The C# Church is definitely not the AntiChrist

[EastCoastRemnant]

That didn't help much.... what happens if I confess to my pastor (which btw, is not a protestant understanding or practice) and he forges me but he is in the office of pastor fraudulently... does that mean my sins are not forgiven?

 

[ViaCrucis]

That didn't help much.... what happens if I confess to my pastor (which btw, is not a protestant understanding or practice) and he forges me but he is in the office of pastor fraudulently... does that mean my sins are not forgiven?

It is a Protestant practice actually. Lutherans are the original Protestants. What you mean is that it isn't a practice which was retained in the Reformed and Radical branches of Protestantism, and is not practiced by Neo-Protestant groups.

What do you mean "in the office of pastor fraudulently"? How does one become a pastor fraudulently?

If the issue is the moral capacity of the pastor, well the heresies of Novatian and Donatus are rejected by Lutherans--the efficacy of God's Word and Sacraments stand on their own, not on the ability of the one preaching and administering. It is the grace and power of God alone, not the work of men.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Not surprising the RC didn't read or try to understand Revelation considering the light it shines upon the Papacy.

Biblical scholars understand the book of Revelation quite well enough. It's a commentary on the Jewish-Roman war written in apocalyptic discourse. It says nothing of the papacy.

Regarding the renewed interest in the books of Daniel and Revelation, that was prophesied to happen in Daniel at the time of the end, when if you do a study on it, occurred after the persecution of God's people ended in 1798.

That's hilarious and wrong. Why do you believe strange things which don't have a semblance of logic or rationality that backs them up? If you did a study on the book of Revelation you'd probably find most academic biblical scholars talking predominantly about the Roman imperial cult. You may find it interesting but the words "the end of the world" do not appear in the book of Revelation at all.

It was after this time that the Holy Spirit was poured out upon men, Bible societies and missionary stations were spreading like wildfire and men were given understandings of the prophesies in Daniel that had not been understood beforehand. The events of Revelation are a perfect unfolding of the church over the centuries. Read the book The Seer of Patmos to understand that history and prophesy have always worked in God's perfect order.

Again, strange. Why believe strange things when you could believe rational things? The events of Revelation are interpretations of the destruction of the Jewish temple and glimpses, or rather "unveiling" of the reality behind these events as far as the author sees.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

What do you mean "in the office of pastor fraudulently"? How does one become a pastor fraudulently?

Here's some texts that would most likely disqualify alot of the clergy in any denomination... if they don't meet these standards, they are not ordained by God...by man maybe, but not God.

1 Timothy 3:1-13
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Likewise must the deacons be grave, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.


Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;


Titus 1:11
Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

--the efficacy of God's Word and Sacraments stand on their own, not on the ability of the one preaching and administering. It is the grace and power of God alone, not the work of men.

-CryptoLutheran

Then what's the point of ordaining them then... Me thinks He entrusts in those worthy for the office (see above scripture), an increase of His Holy Spirit. He holds them to a higher accountability as entrusted shepherds of Christ's flock.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Biblical scholars understand the book of Revelation quite well enough. It's a commentary on the Jewish-Roman war written in apocalyptic discourse. It says nothing of the papacy.

I would humbly ask you read this book to see reasoned, Biblical analysis of the Revelation. The exegesis is sound... read and be blessed.
https://archive.org/details/storyofseerofpat00hask

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

That's hilarious and wrong. Why do you believe strange things which don't have a semblance of logic or rationality that backs them up?

Careful, your hubris is showing... the books of Daniel and Revelation have been studied extensively by Adventists for over 150 years. No other denomination has even come close to doing the level of exegesis on these two books that we have. There are 348 OT quotes and references in the book of Revelation, so proof text interpretation is needed to understand the symbology contained in both books. Otherwise you are left guessing to what these symbols really mean... the Bible is it's own interpreter. God would not leave us without a clear understanding of His Word. That is what's so amazing about the Bible, it is a completely self contained expositor of truth that provide an eternity of layers of understanding in it.

For sincere seekers of truth, you owe it to yourself to read the book linked in the post above... the book of Revelation will open before your eyes like you can't imagine. Go on, prayerfully read it and then come back to talk to me if you don't understand these things to be true. I am not asking for you to believe me, see with you own eyes and allow the Spirit to reason with your own mind.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Here's some texts that would most likely disqualify alot of the clergy in any denomination... if they don't meet these standards, they are not ordained by God...by man maybe, but not God.

