The CREATOR vs Evolution and why upholding the Sabbath is SO Important

[Cribstyl]

BobRyan: non-7th-day-Sabbath groups affirm all TEN of the TEN commandments - not "just nine"

Biblical facts are clearly written in scriptures, they're not reasoning about who does what.
Exo 34:28
And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
The 10 commandments are the words of the covenant made at Sinai. That covenant was sealed with blood and binding with the penalty of death to whom God made the covenant with. The Children of Israel.
The New Covenant was sealed with the blood of Jesus and therefore replaces the old covenant. There are 2 commandments given by Christ which are said to fulfil the law. #1. Love God, #2. Love your neighbor. (Love fulfils the law)
Gal 6:2Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.


Heb 8:13In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Bob: I find that response missing a few details

Most Christians do not believe that we're keeping Sabbath by worshipping on Sundays.
False arguments are raised to misrepresent the facts. The scriptures should be our directions.

Bob:
Maybe you mean - reasoning "apart from scripture if I don't read the posts where scripture is the basis of the point being made"??

When the scriptures says that God rested *ceased) on the 7th day, because He had ended, finished all His work. Some people reason, that God went back to work weekly with Adam.

 

[Cribstyl]

Yes -... once.

yes ... once

yes ... once

LOL, so, your math should reflex at least 3 Sunday gatherings after Christ died. Tell me how you gather that God rested more than once in creation?

Did Christian Jews and gentiles meet with Paul "EVERY Sabbath" for Gospel preaching --- Act 18:4 instead of 'once'? - yes

You are focused on a word search and you're ignoring the issues in context. Text is saying, while Paul was in Athens to preach the gospel, he tried to reason with the Jews in their synagogue every Sabbath. How many Sabbaths was Paul in Athen until he said no more mission to Jews?
Act 18:6
And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

I find it shameless for Sabbatarians to use Paul's missionary journey as Sabbath keeping scriptures. Why? He was sent to preach to the Jews first.
Fact is, Sabbath keeping is a sign of the Mosaic covenant and you only find the Jews keeping it after the cross.

Did believing gentiles ask for MORE Gospel preaching to be given to them "on the NEXT Sabbath" Acts 13 -- yes

Did anyone in all of the NT EVER ask for a gospel service to be presented "The NEXT Sunday"? -- no.
IS there even ONE reference to Christian Jews and Gentiles meeting "EVERY Sunday for Gospel preaching"? -- no

Now you may respond that "those are just Bible details and what the Bible meant to say is that YES Christian Jews and gentiles met EVERY Sunday for Gospel preaching" --- but that would be an "insert" into the text rather than the "quote" of one.

Question, Are they preaching that Sabbath should be kept, or are you manipulating multiple scriptures to make that argument? What other day were Jews available to hear about God?
You're weaving a web Bob. We all know that Christianity was in its infancy and did not have the support among pagan nations and Kings until 325AD.
Under Pax Romana, Jews as slaves were allowed to keep their Sabbath. Christianity was not openly practiced everywhere.

 

[BobRyan]

LOL, so, your math should reflex at least 3 Sunday gatherings after Christ died.

Actually more than that - in Acts 2 they gathered "every day" to break bread (communion service)

Tell me how you gather that God rested more than once in creation?

He said that we are to rest every single week in honor of the Sabbath on the 7th day because He did it once.

Let's see what He said -

Ex 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

The text does not say that every week God spends six days making another planet and resting the 7th day. The text says He is the creator of this world - made it and all life on it in six days - and rested the 7th day.

That is the easy part.

The legal code in Ex 20:11 points right back to the historic account in Gen 2:1-3 -- the very 'details' many had hoped would not be true.

Gen 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

==========================

Which gets us to another bible detail you are not touching ... the topic of this thread.

Those details above are 100% opposed to the doctrine on origins we find in evolutionism.

