The Contradiction: Messages about God's Mercy, Love, and Grace and Messages about Judgment...?

fhansen

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I like your post, but, with God there are varying degrees of punishment and/or reward, it is either eternal life in Heaven, or eternal death in Hell, and that's it... There is no "in-between...

So, I tend to think it would like @RDKirk said in post #78 tow posts above this, would be the number one determining factor, I would think...

Luke 18:9-14: Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner! I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

God Bless!
Sure, humility causes us to admit we're sinners, but it certainly doesn't want us to remain there-and God doesn't want us there; He didn't create us to be sinners after all. If we have no choice in the matter to begin with, then we'd have no guilt either. But instead, God says that we do have a choice. We're not only forgiven, but we're now to go, and sin no more, with His help according to the New Covenant. The slate is wiped clean, we're made new creations; are we to mock God by continuing in sin-or thinking that should remain the norm for us, as if nothing's changed? Are we to reject or despise Him all over again as Adam did?

Grace is not merely about forgiveness but it's about relationship with God, 'apart from whom we can do nothing', whereby justice is restored and we can begin to live as we were created to live, which excludes sin. The first justice which man obtains is the very communion with God that he was made for, and that Adam effectively rejected. From God's abiding in us, He does a work in us, of justifying, of placing His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts. He does this by transforming us into His own image, the image of He who is love. That's how justice is arrived at for man, that's how the law is fulfilled.

While we're called to be holy as He is holy, and perfect because He is perfect, and are expected to strive increasingly towards that goal, He doesn't expect us to necessarily achieve total perfection in that in this life. But He does expect us to grow in love, and "love covers a multitude of sins". But if we commit murder, rape, theft, etc, are we loving our neighbor-or God? Of course not, so there are sins where love is little compromised if at all, and sins that oppose and destroy love in us. Love is the key, on which we'll be judged. And there's no pride in love-just the opposite.
 
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Neogaia777

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Sure, humility causes us to admit we're sinners, but it certainly doesn't want us to remain there-and God doesn't want us there; He didn't create us to be sinners after all.

No, he does not want us to sin or be sinners, but he does want us to be and remain humble, maybe even if that means having to stay or remain in sin or some sins to maintain that state, if that has to be the case and/or be so, maybe...

And we may not be meant to be or get out of them, if means sacrificing our humbleness and/or humility, or our true God-given identity to do so, (and not being or becoming like Satan, or Lucifer) maybe...?

Not quite sure which he considers more important...?

Now, if we could have "both" that would be great, but realistically, very, very few people can actually pull that off...

I'd love to be able to though...

If we have no choice in the matter to begin with, then we'd have no guilt either. But instead, God says that we do have a choice.

Maybe, maybe not...? We'll find out one day, and all will be explained either way...

We're not only forgiven, but we're now to go, and sin no more, with His help according to the New Covenant. The slate is wiped clean, we're made new creations; are we to mock God by continuing in sin-or thinking that should remain the norm for us, as if nothing's changed?

No, but it is process that may not be fully completed "here" or in this world/reality or this lifetime...

Are we to reject or despise Him all over again as Adam did?

I don't know that Adam and Eve consciously did that...? It's possible that it could have all been a set up from the beginning, and God might have fully intended for that to happen, for a much higher reason and/or purpose than most of us seem to know (about) right now...

Grace is not merely about forgiveness but it's about relationship with God, 'apart from whom we can do nothing', whereby justice is restored and we can begin to live as we were created to live, which excludes sin.

Key word being "begin to", and as I just said, about sin, it's a "process" that may not ever be or become fully complete(d) in this life here... (just trying to be realistic)...

The first justice which man obtains is the very communion with God that he was made for,

Agree...

and that Adam effectively rejected.

I don't think, full well knowingly...

Any one of us in his position with what he knew and/or did not know, I think would have been pre-disposed to do the same (thing he/they did in the Garden of Eden)...

From God's abiding in us, He does a work in us, of justifying, of placing His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts. He does this by transforming us into His own image, the image of He who is love.

Yes, that is the "process" and that's how it happens and/or begins to happen/happens ect...

That's how justice is arrived at for man, that's how the law is fulfilled.