1 Timothy 3:1-13
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Likewise must the deacons be grave, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.


Titus 1:7
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;


Titus 1:11
Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.


Then what's the point of ordaining them then... Me thinks He entrusts in those worthy for the office (see above scripture), an increase of His Holy Spirit. He holds them to a higher accountability as entrusted shepherds of Christ's flock.

And pastors ought to be these things, when a pastor errors he should be disciplined, he is held accountable to the Church.

But being a sinner doesn't disqualify the Gospel, the power of the Gospel is not somehow rendered void because it is preached by sinful people. Again, the heresies of Novatian and Donatus are not acceptable. Since all are sinners, the only people who can preach the Gospel are sinners, the only people who can administer the Sacraments are sinners.

Further, nobody is worthy of the office. The gifts of God are given not to the worthy, but to unworthy sinners. Christ came to call the unrighteous, a physician treats the sick not the well. Frankly, if someone thinks they are holy and pristine and thus are, in their own ability, qualified by their own merits they--simply--aren't. Christ has gathered a Church of beggars, prostitutes, and thieves and, by His own righteousness, declared them saints of God.

Better that the true Gospel be preached by a murderer than a false gospel preached by the "holy".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

And pastors ought to be these things, when a pastor errors he should be disciplined, he is held accountable to the Church.

But being a sinner doesn't disqualify the Gospel, the power of the Gospel is not somehow rendered void because it is preached by sinful people. Again, the heresies of Novatian and Donatus are not acceptable. Since all are sinners, the only people who can preach the Gospel are sinners, the only people who can administer the Sacraments are sinners.

Further, nobody is worthy of the office. The gifts of God are given not to the worthy, but to unworthy sinners. Christ came to call the unrighteous, a physician treats the sick not the well. Frankly, if someone thinks they are holy and pristine and thus are, in their own ability, qualified by their own merits they--simply--aren't. Christ has gathered a Church of beggars, prostitutes, and thieves and, by His own righteousness, declared them saints of God.

Better that the true Gospel be preached by a murderer than a false gospel preached by the "holy".

-CryptoLutheran

We are only considered sinners outside the Grace of Christ... once He has justified us, we become righteous through His merits, His blood. Only when we succumb to sin again are we stained, in need of repentance and forgiveness to once again be cleansed. So a person who is continually surrendering to God and seeking His Spirit to be able to ask deliverance from temptations that come upon them... such persons are worthy of these offices. God knows the hearts of men... such men, though they stumble like David, Moses, Peter and Paul, are beloved of God and are accepted by Him to do His work.

 

[ViaCrucis]

We are only considered sinners outside the Grace of Christ... once He has justified us, we become righteous through His merits, His blood. Only when we succumb to sin again are we stained, in need of repentance and forgiveness to once again be cleansed. So a person who is continually surrendering to God and seeking His Spirit to be able to ask deliverance from temptations that come upon them... such persons are worthy of these offices. God knows the hearts of men... such men, though they stumble like David, Moses, Peter and Paul, are beloved of God and are accepted by Him to do His work.

My response only requires four words:
Simul iustus et peccator.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

My response only requires four words:
Simul iustus et peccator.

-CryptoLutheran

There ya go with that hubris peeking out again... unless it's just your nature to impress us to death with your scholarly intelligence, then I apologize and ask you to carry on.

Btw, from a lowly lay person such as myself, how is one still a sinner if he has been cleansed of sin and Christ is abiding in him. The passage says "All have sinned and come short..." note the word have... if we are always sinners, then it should read "All are sin and come short"...right? I always wondered what would be under those robes of righteousness Christ's puts on us, it's sin, right? Will we carry that label of sinner into eternity... likely a red letter S I would think but I'm sure you would know more than me, right professor?

 

[Wgw]

That didn't help much.... what happens if I confess to my pastor (which btw, is not a protestant understanding or practice) and he forges me but he is in the office of pastor fraudulently... does that mean my sins are not forgiven?

Lutherans and Anglicans, among others, have private confessions with their pastors, actually, and this has long been the case.