 

[BobRyan]

Did Christian Jews and gentiles meet with Paul "EVERY Sabbath" for Gospel preaching --- Act 18:4 instead of 'once'? - yes
Did believing gentiles ask for MORE Gospel preaching to be given to them "on the NEXT Sabbath" Acts 13 -- yes

Did anyone in all of the NT EVER ask for a gospel service to be presented "The NEXT Sunday"? -- no.
IS there even ONE reference to Christian Jews and Gentiles meeting "EVERY Sunday for Gospel preaching"? -- no

Now you may respond that "those are just Bible details and what the Bible meant to say is that YES Christian Jews and gentiles met EVERY Sunday for Gospel preaching" --- but that would be an "insert" into the text rather than the "quote" of one.

Some complain that you can find out that the information above is true - is actually what we find in the Bible - just by doing a search of the NT that can also include a word search.

Cribstyl said:
You are focused on a word search

I was looking for what we DO find in the NT vs what we DON't find in it.

Remember some people post here that they hope/suppose/think that people met every Sunday (weekday one as the NT calls it) -- and even a word such does not help them find that to be the case.

 

[BobRyan]

LOL, so, your math should reflex at least 3 Sunday gatherings after Christ died. Tell me how you gather that God rested more than once in creation?

You are focused on a word search and you're ignoring the issues in context. Text is saying, while Paul was in Athens to preach the gospel, he tried to reason with the Jews in their synagogue every Sabbath. How many Sabbaths was Paul in Athen until he said no more mission to Jews?
Act 18:6
And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

The text does not say that Paul only preached to Jews on Sabbath --- the text says he was preaching to BOTH gentiles and Jews on Sabbath.

And the text does not say that when they believed -- they then started to meet on week-day-one. Rather he kept preaching "every Sabbath".

And in Acts 13 it is believing gentiles that ask for MORE Gospel preaching "the next Sabbath" ... not the Jews. So no wonder in Acts 18 he preached "every Sabbath" to both gentiles and Jews.

Let's look at the Acts 18 text you are not quoting

3 So, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them and worked; for by occupation they were tentmakers. 4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.
5 When Silas and Timothy had come from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. 6 But when they opposed him and blasphemed, he shook his garments and said to them, “Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” 7 And he departed from there and entered the house of a certain man named Justus, one who worshiped God, whose house was next door to the synagogue. 8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.

Paul's letters to the church at Corinth shows that a great many gentiles were being converted in the Acts 18 events

I find it shameless for Sabbatarians to use Paul's missionary journey as Sabbath keeping scriptures.

No doubt it is very inconvenient for the particular preference you have -

Paul states that he is the apolstle sent to the gentiles and Peter the apostle sent to Jews - and yet we have Paul preaching to gentiles every Sabbath in Acts 18 -- and believing gentiles asking for "more gospel preaching " to be given to them "on the NEXT Sabbath" in Acts 13.

As you say above - I can see how you might find these Bible details - a bit "inconvenient"

 

[BobRyan]

Question, Are they preaching that Sabbath should be kept

They are teaching
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"he who breaks one of the commandments - breaks them all" James 2
"there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4
"'Honor your father and mother' is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" Eph 6:2 - in that still-valid unit of TEN

, or are you manipulating multiple scriptures to make that argument?

I am quoting texts that some folks here - never quote because they find the information there to be "inconvenient"

What other day were Jews available to hear about God?

Every day - according to Acts 2.

What is your point?

 

[BobRyan]

We all know that Christianity was in its infancy and did not have the support among pagan nations and Kings until 325AD.
Under Pax Romana, Jews as slaves were allowed to keep their Sabbath. Christianity was not openly practiced everywhere.

In all of the NT Jews were keeping Sabbath and so also Paul in each case that we see him joining in Sabbath worship in Synagogues . And the term Sabbath as used in the NT was defined as the Jews would have known it then. So it is unclear as to what point you are trying to get at in that statement above.

