose eternal life.

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Many agree that the 10 commandments are still good for today.

My quick and short answer is the Sabbath will still be in place for the eternity. The Law changes to the ones that covers immortals, even though the children born are eternal beings like Adam and Eve were in the garden before the fall. Remain sinless and the food would have kept them alive until the time when the tree of life is in the Eze:47 setting. At that time, they would remain alive without the need of food forever.
At the age of 120 God would make the children immortal by them coming from the Nation (star in the sky) they were born on to New Jerusalem as that is the only place the tree of life will be found. After that, they can visit anyplace in the universe all on their own (Similar to the visions in Enoch)
From Adam to Moses the law in place was the Re:21 set because the 'sons of God' were angelic beings like the ones in Job:1 temple setting. That Temple is the Re:4 one for what it's worth.
Moses was given the 10 Commandment and then 5-fingered David killed the 6-fingered King known as Goliath. 6-fingered King that was a direct relative of the 'fallen angels' in Ge:6.
Gentiles follow every one in a way where we see the thoughts that would lead to an act that would break anyone as being a sin that needs to be repented. If you are a sinner before the action, it is not a double sin to commit the act. What it will do is move you from the Re:20:4 group to the Re:20:5 group. Vs:4 is for 'quick learners', vs:5 is for the ones who 'have more time on their hands' to go deeper into how the Kingdom of God works.
Shepherds, no rest.
Flock, enough time to watch the hay field get taller each and every single day, then it is harvested.

 

[Bob S]

Paul equates the Sabbath as being a shadow. Then he tells us Jesus is the reality, Col2:16-17. The clinching part of the puzzle is Jesus words: Matt 11:27 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. Israel found physical rest for their bodies, but only through Jesus can we find true rest for both our bodies and souls. Some believe the Sabbath given only to Israel only points back to creation. Paul surely didn't and neither do I.

How do we find this blessed REST? 1Jn3:19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence:
believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If God had intended for Gentiles to keep the seventh day Sabbath He would not have specified that it was given to the children of Israel, twice.

God made it very clear in the 4th commandment that the Sabbath is for everyone and Jesus reminds us of this fact. Mark 2:27.

Exodus 20: 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

And we are reminded again the Sabbath is made for everyone.

Isaiah 56:6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant

Which is why not only the descendants from Israel will be honoring the Sabbath by worshipping the Lord for eternity Isaiah 66:23 but instead the saints who keep the commandments of God and faith in Jesus. Revelation 14:12

All covenants God made were made with the house of Israel- God's laws are written into the hearts and minds of His people Hebrews 8:10 Israel is just a name God gave to identify His people and His people are those who follow His Word in faith and all nationalities are welcomed in God's New Covenant promise; Gal 3:26-28. One God, one people with His laws written in the heart and minds- kept through faith and love.

If you agree we need to keep even one of the Ten Commandments today like thou shalt not have any other gods before Me, then we need to keep all of them, because we cannot add or subtract from God's commandments Deut 4:2. The Ten Commandments is the work of God Exodus 32:16 and never is the Sabbath described as the Sabbath of the Jews. God said it is My holy day and the day to honor Him Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13. This is God's will for us, He spoke it, He wrote it and said we can not add or subtract from it. We all have a choice we can either keep God's commandments which is love to God 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:6 or we follow man's traditions where there is no commandments to keep any other day, God never sanctified any other day, it is the day man assigned to God that God said is a working day Exodus 20:9 not the day God sanctified and blessed and is holy to God and God made holy for us since we are made in His image to follow Him. Exodus 2:8-11, Genesis 2:1-3 Jesus warned us of this very thing and condemned those who follow mans traditions over the commandments of God quoting right from the Ten. Matthew 15:3-9

Jesus is coming back soon and we are told we must worship Him in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24 and those who keep not His commandments, there is no truth. 1 John 2:3-5 which comes with a warning Revelation 22:15

We are told the Second Coming will be much like the days of Noah. No one believed Noah either- I pray we all make better decisions so we can enter into the gates of Heaven Revelation 22:14-15 and forever be with Jesus.

 

[Cribstyl]

BobR Some complain that you can find out that the information above is true - is actually what we find in the Bible - just by doing a search of the NT that can also include a word search.

Knowing that followers of Jesus Christ was considered a sect of Judaism is how Christianity began. So showing that they were in the synagogue on Sabbath is not enough to say that they were Sabbath keeping, unless you can show that they were circumcised. Knowing that Jesus appeared to Paul with all the doctrines of the church is why we should follow what's written in his teachings.
The Jerusalem counsel in Act 15 established what Gentiles were commanded to follow. You're playing a game that God will hold you accountable for Bob Ryan. Rather than speak about what is being said in context, you isolate your scriptures to words about the Sabbath day. Truth is, they're not Sabbath keeping. The Gentiles are being saved by words of Gospel of Jesus Christ.

BobR- I was looking for what we DO find in the NT vs what we DON't find in it.

