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Featured The Bible is not a Catechetical Book!

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by JesusLovesOurLady, Oct 2, 2017.

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  1. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Yes your hit and run has several responses. This poster @PeaceByJesus took the time to refute each point. Did not want you to miss it.

    The Bible is not a Catechetical Book!
     
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  2. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Then why did you posit this canned polemics?

    If you post a challenge it is only etiquette to respond.
     
  3. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    A challenge it was not.

    Maybe a gambit, a losing one.... but not a challenge....

    Etiquette? < shrugs > ....... there is so much more a lot more important ......
     
  4. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Well, you see, even though they were fulfilling Judaism they just neglected to write it down like God had them do for preservation as inspired Scripture, for as seen in 2 Chronicles 34:14-33, oral tradition did not keep the nation from going South but left them overall ignorant of the law of God, while it was finding and reading the book of the Law that resulted in conviction and national restoration.

    But when inspired Scripture is made to conform the uninspired writings of men that you have a cult, while lacking even sound historical testimony from where it would be found, Catholics can simply claim their church remembers what neither Christ nor history did tell them. Aa a man named Ratzinger testified,

    Before Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven was defined, all theological faculties in the world were consulted for their opinion. Our teachers' answer was emphatically negative... Altaner, the patrologist from Wurzburg¦had proven in a scientifically persuasive manner that the doctrine of Mary's bodily Assumption into heaven was unknown before the 5C; this doctrine, therefore, he argued, could not belong to the "apostolic tradition. And this was his conclusion, which my teachers at Munich shared.

    But...subsequent "remembering" (cf. Jn 16:4, for instance) can come to recognize what it has not caught sight of previously [because there was nothing to see in the earliest period where it should have been, before a fable developed] .." J. Ratzinger, Milestones (Ignatius, n.d.), pp. 58-59.


    The mere fact that the Church teaches the doctrine of the Assumption as definitely true is a guarantee that it is true.” — Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1988), p. 275.

    More on the presumption of the Assumption here, by God's grace.
     
  5. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Well, almost, and you can understand how we may get that demigoddess impression from the uncensored ascription's and adulation of Catholics.

    For thinking of mortals far above what is written. (cf. 1Cor. 4:6) in the Catholic quest to almost deify Mary, it is taught by Catholics*,

    As the the Son of God has a unique unique relationship with the Persons of the Trinity, so also Mary is said to have a unique relationship with all three Persons of the Trinity;

    As Christ is the express image of God, and highly exalted above all under the Father, having the primary position among all creation, so Mary is declared to be the greatest saint of all, and the first of all creatures, and as having a certain affinity with the Father, with a pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father;

    As Christ was called the Son of God, indicating ontological oneness, so Mary is called the Mother of God (which naturally infers the same, and is not the language of Scripture, which even clarifies Israel birthed Christ "according to the flesh, God blessed for ever": Rm. 9:4,5);

    As the the Son of God supernaturally, spiritually makes believing souls into children of God, Mary is said to be the mother of Christians in "supernatural and spiritual generation."

    As Christ was sinless, so Mary was;

    As the Lord remained a virgin, so also Mary;

    As the Lord was bodily ascended into Heaven, so Mary also was;

    As the Father made Christ Lord over all things, so Mary is said to be enthroned above all creation (all other believers have to wait for their crowns) and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things;

    As Christ is given all power in heaven and in earth, so Mary is “surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven.”

    As Christ is given all power on Heaven and on earth, so Mary is said to have (showing some restraint) “almost unlimited power;” and showing less restraint, to be "omnipotent" (by grace);

    As God the Father made His Divine Son functionally the Lord over the universe, so Mary states, "I command what I will, and introduce whom I will."

    As no man comes to the Father but through the Son, so it is taught that no one can come to the Son except through Mary in Heaven;

    As those whom God has chosen will come to Him, so it is said that if Mary wills our salvation, and then we are sure to obtain it.

