The Contradiction: Messages about God's Mercy, Love, and Grace and Messages about Judgment...?

[Neogaia777]

I don't see a contradiction. There is no concept of "mercy" possible without there being a "judgment" as well, and there is no contradiction of both characteristics being within the same person. While it's possible for a person to be a merciless judge, one must be a judge to show mercy.

I do like your post, and it sounds really good, but, how does that work practically speaking...? Do you maybe have a, or any examples of this maybe...?, or can you show us how God is like this maybe...?

And there are many who think YHWH was pretty merciless, are they wrong...?

If they are, can you maybe, perhaps, show and explain how maybe, possibly...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Teachings that I'm familiar with maintain that a person can become less culpable for sin as it becomes habitual, addictive, etc

Is that really the case with God though...? And/or all kinds of sins, or just some of them (if it is)...?

And I still think there is some danger, possibly great danger, in our thinking some kinds of sins are either "more or less permissible" than others (are) ect, ect...

God Bless!

 

[corinth77777]

Fasting can be one way of disciplining yourself, or gain a bit of "self-control", but there others, or other ways you can discipline your flesh, but, many of them have to do with you denying and starving and not gratifying your flesh though...

But, it's not easy, by any means... Especially in today's "I want and get to have it all, now and all right now", "instant gratification" society... And that is kind of, or very, counterproductive to any kind of real or true discipline and/or self-control...

God Bless!

I believe it becomes "easy" or rather desirable when you count what you are getting...its like the man who finds a treasure in a field and goes and sells everything he has to buy it.
You want to give up for the sake of what you are getting

 

[corinth77777]

I believe it becomes "easy" or rather desirable when you count what you are getting...its like the man who finds a treasure in a field and goes and sells everything he has to buy it.
You want to give up for the sake of what you are getting

Some other ways are to seek to do good....practice loving the unlovable, and looking for God in everything we do.

 

[Neogaia777]

Some other ways are to seek to do good....practice loving the unlovable, and looking for God in everything we do.

Good advice, I am kind of going that way (now), or headed that way (now) but, thanks...

God Bless!

 

[corinth77777]

Some other ways are to seek to do good....practice loving the unlovable, and looking for God in everything we do.

And don't forget Hebrews 12

14 Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many. 16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done.

 

[corinth77777]

The "way" is not the Law though, right...? But "Faith" and having or eventually coming to the kind of Faith Jesus Himself had, by walking in it, and also Love, and by following these and not being overly sin conscious, or your own works focused (which is what the Law does) will, in time, take care of sin, right...?

Faith and Love... Or Love, Hope, and Faith, the greatest of these being Love...

But Hope is a part of Faith I would think, and Faith a part of Hope, for it is near impossible for one to have one separate from, or apart from the other, right...?

Or, at least, that's what I think you seem to be saying... Am I getting that somewhat right at all...?

I just want us to get this right and have it now, or soon, perhaps I am just (being) impatient...? IDK...?

God Bless!

I found a scriptural answer for you:


That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Matthew 12:33

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt.

 

[Neogaia777]

I found a scriptural answer for you:

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I interpret that to mean, not the letter of the Law, or by following after the letter of the Law, but it's Spirit, written on all the hearts and consciences of the faithful, for the letter of the Law is flesh, but not it's Spirit or the Spirit of it (written on the hearts and consciences of the faithful)...

Matthew 12:33

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt.

"There is nothing better for man than to see (the) good (in all things) all the days of his life..." (can't find where that is at right now)

But, how many of us see mostly or mainly evil...? And is that wrong of us, or not...?

(Don't have to answer if you don't want to, cause I don't really know either, it's just food for thought)...

God Bless!

 

[lesliedellow]

First off, why are you so upset...?

And secondly, or anyway, or anyhow, there is scriptural support for both views, and you have not even tried to answer the OP or anything else talked about thus far in this thread that addresses and/or talks about that either...?

What do you mean “both views”. The Bible talks constantly about both God’s wrath and his love. What makes you think he isn’t capable of both?

How so...?

Cause I'l be honest with you, I had to look that term up, and it's nothing even remotely close to what I believe and/or am saying at all...