There is "every Sabbath" activity in the NT for worship and Gospel preaching -- but no "every week day1" statement in the NT regarding Gospel preaching. So far you treat that as merely an "inconvenient bible detail" in the way you dismiss it.

In Acts 21 we see that at the highest levels in the NT Christian Church - in Jerusalem among the apostles - they still held Moses, and the OT text in very high regard as scripture and claimed that Paul was equally affirming on those points in his teaching.

 

[Cribstyl]

Not to take this off track more... I apologize for not getting back to this, it somehow slipped out of my alerts.

Anyway. I'll address this and ask that it not be debated any more so as to continue the thread.

Way back when there were only heathens on the earth. Because of the fall and the promise in Genesis 3 the LORD looked to find a people to praise his name in the earth, after all HE alone is the Creator.
Now the adversary who caused the fall was told that there would come a 'seed' that would crush his head (kill him) and he, since that time has tried to avert that from happening.

I won't go into details here but there are many examples to be found of the adversary working to twart God's plans.
When it became obvious as to whom the LORD had chosen to bring forth the Messiah, the one that would crush his heal the attacks intensified.

We all know the story of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and from this family came the Redeemer.

Now back in the beginning, the LORD created the heavens and earth and all that we see in them, including mankind.
He is the ONLY CREATOR but there is one who wants to usurp that position or better yet, hide it, at least from the knowledge of mankind.

In 'mythology' there were many 'gods' introduced to fool the people. They even invented 'creator gods'.

So when the LORD YHVH chose the line to bring his Messiah through he gave them an awesome task. While giving rules to live by and separating them from the heathens he made part of his covenant with them to uphold him as the True CREATOR. And that was done by certain ways to keep that day, the Seventh day as it points back to Creation week.

There are many writings against the Jews (In particular to when Christianity came about) that ridicule them for things they do such as circumcision which was a law given to Abraham. But the main thing they are criticized for is for Keeping the Sabbath Holy.


A few things:

They don't work on this day
They don't light a fire or cook on this day
They light candles before the sun goes down, ushering in the Holy day

Despite the risks of keeping Shabbat many during the inquisition found a way to still keep the Sabbath holy even though their lives were at stake. Those Jews during the Holocaust did the same thing as best they could.

This was a weekly reminder as to not being afraid to show the world who their God was. A weekly advertising, even under the most difficult and horrendous conditions to show the world who the True Creator God is.

Now why would this day, once a week be so important? Again because it proclaims to the world who the ONE TRUE GOD is. The ONE that Created everything. It points back every week in history to the Creation story.

It is not just a day that God finished his work, He actually sanctified it , separated it from the rest of the week to show himself as the Creator.

It is set apart and the ONLY day of the week that He has ever done so.

Now Israel was told that they could have the strangers among them (who weren't related to any of the tribes) keep the same commandments. These were considered to have 'joined Israel'. Many years later we read about one who wasn't from any of the tribes but who bound themselves to Israel (the people) and to their God. That person was Ruth, the Great- Grandmother of King David whose line the Messiah came through.

NOw those who have learned of the Jewish Messiah and have accepted his sacrifice for their sins should automatically want to have the same same heart attitude as Ruth did. (your people will be my people and your God , My God. )

The Sabbath was given to the People of GOD, the one True God, it was given to them still to uphold the True God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as a testimony to the world of the ONE and ONLY Creator.

Many Jews still witness to this but sadly the Millions of Christians that have taken their Messiah to be theirs do not want to be witnesses to HIM and don't point to Him on the Seventh day.

Doing this to 'not be like the Jews' is the worst excuse for not Upholding the True Creator, YHVH and that includes his son who was there with HIM at Creation.

As John said there was nothing that was made that was not made by Him (Jesus).


I will return to the OP, post #2 shortly.