    As the emphasis is upon Christ as the Creator through whom God (the Father) made all things, including Mary, so it is emphasized that uniquely “to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood,” shed for the salvation of mankind, (the logic behind which can lead back to Eve);

    As Scripture declares that Christ suffered for our sins, so Mary is said to have done so also, even all the consequences of sin;

    As Christ redeemed mankind (as many as truly believe) with the Father and the Spirit, so it is said of Mary that "we might rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ."

    As Christ saves us from the condemnation and death resulting from the fault of Adam, so it is taught that man was condemned through the fault of Eve, the root of death, but that we are saved through the merits of Mary; who was the source of life for everyone.

    As all things come from the Father through the Son, so Mary is made to be the dispenser of all grace; that "through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation."

    As believers have confidence through Christ, so Mary is extolled as being the foundation of all the believer's confidence.

    As the Lord wills all souls to be saved through Christ, so it is said that it is God's will that we obtain everything through Mary.

    And as the Lord called souls to come to Him to be given life and salvation, so (in misappropriation of the words of Scripture) it is said of Mary, “He that shall find me shall find life, and shall have salvation from the Lord;” “that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will, that we obtain everything through Mary.”

    As Christ is the King of the saints and over all kings, (Rv. 15:3; 17:14; 19:16) so Mary is made Queen of Heaven and the greatest saint, and that “Next to God, she deserves the highest praise;”

    As Christ ever liveth to make intercession for the saints, so is Mary said to be in constant intercession;

    as only to God is ascribed the power and privilege of hearing prayer from all flesh, so also is Mary extolled as doing so;

    as believers only address God/Christ in prayer to Heaven, including in prostration before Him, so also do Catholics pray to Mary;

    as believers only pray to God to have mercy on sinners, so Catholics beseech Mary to do so.

    As Catholics (adding error to error) believe Christ gave His "real" flesh and blood to be eaten, so it is emphasized that Mary gave Him this, being fashioned out of Mary's pure blood and even being “kneaded with the admixture of her virginal milk,” so that she can say, "Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared" (Prov. 9:5);

    And as Christ is given many titles of honor, so Mary also is, except that she is honored by Catholics with more titles than they give to the Lord Himself!

    Sources.

    One would have a hard time in Bible times justifying kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power and glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them

    Which manner of adulation would constitute worship in Scripture, yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

    Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
  6. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Well, thankfully and with great accuracy others believe this is a sure way to discover what is false.....

    Once anyone,anyone at all, discovers this, that is a great day indeed (for them).
     
  7. JesusLovesOurLady

    JesusLovesOurLady Slave of the Handmaid of the Lord

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    Okay, I want come back to this, and have you ponder what I am about to say, this applies to both Sola Scriptura and Sola Fidei. For we're just looking at this in the context of Sola Scriptura, but I highly encourage you, to look at how this applies to Sola Fidei as well, in fact, I'm actually considering doing a Sola Fidei debate, but I'm not sure yet, I still need think and pray about this. For now, let's just consider the following sentence:

    "I ordered hamburgers"
    What does that sentence mean? "I ordered hamburgers" did I order frozen hamburger patties? Or cooked hamburgers on a bun? Did I order just the hamburgers, just the burger and the bun? Or did I order hamburgers with lettuce, tomato, onions, etc. Or did I order hamburgers, each with it's own special toppings; one has hotsauce; one's a cheeseburger, one has no onions etc.? And that's just a few ways of interpreting this sentence, there are plenty of other ways of interpreting this. Consider if we examine which of the three words is being emphasized:

    "I ordered hamburgers"

    "I ordered hamburgers"

    "I ordered hamburgers"

    If we already have this many ways of interpreting just one three-word sentence, consider how vast the Bible is, and how many passages there are, where we can run into the same problem as we have here.
    Think about that.

    I have college tomorrow so I won't be home until late this evening. I call on all my fellow-Catholics to fill in for me while I'm gone, keep up the good work.
     
  8. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Glory to God for what good and edifying.
     
  9. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    So you mean the veracity of oral preaching and claims to be sacred tradition was based upon the premise of ensured magisterial infallibility as per Rome, which was essential in order to ascertain what was of God, or preaching and truth claims were established upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, and was subject to testing by the inspired written word, and which was established as being so and authoritative without infallible magisterial decree?
    And there are 1,000s upon 1,000s of people who engage in logical fallacies such as yours here, the premise of which is that if something results in deleterious division, then it must always do so. And which presumes that there is an alternative that does not.