 

[ViaCrucis]

There ya go with that hubris peeking out again... unless it's just your nature to impress us to death with your scholarly intelligence, then I apologize and ask you to carry on.

Btw, from a lowly lay person such as myself, how is one still a sinner if he has been cleansed of sin and Christ is abiding in him. The passage says "All have sinned and come short..." note the word have... if we are always sinners, then it should read "All are sin and come short"...right? I always wondered what would be under those robes of righteousness Christ's puts on us, it's sin, right? Will we carry that label of sinner into eternity... likely a red letter S I would think but I'm sure you would know more than me, right professor?

If a Christian is no longer a sinner, then finding out who is a Christian should be as simple as finding someone who has stopped sinning. If you find such a person, let me know.

But in all seriousness it's pretty simple: The righteousness we have from Christ is an alien righteousness, it's not ours but Christ's. We are reckoned righteous on Christ's account, the fact remains that we, in our own power, remain the same unrighteous people we were because no one can be justified by the Law.

Read Romans chapters 7 and 8. And, no, Romans 7 is not Paul talking about his old life as Saul, it's very much the present reality of the struggle of sin as the old and new man wrestle, because we remain simultaneously saint and sinner.

If someone thinks themselves holy and righteous because of their own obedience to God's commands, well, then they should do well to remember Christ's parable of the Pharisee and the Publican.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Careful, your hubris is showing... the books of Daniel and Revelation have been studied extensively by Adventists for over 150 years. No other denomination has even come close to doing the level of exegesis on these two books that we have. There are 348 OT quotes and references in the book of Revelation, so proof text interpretation is needed to understand the symbology contained in both books. Otherwise you are left guessing to what these symbols really mean... the Bible is it's own interpreter. God would not leave us without a clear understanding of His Word. That is what's so amazing about the Bible, it is a completely self contained expositor of truth that provide an eternity of layers of understanding in it.

The book of Revelation has been studied quite extensively by academics as well. Certainly, academics aren't a denomination and don't input academia into their approach to the text yet they do study the text in order to attempt to understand it. You're correct in that the book of Revelation can and should be read intertextually in order to ascertain much of its meaning you're wrong in that the Bible doesn't always need to be considered its own interpreter, people interpret the Bible. The Bible is not a self-contained expositor of truth, that's preposterous, it's a collection of ancient religious texts, the meaning it has today is contingent upon how it is perceived as scripture.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

The book of Revelation has been studied quite extensively by academics as well. Certainly, academics aren't a denomination and don't input academia into their approach to the text yet they do study the text in order to attempt to understand it. You're correct in that the book of Revelation can and should be read intertextually in order to ascertain much of its meaning you're wrong in that the Bible doesn't always need to be considered its own interpreter, people interpret the Bible. The Bible is not a self-contained expositor of truth, that's preposterous, it's a collection of ancient religious texts, the meaning it has today is contingent upon how it is perceived as scripture.

I guess that's the difference... you see the Bible as nuggets of truth whereas I see the Bible and history as a complete chainmaille, for both are His.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

If someone thinks themselves holy and righteous because of their own obedience to God's commands, well, then they should do well to remember Christ's parable of the Pharisee and the Publican.
-CryptoLutheran

That's the point, we are never to think ourselves as anything more than unworthy. The moment we do we have again sinned and need cleansing. But the promise and assurance is there that through repentance and forgiveness we are blameless in the sight of God, not in our own sight. This is the putting off of the old man, our pride and folly. Through Christ we are no longer sinners but heirs of the promise. Through Christ's righteousness we are healed.

To me, to continue to call ourselves sinners when we are abiding in Him is to doubt what He has promised.... is someone that stops drinking still an alcoholic? Or is being an alcoholic a product of their drinking? If, or when they fall off the wagon, they are again in their alcoholic state but not while they have gained the victory and are in a sober state.

That is my understanding of the matter, I know others won't see it the same and perhaps I haven't conveyed it sufficiently, but no matter. Let each be convinced in their own mind, right?

 

[com7fy8]

Paul speaks of the "man of lawlessness", in certain translation work of 2 Thessalonians 2:3; this one "opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped". And we have that this one is called "the lawless one", in 2 Thessalonians 2:8.