Hey Lulav, I appreciate your perspective on history including why God gave The Children of God the Sabbath.
Here are some more facts to check out.
Ex 12 is the last day of the Children of Israel being slaves in Egypt. God commands them to keep the Passover and about being circumcised.
God commands them that the foreigners and strangers who joined them would have to keep Passover and circumcision. Sabbath was not given to them as yet. Ex16 is where Moses writes THE LORD HAS GIVEN TO YOU THE SABBATH.

I have studied about the Sabbath from with some Jewish sources.

Shabbat - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

Learn about the Jewish sabbath and its observances. Includes a description of a typical sabbath and a recipe for cholent, a traditional Jewish sabbath dish.

www.jewfaq.org

 

[Cribstyl]

They are teaching
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"he who breaks one of the commandments - breaks them all" James 2
"there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4
"'Honor your father and mother' is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" Eph 6:2 - in that still-valid unit of TEN


I am quoting texts that some folks here - never quote because they find the information there to be "inconvenient"

Every day - according to Acts 2.

What is your point?

You are actually exposing Sabbatarians methods of teaching their so-called truth.
No, Paul is not teaching that we're under the law. That's what you are always trying to teach.
Your quote from 1 Cor 7:19 is a partial quote that's isolated and taken out of context.
What is Paul calling "keeping the commandments of God"?
1 Cor 7 is written to Corinthian Christians who had question about marriage and relationship with women.
1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
1Co 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
The context shows that Paul distinguished his opinion from commandments from God about marriage and how to treat women.
1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
So, it's fake news that Paul is talking about the Ten Commandments.
Why would you do that?
---------------------------------------------------------------
James's ministry is among the circumcision and not to the Gentiles (uncircumcision)
His letter is addressed to the 12 tribes.
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
There is endless wisdom to glean from James, but you're looking to highjack words about keeping the law.
Some people will fall for it, some know better.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Heb 4 is talking is talking about entering God's rest, not sabbath keeping. (corrected)
Truth matters

 

[BobRyan]

Cribstyl said:

Question, Are they preaching that Sabbath should be kept

They are teaching
"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"he who breaks one of the commandments - breaks them all" James 2
"there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4
"'Honor your father and mother' is the FIRST commandment WITH a promise" Eph 6:2 - in that still-valid unit of TEN

I am quoting texts that some folks here - never quote because they find the information there to be "inconvenient"

You are actually exposing Sabbatarians methods of teaching

Indeed - we call it "sola scriptura" where what the Bible says - matters even if the details are deemed "inconvenient" by others.

At least we agree on something.

No, Paul is not teaching that we're under the law. That's what you are always trying to teach.

Quoting "you" then blaming it on 'me' as if I say whatever you claim is not a compelling solution.
You have ignored every text I just gave - and then made up a new statement for me.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"?? What is the thinking in that sort of solution?

Your quote from 1 Cor 7:19 is a partial quote that's isolated and taken out of context.

And you don't quote 1 Cor 7:18-20 at all as if that is the better view of 1 Cor 7:19 -- to simply avoid it?

How is that compelling?

1 Cor 7:18-20 shows that ceremonial laws like circumcision do not continue to matter but moral laws such as the "Commandments of God" do.

And you don't quote it at ALL - just to show how accurate your method is??? seriously??

18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? He is not to be circumcised.​

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20 Each person is to remain in that state in which he was called.​

There is a clear contrast in vs 19 between moral law of God as "Commandments of God" that apply in all circumstances vs the ceremonial law such as cirumcision.

Notice how your post entirely ignores that whole section of the chapter that is filled with a number of different topics

What is Paul calling "keeping the commandments of God"?
1 Cor 7 is written to Corinthian Christians who had question about marriage and relationship with women.
1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
1Co 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
The context shows that Paul distinguished his opinion from commandments from God about marriage and how to treat women.
1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
So, it's fake news that Paul is talking about the Ten Commandments.

and apparently you view the topic of vs 18-19 as too inconvenient to even quote or discuss?? seriously?? Paul contrasts the ten commandments with the issue of gentiles being converted and then being circumcised. Obviously.