Remember some people post here that they hope/suppose/think that people met every Sunday (weekday one as the NT calls it) -- and even a word such does not help them find that to be the case.

You're preaching the gospel of the Sabbath. and ignoring the context of the scriptures you post.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

BobR Some complain that you can find out that the information above is true - is actually what we find in the Bible - just by doing a search of the NT that can also include a word search.



BobR- I was looking for what we DO find in the NT vs what we DON't find in it.

Remember some people post here that they hope/suppose/think that people met every Sunday (weekday one as the NT calls it) -- and even a word such does not help them find that to be the case.

What we do find in the NT is God writing His laws in the hearts and minds of His people. Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16 and you would need to prove that the Sabbath is not a commandment of God and not part of His laws, when God identifies the Sabbath as a commandment, personally written by His own finger. Exodus 32:16, Exodus 31:18 Exodus 20. Exodus 20:6, Exodus 20:8-11 and that we cannot add or subtract from Deut 4:2 which is why we see Jesus keeping and teaching from His Fathers commandments including the Sabbath which He kept His whole life as our example. John 15:10, Luke 4:16

Every time we see keeping the commandments of God in the NT this includes the Sabbath commandment.

Exodus 20:6 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

In the unit of Ten God identified the Sabbath as one of His commandments Exodus 20:8-11 to suggest otherwise is not arguing with man.

 

[Cribstyl]

How many times must we delve into your comments that are not true?

Getting it right would mean admitting that Jesus said "The Sabbath was made FOR MANKIND" not "just Israel" in Mark 2:27
Getting it right would mean that in Gen 2:1-3 "All mankind" is just Adam and Eve - given the Sabbath as a holy day.
Getting it right would mean reading Is 56:6-8 where gentiles are specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping
Getting it right would mean reading Is 66:23 where we see that "from Sabbath to Sabbath ALL MANKIND" comes before God to worship for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.



Getting this part about all TEN still valid is what we see here

Christian denominations affirm the continued "unit of TEN"
[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]many others as well..

No wonder Christians today affirm the Ex 20:7 command against taking God's name in vain...

Only by partially quoting Mark 2:27 you can make that shameless claim.
There are 3 accounts of this incident in the bible. (Mat 12:1–8; Mar 2:23–28; Luk 6:1–5 ) If you read them you should know more details. True or False?
Mar 2:27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: ( You highjack what's in red and ignore the rest)
In context of Mark 2:27, "Who is them?" We can read that Jesus was being accused by Pharisees of breaking the Sabbath. True or False"
His defense was the Lord of the Sabbath has the authority to serve on the Sabbath. True or False?
By Jesus adding: "not man for the Sabbath" Jesus is saying that Sabbath exist for man and not the other way around. True or False?
By you changing 'man' to 'Mankind' your narrative is false self-serving your objective.
"Sabbath at creation" is made by this fictitious fraud.

 

[BobRyan]

a

Get it right. God spoke from Sinai and commanded The Children of Israel to keep the Sabbath.

Getting it right would mean admitting that Jesus said "The Sabbath was made FOR MANKIND" not "just Israel" in Mark 2:27
Getting it right would mean that in Gen 2:1-3 "All mankind" is just Adam and Eve - given the Sabbath as a holy day.
Getting it right would mean reading Is 56:6-8 where gentiles are specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping
Getting it right would mean reading Is 66:23 where we see that "from Sabbath to Sabbath ALL MANKIND" comes before God to worship for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.

How many times must we delve into your comments that are not true?

All you have to do is show that the reference to the texts above is incorrect. Pretty simple. If you can bring yourself to the point of doing that I think you are on the way to making a substantive argument.

Only by partially quoting Mark 2:27

Fine - Jesus said in Mark 2 "Sabbath was made for mankind not mankind MADE for the Sabbath" -- did you find that not all humans are part of mankind? is so.. show it. In other words - make an actual point - something substantive

you can make that shameless claim.

That is merely name calling - nothing substantive about it. How is this even a little bit confusing for you?

There are 3 accounts of this incident in the bible. (Mat 12:1–8; Mar 2:23–28; Luk 6:1–5 )

Which one says that the Mark 2:27 statement is wrong or that God did not make mankind or that the Sabbath was not made for mankind -- where your actual text would be making that statement)

If you read them you should know more details. True or False?
Mar 2:27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Indeed - this speaks of the making of BOTH mankind AND the Sabbath - which we see in Gen 1-2.

How is that helping you? It looks to me like you just dug that hole deeper for yourself. Are you seeing what you are posting?

( You highjack what's in red and ignore the rest)

Its the rest that digs the hole you're in - even deeper.

No wonder we have so many denominations affirming all TEN (including the Sabbath commandment) for MANKIND.

How is this not incredibly obvious?

No wonder we have "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.

Jesus makes His argument from the Creation fact - to show the right relationship between mankind and the Sabbath.