How do you know what "my understanding or Christian Theology" is anyway...?

Quote: “But what about the verses about Judgment...? that (to sum them all up), basically say that if you sin at all, you will not get into, nor ever see the Kingdom of God...?”

Nowhere does the Bible say that. If it did, it would be saying that we achieve salvation by our own works, and that is Pelagianism.

 

[RDKirk]

I do like your post, and it sounds really good, but, how does that work practically speaking...? Do you maybe have a, or any examples of this maybe...?, or can you show us how God is like this maybe...?

When I was active duty in the military in one of my later assignments, we devision superintendents and chiefs had monthly meetings with the commander, the First Sergeant, and a prosecutor from the office of the command Judge Advocate General (JAG).

These meetings were to discuss the legal disposition of our junior troops who had gotten into various kinds of trouble through the month. The format was: The JAG prosecutor presented the case against a troop--a DUI, for instance, or writing a bad check. There were usually six or seven people in trouble that we had to discuss.

The prosecutor laid out all the evidence for a court-martial conviction. The way the military handles such things, if the prosecutor is even talking about court-martial, it's because the case is already iron-clad. They didn't consider court-martial unless they had all the evidence for a conviction.

Then, whichever of us was his division leader would talk about what disciplinary action we'd taken at our level and how the troop had responded to it. We made a distinction between "a good troop that screwed up versus a troop that's a screw-up." If it was a good troop who had screwed up, we'd talk about the positive ways he'd already responded to our lower-level discipline (such as extra duty), his good record, et cetera. Basically, we were acting as his advocates, pleading for mercy.

And sometimes our pleas were truly heart-felt. Sometimes it was a troop we really liked and respected who had just inexplicably made a bad choice, and we pleaded for him from the heart.

After we'd spoken, the commander then made a decision. He could choose to let our lower-level disciplinary action be the end of the matter. Or he could impose some additional "non-judicial punishment" himself, which was a higher degree of punishment, such as a demotion, but that would also be the end of the matter. If the commander did either of those, the record of the incident would be purged when the troop transferred to another unit. It would normally not end or cripple his career. He'd get past it.

Or he could decide to turn the troop over to the judicial system for court-martial. If he did that, the troop would almost certainly be convicted. His career would be destroyed. He would get a less-than-honorable discharge. He might even go to prison. The federal conviction would haunt him the rest of his life.

The commander had the authority to make that decision, right then and there, to spare a career or to destroy it, and there would be no reprieve from his decision.

 

[lesliedellow]

I interpret that to mean, not the letter of the Law, or by following after the letter of the Law, but it's Spirit.....

Spirit spelt with a capital letter is a reference to the third person of the Trinity.

 

[Neogaia777]

When I was active duty in the military in one of my later assignments, we devision superintendents and chiefs had monthly meetings with the commander, the First Sergeant, and a prosecutor from the office of the command Judge Advocate General (JAG).

These meetings were to discuss the legal disposition of our junior troops who had gotten into various kinds of trouble through the month. The format was: The JAG prosecutor presented the case against a troop--a DUI, for instance, or writing a bad check. There were usually six or seven people in trouble that we had to discuss.

The prosecutor laid out all the evidence for a court-martial conviction. The way the military handles such things, if the prosecutor is even talking about court-martial, it's because the case is already iron-clad. They didn't consider court-martial unless they had all the evidence for a conviction.

Then, whichever of us was his division leader would talk about what disciplinary action we'd taken at our level and how the troop had responded to it. We made a distinction between "a good troop that screwed up versus a troop that's a screw-up." If it was a good troop who had screwed up, we'd talk about the positive ways he'd already responded to our lower-level discipline (such as extra duty), his good record, et cetera. Basically, we were acting as his advocates, pleading for mercy.

And sometimes our pleas were truly heart-felt. Sometimes it was a troop we really liked and respected who had just inexplicably made a bad choice, and we pleaded for him from the heart.

After we'd spoken, the commander then made a decision. He could choose to let our lower-level disciplinary action be the end of the matter. Or he could impose some additional "non-judicial punishment" himself, which was a higher degree of punishment, such as a demotion, but that would also be the end of the matter. If the commander did either of those, the record of the incident would be purged when the troop transferred to another unit. It would normally not end or cripple his career. He'd get past it.