    But the reality is that under both SS and "sola ecclesia" there is division, and what one really believes is manifest by what they effect and do. (Mt. 7:20;Ja. 2:18) And it is those who most strongly hold to Scripture as basically being the literal word of God that testify to being the most unified in basic beliefs in contrast to those whom Rome treats as members in life and in death.

    Meanwhile, while evangelical-types have historically been unified by common contention for certain core Truth, yet disagree to varying degrees on others, Catholics can profess consent to certain core Truths yet disagree to varying degrees on others, and interpret Catholic teaching differently.

    Even presently, while historical RC teaching states such things as,

    It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock...the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors. - VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906.

    To the shepherds alone was given all power to teach, to judge, to direct; on the faithful was imposed the duty of following their teaching, of submitting with docility to their judgment , and of allowing themselves to be governed, corrected, and guided by them in the way of salvation.

    Thus, it is an absolute necessity for the simple faithful to submit in mind and heart to their own pastors, and for the latter to submit with them to the Head and Supreme Pastor.... Similarly, it is to give proof of a submission which is far from sincere to set up some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them; and in some ways they resemble those who, on receiving a condemnation, would wish to appeal to a future council, or to a Pope who is better informed.

    On this point what must be remembered is that in the government of the Church, except for the essential duties imposed on all Pontiffs by their apostolic office, each of them can adopt the attitude which he judges best according to times and circumstances. Of this he alone is the judge. It is true that for this he has not only special lights, but still more the knowledge of the needs and conditions of the whole of Christendom, for which, it is fitting, his apostolic care must provide. - Epistola Tua (1885), Apostolic Letter of Pope Leo XIII;


    For it is quite foreign to everyone bearing the name of a Christian to trust his own mental powers with such pride as to agree only with those things which he can examine from their inner nature, and to imagine that the Church, sent by God to teach and guide all nations, is not conversant with present affairs and circumstances; or even that they must obey only in those matters which she has decreed by solemn definition as though her other decisions might be presumed to be false or putting forward insufficient motive for truth and honesty.

    Quite to the contrary, a characteristic of all true followers of Christ, lettered or unlettered, is to suffer themselves to be guided and led in all things that touch upon faith or morals by the Holy Church of God through its Supreme Pastor the Roman Pontiff, who is himself guided by Jesus Christ Our Lord. - CASTI CONNUBII, ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XI;


    Yet Catholicism today is divided over Vatican 2 rightly interpreted historical Catholic teaching, or sometimes taught contrary to it. And whether dissent from the required assent can be public.

    But while such RCs presume freedom to ascertain the validity of Catholic teaching based upon their judgment of what past teaching mean, when we do the same and find it invalid, then we are told we need to be in submission to the pope. But what that all means is itself is subject to interpretation.

    And whether pope Francis is leading souls astray or not, either by informal comments or official actions and or if assent to his prolix papal encyclical is binding.

    Just last week, an Opus Dei leader criticized signatories of a recently-published “filial correction” of Pope Francis regarding “heresies” propagated by the pontiff, signed by 216 professors and clergy "correctors" of the pope.

    Philosophy professor and friend of Pope St. John Paul II Rocco Buttiglione criticized the signatories for standing as “judges over the Pope” and questioned their authority to do so. (Critics of Filial Correction of Pope Francis Weigh In)
    Which is so much bombastic assertion. The church that the Lord bought with His sinless shed blood simply did not manifest Catholic distinctives, as listed here, by God's grace.