So, I can see that this "son of perdition" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) will not be a part of any group who already have one whom they worship as "God". And if this one is "lawless", this could mean this one will not go along with any sort of rules which any group now has.

This could be a narcissist one who will not negotiate according to or answer to any standards . . . of "Christian" or Muslim or atheist or humanist or any other people.

Also, about lawlessness > Jesus says,

"'And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.'" (Matthew 24:12)

So, this enemy will be one who is love-dead because of his lawlessness. And we need to make sure that we do not allow lawlessness to turn us cold, but live and grow in God's love which "never fails" > 1 Corinthians 13:8. This is our most important way of dealing with who is the anti-Christ: how we grow in real love, so that the anti-Christ and any and all evil can not have power over us to turn our love cold.

"Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I guess that's the difference... you see the Bible as nuggets of truth whereas I see the Bible and history as a complete chainmaille, for both are His.

Actually that's not the difference. You see the bible through the lens of a couple of centuries worth of Adventism, I don't. I see it through the lens of scholarship and academia.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Lutherans and Anglicans, among others, have private confessions with their pastors, actually, and this has long been the case.

Speaking of those of us who are Lutheran,

"Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19:12." - Article XI of the Augsburg Confession

"Of Repentance they teach that for those who have fallen after Baptism there is remission of sins whenever they are converted and that the Church ought to impart absolution to those thus returning to repentance. Now, repentance consists properly of these two parts: One is contrition, that is, terrors smiting the conscience through the knowledge of sin; the other is faith, which is born of the Gospel, or of absolution, and believes that for Christ's sake, sins are forgiven, comforts the conscience, and delivers it from terrors. Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruits of repentance.

They condemn the Anabaptists, who deny that those once justified can lose the Holy Ghost. Also those who contend that some may attain to such perfection in this life that they cannot sin.

The Novatians also are condemned, who would not absolve such as had fallen after Baptism, though they returned to repentance.

They also are rejected who do not teach that remission of sins comes through faith but command us to merit grace through satisfactions of our own." - Article XII of the Augsburg Confession

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

That's the point, we are never to think ourselves as anything more than unworthy. The moment we do we have again sinned and need cleansing. But the promise and assurance is there that through repentance and forgiveness we are blameless in the sight of God, not in our own sight. This is the putting off of the old man, our pride and folly. Through Christ we are no longer sinners but heirs of the promise. Through Christ's righteousness we are healed.

To me, to continue to call ourselves sinners when we are abiding in Him is to doubt what He has promised.... is someone that stops drinking still an alcoholic? Or is being an alcoholic a product of their drinking? If, or when they fall off the wagon, they are again in their alcoholic state but not while they have gained the victory and are in a sober state.

That is my understanding of the matter, I know others won't see it the same and perhaps I haven't conveyed it sufficiently, but no matter. Let each be convinced in their own mind, right?

How can one confess his sins unless he recognize himself a sinner? Only a sinner can sin. And only a sinner can receive forgiveness of his sins. Christ does not call the well, but the sick, the unrighteous not the righteous. And it is Christ Himself who calls us to repentance and to confession of sin; so who is Christ speaking to unless it is to sinners? And if we are not sinners then we must therefore insist that Christ is not speaking to us, and if Christ's word is not to us, then from where comes faith? For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.

The word of God's precious Gospel is for the unrighteous, for sinners, for you and me.

-CryptoLuthearn

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

How can one confess his sins unless he recognize himself a sinner? Only a sinner can sin. And only a sinner can receive forgiveness of his sins. Christ does not call the well, but the sick, the unrighteous not the righteous. And it is Christ Himself who calls us to repentance and to confession of sin; so who is Christ speaking to unless it is to sinners? And if we are not sinners then we must therefore insist that Christ is not speaking to us, and if Christ's word is not to us, then from where comes faith? For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.

The word of God's precious Gospel is for the unrighteous, for sinners, for you and me.

-CryptoLuthearn

All true but once we are called and accept are we still sinners in sin? Or are we then heirs according to the promise? Can one be an heir, a child of God as a sinner? Maybe all this is semantics but I am encouraged that while I am in communion with Christ, my sins are washed away and God remembers them no more... so to be still called a sinner, reminds me of something God has forgotten. Is this guilt something the saints should bear?