Paul writes to gentiles in Eph 6:2 saying "'honor your father and mother' is the first commandment with a promise" in that still-valid unit of ten.

James's ministry is among the circumcision and not to the Gentiles (uncircumcision)

scripture is for humans and is inspired by God and that includes the NT as it turns out.
Gal 1:6-9 denies the claim that there is more than one gospel.

James says that to break one is to break them all - and that the person in transgression is convicted by the Law of God -- of sin.

John says "Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4.

Paul says it is only the lost that "do not submit to the Law of God ..neither indeed can they" Rom 8:4-11

His letter is addressed to the 12 tribes.
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
There is endless wisdom to glean from James, but you're looking to highjack words about keeping the law.

your term "hijack" seems to be defined as "you actually quote sections of James that go against my preference and don't fit my doctrine".

In your "only applies to Jewish christians" suggestion you appear to toss all of James 2 out the window -- specifically this part

2 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and is dressed in bright clothes, and a poor man in dirty clothes also comes in, 3 and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the bright clothes, and say, “You sit here in a good place,” and you say to the poor man, “You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,” 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters: did God not choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court? 7 Do they not blaspheme the good name by which you have been called?​

​

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the Law as violators.​

​

hmm so that is Lev 19:18 you are not quoting yet it is quoted by Paul in Rom 13, by Christ in Matt 19, by James in James 2... but you avoid it?​

​

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the Law as violators. 10 For whoever keeps the whole Law, yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all.10 For whoever keeps the whole Law, yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do murder, you have become a violator of the Law.​

​

That is yet another section you say only applies to Jews -- seriously? gentiles not subject to 'do not murder'??? How does that even happen??​

​

12 So speak, and so act, as those who are to be judged by the law of freedom. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.​

I find it hard to believe that when confronted with this text your response is of the form "only applies to Jewish Christians"

===================

Out of curiosity - are you interested at all in the title/subject of this thread regarding evolutionism vs the teaching in God's Word in Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:1-3? OR are you responding "in that context" by saying evolution is ok since the commandment of God in this case does not matter?

 

[Bob S]

Well, we both agree that the law is good!

I agree that the Law WAS good. God doesn't make laws that didn't/don't have a purpose. The fact is no one is living under the old covenant Laws. We are under the new and better covenant that has better promises. The old covenant was God's way of teaching the Israelites how to live and govern themselves. On their own they would not have had any idea how to form a government and make the multitude of former slaves "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation". (Taken from Moses' interview with God found in Ex19:6.) The Israelites failed to make this come to fruition thus the need for Jesus to come to this sin filled Earth to redeem all mankind. The whole scenario is referred to as the plan of salvation initiated before the foundation of the Earth. Every human is a player in God's plan. We are so fortunate to be able to trace God's plan and to be part of it.

Even though we are able to trace linage and events we are still left with so many unanswered questions like why was satan exiled to this planet to destroy so much of perfect creation and cause man to have a sinful nature?

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that the Law WAS good.

Romans 7 says the Law IS Good.

Rom 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

There is no "the Law used to be good -- but not any more" in all of the NT.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

Rom 8:4-11 says the unsaved are at war with the Law of God using these words

"He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

God doesn't make laws that didn't/don't have a purpose. The fact is no one is living under the old covenant Laws.

Not true.

1. All the Lost are under the Old Covenant still as we see in Gal 3. - it is "obey and live"
2. The saints are under the NEW Covenant Jer 31:31-34. And that is OLD Testament and quoted verbatim unchanged - it writes the moral law of God on the heart - including the Law of TEN written on stone - known to Jeremiah and his readers (for those who value exegesis).
3. So no wonder Paul quote from THE TEN in Rom 13 and from Lev 19:18. And he qoutes from the TEN in Eph 6:2 and in Rom 7.
no wonder James quotes from THE TEN and from Lev 19:18 in James 2.
no wonder Jesus quotes from THE TEN in Matt 19 and also quote from Lev 19:18

We are under the new and better covenant that has better promises.