    And in contrast to Peter, that the LORD Jesus is the Rock (“petra”) or "stone" (“lithos,” and which denotes a large rock in Mk. 16:4) upon which the church is built is one of the most abundantly confirmed doctrines in the Bible (petra: Rm. 9:33; 1Cor. 10:4; 1Pet. 2:8; cf. Lk. 6:48; 1Cor. 3:11; lithos: Mat. 21:42; Mk.12:10-11; Lk. 20:17-18; Act. 4:11; Rm. 9:33; Eph. 2:20; cf. Dt. 32:4, Is. 28:16) including by Peter himself. (1Pt. 2:4-8) Rome's current catechism attempts to have Peter himself as the rock as well, but also affirms: “On the rock of this faith confessed by St Peter, Christ build his Church,” (pt. 1, sec. 2, cp. 2, para. 424) which understanding some of the so-called “church fathers” concur with.)
    The Peter of Scripture was not the papal Peter of Rome, and had no manifest successors in Scripture, except presbuteros/episkopos, not Cath hiereus (distinctive priesthood).
    Meaning rather that Scripture is very dangerous to the falsehood of Catholicism, and thus for hundreds of years it hindered the ability to freely have and read the Bible, believing that "if the Sacred Books are permitted everywhere and without discrimination in the vernacular, there will by reason of the boldness of men arise therefrom more harm than good..."
    Rome has no authority to presume the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility, and to thereby make her words equal to and above Scripture.
    Thank God, and who has thus led multitudes out of Rome to find life and pasture in "Bible churches." I am glad to be one.
     
  10. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    And so somehow Catholicism solves this? In all her history, has Rome ever published an official commentary on the whole Bible? And do you affirm the veracity of the notes and helps in your officially sanctioned NAB?

    And on ground level where it counts, just what do Catholics profess versus "Bible Christians."

    Meanwhile, where do you see an infallible church being essential for common people assuredly ascertaining what/who is of God?
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  11. jax5434

    jax5434 Member

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    This an excellent example of the dangers of proof texting. One must always know and consider context before deducing the meaning of a statement.

    If “I ordered hamburgers” was preceded by the statement “We went to Burger King and…” we can eliminate the possibility that you ordered frozen or uncooked hamburgers as it is well established fact that Burger King does not serve hamburgers in those manners. Because of our understanding of cultural norms, we would consider it highly unlikely that you would order just the patty. Not absolutely 100 percent certain but a very safe assumption. The special toppings are non-essential as none of them would negate the fact that what you ordered was a hamburger.

    In the sentence “I ordered hamburgers” even without context we can learn quite a bit. If you emphasize “I ordered hamburgers” Or “I ordered hamburgers” the information content does not change. A person referred to as “I” ordered a sandwich called a “hamburger” and because we have a plethora of other references to hamburgers we know with certainty what a hamburger is and the cultural norm for serving one (cooked not raw or frozen) Because we know what a hamburger is it would be unlikely that the sentence should be read ‘I ordered hamburgers”. Why would you order them to do anything? And why did you expect them obey? Or do you just habitually order inanimate things to do stuff?

    There are many passages in the bible that require both contextual and cultural understanding to interpret. Fortunately, both context and culture can be uncovered with a bit of research or by reading scholarly works. Most importantly there is an old protestant saying, “The main things are plain things” meaning that all we need to know about salvation can be clearly understood without extensive study.

    God Bless

    Jax
     
  12. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    The CC still stands strong in rough sees. Jesus did say the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. Many have tried to sink it, from within and without.

    The people are fallible. The church is not. It may have crumbling walls or roofs but it's foundation is solid and it's cornerstone is Jesus Christ!
     
  13. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I am not a Catholic but I would certainly disagree.

    You as a Catholic try to prove the infallibility of the Catholic Church by stating that the Catholic Church is the infallible interpreter of the Bible. Your claim makes the church equal, if not superior, to the Bible and is another of their efforts to present the Catholic Church as an authority in religion instead of the Bible only. Please notice the following from Catholic sources:

    1). "To make it in any sense an infallible revelation, or in other words a revelation at all to us, we need a power to interpret the testament that shall have equal authority with that testament itself." (The Question Box, p. 95)

    2). "An infallible Bible is no use without an infallible interpreter..." (My Catholic Faith, p. 145).

    3)."...The Scriptures can never serve as a complete Rule of Faith and a complete guide to heaven independently of an authorized, living interpreter." (The Faith of Our Fathers, p. 68).