The law is fulfilled, or maybe even begins to be possibly fulfilled "in us" like it was with Jesus, in and with us, by walking in, not the letter of the Law, but it's Spirit... And instead of the letter of it, (which is flesh and our own will) allowing the Spirit of it to work in us and do it's will in us, and through us, and for us, and, "our part" is walking in and keeping the Faith, no matter what, and also, "Love", which is written on, or in our born again hearts and consciences...

While we're called to be holy as He is holy, and perfect because He is perfect, and are expected to strive increasingly towards that goal, He doesn't expect us to necessarily achieve total perfection in that in this life. But He does expect us to grow in love, and "love covers a multitude of sins".

Now your speaking my language...

But if we commit murder, rape, theft, etc, are we loving our neighbor-or God?

No were not... but I do believe they are forgivable, and that the price Jesus paid even for that and those is "enough"...

so there are sins where love is little compromised if at all,

Yes, but does that make those sins any "better" or more permissible in God's eyes, or/and should we see them that way at all, even if they are sins that do not get in the way of Love so much, or as much, as maybe some others can...? (truth is all of them do, but maybe perhaps some less than others, ect, maybe)...

and sins that oppose and destroy love in us. Love is the key, on which we'll be judged. And there's no pride in love-just the opposite.

Faith and Love (and Love is humble and not proud or arrogant) (not selfish or self-serving, ect)...

But, yes, our Faith and our Love is what I think will be the number one, or one of the number one(s), determining factor in God's Judgement of us...

However it must also be or become a "mature Love" and not stay or remain and immature, carnal, or worldly kind of Love, but must become and/or mature into the Godly kind (of Love)... It's not so much about "feelings", but "choices", and/or actions taken, (or not taken in some cases) and/or decisions made...

Good Post though, I liked it...

God Bless!
 
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corinth77777

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Yes. And so, in the real-world military example, what would that look like?

Humility would look like a troop acknowledging that he'd done wrong, accepting any punishment, and turning over a new leaf. Pride would look like a troop who denied that what he'd done was wrong and denied that the commander had authority over him.

And for sure, humility would have been more likely to elicit mercy than pride, even in that human situation. Even an human judge knows what mercy is.

And the Lord continued, "Listen to what that corrupt judge said. Now, will God not judge in favor of his own people who cry to him day and night for help? Will he be slow to help them?
Hi, I was really trying to point out...that when it states God has mercy on whom He wishes that in my opinion...His mercy is still not without His order. For God did make promises...and He is not a God that I believe will break them. Another words humility is most likely in whom He will show mercy on.
And God will stand by His word.
 
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corinth77777

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I believe it takes 2 to tangle
Have you ever heard people say God is not through with me yet?
As if Osmosis...one just soaks God up...and they/we play no part...
However God was teaching Abraham..through experience and just as Love is a learned concept...Abrahamed learned to depend on God.

I'm both scared and excited....because giving up power you feel you have no control....But maybe it will be just the opposite...that God really wants us to have control or power over thing as long as our heart is fixed on Him....If the heart is made right...Im sure He will not mind giving us controll over many things because He knows we will do right by what He gives us.
I guess my negative thought that spurred up was an example of leaning to my own understanding....I hope God will keep me around long enough where I can be used by Him....How amazing He is! Amen?
 
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Oldmantook

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You mean like my habitual sin of smoking cigarettes...?

Cause I just don't think that will send to hell even if I smoke till the day I die or it kills me...

Or, what about behavior that is wrong, but is habitual... it works very much like an addiction does, and how many people have a problem with that, especially today...? And will not having perfect behavior (habitual sins) (or predisposed or pre-programed by life's) behavior's or sins, or what we used to call in my field that I used to work in's, (the mentally unwell's) "Behaviors"...

Are they sins and/or sinful...? Cause the Bible says they are... And they are habitual also... And all too many of them are "programmed" or pre-disposed to be that way, does that make them wrong or evil or sinful (not having perfect behavior)...?

And/cause many people's behavior and/or attitudes or whatever, that I see nearly everyone doing from time to time, are technically (and biblically) sinful and are evil by nature...

Do they go to hell if they cannot repent of all of it/them and not never ever do them anymore after that...?