Yep. Jer 31:31-34 as quoted verbatim in Heb 8:6-12

The one that says in Jeremiah's day "I will write MY LAW on their heart and mind" just as it says in Heb 8.

 

[Bob S]

Romans 7 says the Law IS Good. Rom 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

The fact is we are not under the 613 commands of the old covenant

There is no "the Law used to be good -- but not any more" in all of the NT. Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

I am so confused, you tell us we are still under the Law, yet you, if you are really SDA, are not required to observe all of the 613 laws that would pertain to you. Was what God wrote with his finger any more sacred than what He voiced? There is not one word about love in the ten commandments. The love commands are from God's voice and you only endorse His finger. Can you explain how you, with scripture, are able to separate the old covenant Law. Paul didn't qualify Law when he wrote Rom 3:31, therefore he had to be referring to 613. Also, in your trying to convince us that we have to keep the Sabbath of the defunct Israelite covenant you, of course do not tell us what verse 27 is telling us, so I will post it for all to see. 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Even though the Law was Holy , just and good no one today is under the Covenant that passed away at Calvary where Jesus ratified the new and better covenant with better promises.

Rom 8:4-11 says the unsaved are at war with the Law of God using these words

"He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

Jesus is God and in Jn15: 9-14 He revealed to all mankind that He kept the laws of the old covenant and now mankind is asked by Jesus to keep His command. Jesus new command is for us to love others as He loves us. His command is all about morality and nothing about old covenant rituals like Sabbath observance.

Bob S said:
God doesn't make laws that didn't/don't have a purpose. The fact is no one is living under the old covenant Laws.

Bob Ryan wrote:
Not true.

1. All the Lost are under the Old Covenant still as we see in Gal 3. - it is "obey and live"

Gal3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Actually, Bob there is absolutely nothing in Gal3 that would indicate that the unsaved are under the old covenant. Your statement, unless you have some proof, is untrue. Gentiles were never under the old covenant.

2. The saints are under the NEW Covenant Jer 31:31-34. And that is OLD Testament and quoted verbatim unchanged - it writes the moral law of God on the heart - including the Law of TEN written on stone - known to Jeremiah and his readers (for those who value exegesis).

Jeremiah does not say MORAL law, it says "law" period. Why do you feel free to add to scripture? The new covenant according to Jeremiah 31:27 will not be like the old one yet you write that it is the same verbatim. Again, another untruth according to the Holy Writ unless you can prove differently. Does the Holy Spirit dwelling in you prick your conscience to not shave your sideburns or to send your wife out during certain times?

3. So no wonder Paul quote from THE TEN in Rom 13 and from Lev 19:18. And he qoutes from the TEN in Eph 6:2 and in Rom 7.
no wonder James quotes from THE TEN and from Lev 19:18 in James 2.
no wonder Jesus quotes from THE TEN in Matt 19 and also quote from Lev 19:18

All of the commands quoted deal with morality. None of them are about rituals. Gal 5:
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Do you see the act of the flesh your prophet wrote that had a halo around it? The one that is so very very important, according to her, that we will lose our eternal inheritance if we do not observe it?

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Yep. Jer 31:31-34 as quoted verbatim in Heb 8:6-12

The one that says in Jeremiah's day "I will write MY LAW on their heart and mind" just as it says in Heb 8.

Again, "my law" is not just the ten commandments that do not tell us the greatest command ever given. It is speaking of all of God's laws to the Israelites. If Iam wrong you need to prove I am. "my law" has to be Jesus law to all of His children and that law is for us to love others as Jesus loves us. That is what God has written on our hearts, not for us to not cut our sideburns or keep a bunch of other ritual requirements.