Or he could decide to turn the troop over to the judicial system for court-martial. If he did that, the troop would almost certainly be convicted. His career would be destroyed. He would get a less-than-honorable discharge. He might even go to prison. The federal conviction would haunt him the rest of his life.

The commander had the authority to make that decision, right then and there, to spare a career or to destroy it, and there would be no reprieve from his decision.

So, the judgment could be the same, or both guilty in two cases, but, depending on how the individuals responded and/or acted, and/or behaved, and/or what they did, or how they handled it, both in it and afterward, but before the final judgement, would determine if one was to get any further punishment(s) and/or convictions for, or from, that crime that might even be the exact same crime in both cases, but the attitude(s), behavior(s), what they did or didn't do afterwards, ect, but before the final judgment, would dictate whether one was shown "mercy" or not, right...?

But God's exact judgments and ways for every single specific case...? "Who can know them, or find them, or seek them out...?"

I don't know if any human example(s) would suffice...? Or whether mere human understanding can know and understand it/that fully or completely...? (all his judgments in all things, and every single specific individual case)...

Romans 9:15 "For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

And I might add, "And who are we to question Him or His judgments and/or His ways and/or actions, deeds, ect...?"

But, does God understand our wanting to understand it/them though, right...?

But to what end, and for what reason and purpose...? (He might say back to us), and, "Is it really, truly 100% pure in nature...?"

And I would have to say, I honestly don't know right now or at this point...? (would be my answer right now)...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Spirit spelt with a capital letter is a reference to the third person of the Trinity.

I know...

But/and/also, the three also share the same Spirit, the same Spirit that can now be in us now...

And I capitalized it cause I believe the "Spirit" or God of the OT Law Covenant, or Spirit behind it, or of it, is/was God also (YHWH) (is/was)...

God Bless!

 

[RDKirk]

So, the judgment could be the same, or both guilty in two cases, but, depending on how the individuals responded and/or acted, and/or behaved, and/or what they did, or how they handled it, both in it and afterward, but before the final judgement, would determine if one was to get any further punishment(s) and/or convictions for, or from, that crime that might even be the exact same crime in both cases, but the attitude(s), behavior(s), what they did or didn't do afterwards, ect, but before the final judgment, would dictate whether one was shown "mercy" or not, right...?

But God's exact judgments and ways for every single specific case...? "Who can know them, or find them, or seek them out...?"

I don't know if any human example(s) would suffice...? Or whether mere human understanding can know and understand it/that fully or completely...? (all his judgments in all things, and every single specific individual case)...

Romans 9:15 "For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

And I might add, "And who are we to question Him or His judgments and/or His ways and/or actions, deeds, ect...?"

But, does God understand our wanting to understand it/them though, right...?

But to what end, and for what reason and purpose...? (He might say back to us), and, "Is it really, truly 100% pure in nature...?"

And I would have to say, I honestly don't know right now or at this point...? (would be my answer right now)...

God Bless!

All of those factors were involved. Heck, maybe the commander was simply in a bad mood one morning. We had no right to demand an explanation for his decisions, he had no obligation to give us one.

The point is, it was his decision, his authority, the power given to him over us, to have mercy or not, with no accountability to anyone.

"For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

Been there. Seen that.

 

[Neogaia777]

All of those factors were involved. Heck, maybe the commander was simply in a bad mood one morning. We had no right to demand an explanation for his decisions, he had no obligation to give us one.

The point is, it was his decision, his authority, the power given to him over us, to have mercy or not, with no accountability to anyone.

"For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

Been there. Seen that.

Both Like and Agree Brother, but it won't let me do both...

But in the case of God, do you think he would, will, or will possibly let us know any of it or some of it, or what/maybe/if, or anything...?

God Bless!

 

[corinth77777]

I interpret that to mean, not the letter of the Law, or by following after the letter of the Law, but it's Spirit, written on all the hearts and consciences of the faithful, for the letter of the Law is flesh, but not it's Spirit or the Spirit of it (written on the hearts and consciences of the faithful)...