God Bless!
Since I don't smoke, I can't comment on cigarettes. That would be up to you. Behavior that is wrong but sinful? Hmm...if someone constantly steals, that would make him a thief. If someone is in the habit of telling lies, that would make him a liar. If a married person is habitually engaged in sex with others other than the one he is married to makes him an adulterer. If someone is addicted to alcohol, that would make him a drunkard. Do you think they go to hell - even if they are believers? Let's allow the scriptures to speak for themselves:
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:9-10
 
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Neogaia777

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Since I don't smoke, I can't comment on cigarettes. That would be up to you. Behavior that is wrong but sinful? Hmm...if someone constantly steals, that would make him a thief. If someone is in the habit of telling lies, that would make him a liar. If a married person is habitually engaged in sex with others other than the one he is married to makes him an adulterer. If someone is addicted to alcohol, that would make him a drunkard. Do you think they go to hell - even if they are believers? Let's allow the scriptures to speak for themselves:
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:9-10
What about being proud, puffed up, arrogant, egotistical, self-righteous, judgmental, critical, criticizing, judgmental and condemning in nature, and just all around mean, nasty and "wrong", and very angry, hateful, bitter, jealous, ect, ect (the list goes on) "self-assuming", haughty, ect...

Why do we so easily, or why do "some of us so easily" tend to "overlook" and/or ignore, and/or seem to be very "blind" to "these things"...

Why do you think that is...? And does the Law or the OC do that, or not...?

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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What about being proud, puffed up, arrogant, egotistical, self-righteous, judgmental, critical, criticizing, judgmental and condemning in nature, and just all around mean, nasty and "wrong", and very angry, hateful, bitter, jealous, ect, ect (the list goes on) "self-assuming", haughty, ect...

Why do we so easily, or why do "some of us so easily" tend to "overlook" and/or ignore, and/or seem to be very "blind" to "these things"...

Why do you think that is...? And does the Law or the OC do that, or not...?

God Bless!
When you say "sin" to them, they are very unlikely to think of and/or mention these things...?

And why is that...?

God Bless!
 
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Oldmantook

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What about being proud, puffed up, arrogant, egotistical, self-righteous, judgmental, critical, criticizing, judgmental and condemning in nature, and just all around mean, nasty and "wrong", and very angry, hateful, bitter, jealous, ect, ect (the list goes on) "self-assuming", haughty, ect...

Why do we so easily, or why do "some of us so easily" tend to "overlook" and/or ignore, and/or seem to be very "blind" to "these things"...

Why do you think that is...? And does the Law or the OC do that, or not...?

God Bless!
Yes, I would consider those to be sins also and apply to myself which I plead guilty. You ask me why they are easy to ignore? I think it's because we have lowered the standard of what it means to live a holy/sanctified life, pleasing to God. We have instead used easy grace as an excuse for sinful behaviors and the fear of God is no longer a motivating factor in Western Christianity (Phil 2:12). We emphasize Jn 3:16 and believe we are saved to the exclusion of Heb 5:9.
 
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Neogaia777

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Yes, I would consider those to be sins also and apply to myself which I plead guilty. You ask me why they are easy to ignore? I think it's because we have lowered the standard of what it means to live a holy/sanctified life, pleasing to God. We have instead used easy grace as an excuse for sinful behaviors and the fear of God is no longer a motivating factor in Western Christianity (Phil 2:12). We emphasize Jn 3:16 and believe we are saved to the exclusion of Heb 5:9.
I will admit there are "problems" on both sides...

But I think we must all get on the side of Grace, Mercy, Love, ect, and then, "then, work on those other problems and/or issues associated with Faith alone", (and/or Mercy and Grace and Love, and compassion, forgiveness, ect), before we'll ever truly get anywhere in and with the "Truth" or (with) the Holy Spirit of Truth, in any real, true, or any real, true or genuine fashion and/or way...

Don't you...?
 
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RDKirk

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What about being proud, puffed up, arrogant, egotistical, self-righteous, judgmental, critical, criticizing, judgmental and condemning in nature, and just all around mean, nasty and "wrong", and very angry, hateful, bitter, jealous, ect, ect (the list goes on) "self-assuming", haughty, ect...

Why do we so easily, or why do "some of us so easily" tend to "overlook" and/or ignore, and/or seem to be very "blind" to "these things"...

Why do you think that is...? And does the Law or the OC do that, or not...?

God Bless!

Meddling. Don't forget meddling.
 
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