 

[Cribstyl]

Actually more than that - in Acts 2 they gathered "every day" to break bread (communion service)

Jesus did appear to His disciples three times after His death. Yes, you're correct that the church first gathered on Pentecost worshipped daily.

He said that we are to rest every single week in honor of the Sabbath on the 7th day because He did it once.

Let's see what He said -

Ex 20:8-11
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

The text does not say that every week God spends six days making another planet and resting the 7th day. The text says He is the creator of this world - made it and all life on it in six days - and rested the 7th day.

That is the easy part.

The legal code in Ex 20:11 points right back to the historic account in Gen 2:1-3 -- the very 'details' many had hoped would not be true.

Gen 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

==========================

Get it right. God spoke from Sinai and commanded The Children of Israel to keep the Sabbath. The rest of your commentary is questionable.

 

[BobRyan]

The fact is we are not under the 613 commands

Until you read the Bible and find out that Christ quotes from Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 in Matt 22 just as Paul quotes Lev 19:18 in Rom 13 and James quotes Lev 19:18 in James 2.

And of course they all quote from the TEN found Ex 20 in Matt 19, and in Rom 7 and in Rom 13 and in James 2...

No wonder the NEW Covenant is in the OLD testament in Jer 31:31-34 and says the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on heart and mind under the New Covenant. A covenant that is quoted verbatim and unchanged in the NEW Testament in Heb 8:6-12.

I am so confused, you tell us we are still under the Law

In your statement above -- Is that "you quoting you" saying it -- or do actually have a "saints under the law still" quote from me (other than when I am quoting you?)

, yet you, if you are really SDA, are not required to observe all of the 613 laws

If we look at that many texts I posted that you do not respond to -- we see that the OT laws I reference are affirmed by all the non-SDA sources listed in my signature line (more things "not to read" if one is trying to avoid details in the thread). And these also quoted by NT sources...

2. The saints are under the NEW Covenant Jer 31:31-34. And that is OLD Testament and quoted verbatim unchanged - it writes the moral law of God on the heart - including the Law of TEN written on stone - known to Jeremiah and his readers (for those who value exegesis).
3. So no wonder Paul quote from THE TEN in Rom 13 and from Lev 19:18. And he qoutes from the TEN in Eph 6:2 and in Rom 7.
no wonder James quotes from THE TEN and from Lev 19:18 in James 2.
no wonder Jesus quotes from THE TEN in Matt 19 and also quote from Lev 19:18

 

[BobRyan]

Christian denominations affirm the continued *"unit of TEN"
[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]many others as well..

if you are really SDA, are not required to observe all of the 613 laws that would pertain to you. Was what God wrote with his finger any more sacred than what He voiced? There is not one word about love in the ten commandments.

You "say" -- just SDA -- but apparently you are talking about all Christian scholars in almost all Christian denominations at that point - as is pointed out repeatedly so far... hard to miss.

This random "just SDA" argument is one reason I keep that list above available as a reminder for the objective unbiased readers. It is easy for them -- to see the point.

How is it that ignoring those details helps you get to posts of the form: "nope ... just SDAs affirm God's Ten Commandments"

 

[BobRyan]

Get it right. God spoke from Sinai and commanded The Children of Israel to keep the Sabbath.

Getting it right would mean admitting that Jesus said "The Sabbath was made FOR MANKIND" not "just Israel" in Mark 2:27
Getting it right would mean that in Gen 2:1-3 "All mankind" is just Adam and Eve - given the Sabbath as a holy day.
Getting it right would mean reading Is 56:6-8 where gentiles are specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping
Getting it right would mean reading Is 66:23 where we see that "from Sabbath to Sabbath ALL MANKIND" comes before God to worship for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth.



Getting this part about all TEN still valid is what we see here

Christian denominations affirm the continued "unit of TEN"
[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II
[*]many others as well..