"There is nothing better for man than to see (the) good (in all things) all the days of his life..." (can't find where that is at right now)

But, how many of us see mostly or mainly evil...? And is that wrong of us, or not...?

(Don't have to answer if you don't want to, cause I don't really know either, it's just food for thought)...

God Bless!

The focus is not on rather we think evil
because that goes without saying...for no one seeks after God.

But it's to make the tree good and then its fruits will be.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Jesus saved us from passed sins to destroy the works of the devil.

That means if we continue to walk after the spirit instead of the desires of the flesh...this will happen. SIN separates us from God...but Living in Christ brings us back.


"Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

Just my thoughts

 

[corinth77777]

All of those factors were involved. Heck, maybe the commander was simply in a bad mood one morning. We had no right to demand an explanation for his decisions, he had no obligation to give us one.

The point is, it was his decision, his authority, the power given to him over us, to have mercy or not, with no accountability to anyone.

"For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

Been there. Seen that.

But He also states that He gives grace to the humble and opposes the proud..

Context is important shall one apply words in the context it was written to other areas?

 

[RDKirk]

But He also states that He gives grace to the humble and opposes the proud..

Context is important shall one apply words in the context it was written to other areas?

Yes. And so, in the real-world military example, what would that look like?

Humility would look like a troop acknowledging that he'd done wrong, accepting any punishment, and turning over a new leaf. Pride would look like a troop who denied that what he'd done was wrong and denied that the commander had authority over him.

And for sure, humility would have been more likely to elicit mercy than pride, even in that human situation. Even an human judge knows what mercy is.

And the Lord continued, "Listen to what that corrupt judge said. Now, will God not judge in favor of his own people who cry to him day and night for help? Will he be slow to help them?

 

[fhansen]

Is that really the case with God though...? And/or all kinds of sins, or just some of them (if it is)...?

And I still think there is some danger, possibly great danger, in our thinking some kinds of sins are either "more or less permissible" than others (are) ect, ect...

God Bless!

It's not a matter of some sins being more permissible though. No sin should be minimized, as if it's not really sin at all maybe; all sin should be looked at as an anomaly of nature, against God's will. And yet we may be held less accountable for some sins. If alcoholism is rampant in one person's family history while not in another's, which person is more likely to develop alcoholism themselves? And even in our criminal justice system, some crimes are punished more severely than others; we know intuitively that a person should be held to a higher level of accountability for more serious offenses. Should a person telling a white lie in order to gain some small advantage at work be considered as unrighteous as someone who murders their job competition at work? And some sins are, by their nature, directly opposed to love of God and neighbor, while others are not.

Various factors can be at play; knowledge and intent being most important. Does a person truly understand the gravity of the act? What's their own background; has abuse been involved? Are they aware that it is wrong at all? Are they committing it with deliberate intent? Varying levels of maliciousness are involved.

 

[Neogaia777]

It's not a matter of some sins being more permissible though. No sin should be minimized, as if it's not really sin at all maybe; all sin should be looked at as an anomaly of nature, against God's will. And yet we may be held less accountable for some sins. If alcoholism is rampant in one person's family history while not in another's, which person is more likely to develop alcoholism themselves? And even in our criminal justice system, some crimes are punished more severely than others; we know intuitively that a person should be held to a higher level of accountability for more serious offenses. Should a person telling a white lie in order to gain some small advantage at work be considered as unrighteous as someone who murders their job competition at work? And some sins are, by their nature, directly opposed to love of God and neighbor, while others are not.

Various factors can be at play; knowledge and intent being most important. Does a person truly understand the gravity of the act? What's their own background; has abuse been involved? Are they aware that it is wrong at all? Are they committing it with deliberate intent? Varying levels of maliciousness are involved.

I like your post, but, with God there are varying degrees of punishment and/or reward, it is either eternal life in Heaven, or eternal death in Hell, and that's it... There is no "in-between...

So, I tend to think it would like @RDKirk said in post #78 tow posts above this, would be the number one determining factor, I would think...

Luke 18:9-14: Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner! I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

God Bless!