No wonder Christians today affirm the Ex 20:7 command against taking God's name in vain...

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus did appear to His disciples three times after His death.

and the disciples met "every day" in Acts 2 to break bread.

But by contrast we see Paul along with believing gentiles and Jews in Sabbath services "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4

And it is gentiles asking for more Gospel preaching to be given to them "The NEXT Sabbath" in Acts 13.

 

[BobRyan]

The fact is we are not under the 613 commands of the old covenant

Jer 31:31-34 as quoted verbatim in Heb 8:6-12

The one that says in Jeremiah's day "I will write MY LAW on their heart and mind" just as it says in Heb 8.

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law"

Again, "my law" is not just the ten commandments that do not tell us the greatest command ever given. It is speaking of all of God's laws to the Israelites. If I am wrong you need to prove I am.

Been there done that.

BTW I never claim that only the Ten Commandments are valid OT scripture for saints and you know it - from my many references to Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5.

Were we simply not supposed to notice??

"my law" has to be Jesus law to all of His children

Jesus is God - they are "God's Commandments" -- the "Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

That is what we see in Eph 6:2 where "Honor your father and mother' is the first commandment with a promise" in that still valid unit of Ten being included in the Commandments of God that are for NT saints.

 

[BobRyan]

The fact is we are not under the 613 commands of the old covenant


I am so confused, you tell us we are still under the Law, yet you, if you are really SDA, are not required to observe all of the 613 laws that would pertain to you. Was what God wrote with his finger any more sacred than what He voiced? There is not one word about love in the ten commandments. The love commands are from God's voice and you only endorse His finger. Can you explain how you, with scripture, are able to separate the old covenant Law. Paul didn't qualify Law when he wrote Rom 3:31, therefore he had to be referring to 613. Also, in your trying to convince us that we have to keep the Sabbath of the defunct Israelite covenant you, of course do not tell us what verse 27 is telling us, so I will post it for all to see. 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Even though the Law was Holy , just and good no one today is under the Covenant that passed away at Calvary where Jesus ratified the new and better covenant with better promises.


Jesus is God and in Jn15: 9-14 He revealed to all mankind that He kept the laws of the old covenant and now mankind is asked by Jesus to keep His command. Jesus new command is for us to love others as He loves us. His command is all about morality and nothing about old covenant rituals like Sabbath observance.

Bob S said:
God doesn't make laws that didn't/don't have a purpose. The fact is no one is living under the old covenant Laws.

Bob Ryan wrote:
Not true.


Gal3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Actually, Bob there is absolutely nothing in Gal3 that would indicate that the unsaved are under the old covenant. Your statement, unless you have some proof, is untrue. Gentiles were never under the old covenant.


Jeremiah does not say MORAL law, it says "law" period. Why do you feel free to add to scripture? The new covenant according to Jeremiah 31:27 will not be like the old one yet you write that it is the same verbatim. Again, another untruth according to the Holy Writ unless you can prove differently. Does the Holy Spirit dwelling in you prick your conscience to not shave your sideburns or to send your wife out during certain times?

3. So no wonder Paul quote from THE TEN in Rom 13 and from Lev 19:18. And he qoutes from the TEN in Eph 6:2 and in Rom 7.
no wonder James quotes from THE TEN and from Lev 19:18 in James 2.
no wonder Jesus quotes from THE TEN in Matt 19 and also quote from Lev 19:18

All of the commands quoted deal with morality.

Indeed. The TEN are included in what the Baptist Confessionm of faith calls "the moral law of God"

Those example do not quote Ex 20:7 "do not take God's name in vain" but it too is included nonetheless.

None of them are about rituals

Indeed --

And your point??

Or are you almost about to agree with --

[*]The Baptist Confession of Faith section 19
[*]The Westminster Confession of Faith section 19
[*]Voddie Baucham
[*]C.H. Spurgeon
[*]D.L. Moody
[*]Dies Domini by Pope John Paul II