    4)."The Church is the only divinely constituted teacher of Revelation. Now, the Scripture is the great depository of the Word of God. Therefore, the Church is the divinely appointed Custodian and Interpreter of the Bible. For, her office of infallible Guide were superfluous if each individual could interpret the Bible for himself...God never intended the Bible to be the Christians' rule of faith independently of the living authority of the Church." (Ibid., p. 77).

    However, the Bible truth says that there are no passages in the Bible which state that Christ made His church the infallible interpreter of His Word. There are none that mention an infallible interpreter and none that hint or remotely imply that Christ wanted one.
     
  14. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I do not argue that point at all. I in fact understood why it was done. But for "ME", over the years I have found that such a volume of information is just impossible to respond to effectively.
     
  15. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    And of course, it was the Catholic Church, via the help of the Holy Spirit, that gave you the Bible we have today!
     
  16. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I understand your premise. Your thinking is not a Catholic one. It is well established that God in His great love and mercy provided a means of salvation which was the blood of His Son. We then must make the choice to believe in that event so that we can be saved.

    Romans 10:9 says..............
    "because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

    That then by your own admission removes child/baby water baptism as a means of salvation because they have NOT chosen/believed in Christ and certainly have not confessed Christ.

    Then as far as Mary being involved in redemption of men, that is solely a Catholic teaching and once again it is not Biblical.

    It does not take much study to realize what God has said in Psalm 117.........
    “Praise the Lord, all nations; laud Him, all peoples, for His loving-kindness is great toward us, and the truth of the Lord is everlasting. Praise the Lord.”

    Psalm 118........
    “Give thanks to the Lord for He is good. For His loving-kindness is everlasting. O let Israel say, ‘His loving-kindness is everlasting.’ O let the house of Aaron say, ‘His loving-kindness is everlasting.’ O let those who fear the Lord say, ‘His loving-kindness is everlasting.’“

    I find it impossible to believe that any RCC believer can not see and understand that The Roman Catholic view of Mary calls into question the compassion, the sympathy, the loving-kindness of God. It places in the people’s minds doubt about God’s care, concern, sympathy, compassion, and interest in their plight.

    Nothing could be further from the truth. The Bible ends in the 22nd chapter of Revelation with John having heard the amazing revelations, and in this particular case from an angel, when he heard, verse 8 of Revelation 22, it says.............
    “I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. And he said to me, ‘Do not do that/ I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren, the prophets, and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.’“

    In another scene in the book of Revelation there is an angel, an everlasting, flying through heaven with an everlasting message, “Worship God. Worship God,” who is to be worshiped as our Redeemer, our Benefactor, our Comforter, our Sympathizer, our Deliverer.

    Never, ever anywhere is there is suggestion of Mary being involved in any what so ever!

    The Catholic view of Mary is that they/you teach that Mary is the Co-Mediatrix. That is, along with Jesus she is the mediator of all graces. She is the channel of all graces.

    I am sure that you remember statements made like this ........
    “Mary is the mother of all graces."
    "Mary is the source of all mercies".
    "No grace is conferred on anyone without her mediation, and intercession, and cooperation."
    "All graces come to us through Mary’s hands."
    "Mary is the direct intercessor with Christ who receives from Christ all graces and dispenses them to us, and therefore our prayers should be directed at Mary.”

    All of that, of course, is lies and deception, and again strikes a blow at the nature of God as one who is loving, kind, compassionate, sympathetic, and caring. It strikes a blow against the mediatorship of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only one we need to go to be taken directly to the Father.

    Mary IS NOT A Co-Redemptrix, as the Roman Catholic Church says, and this was one of John Paul II’s big issues. I quote from him..........
    “Mary participates in our redemption.”

    And, of course, he is borrowing language from Pius XI who said......
    “Mary participates in the redemption achieved by her Son and all graces are granted only through her intercession. She participated with Jesus Christ in the very painful act of redemption.”

    They have Mary in her pain giving up her Son, participating in some form in our redemption so that Christ is not the one mediator, nor is He the one and only Redeemer.

    That theology is exactly the opposite of what the Scriptures actually do say.

    1 Timothy 2:5 ..............
    "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus".

    John 14:13......
    “‘Whatever you ask,’ Jesus said, ‘in My name that will I do that the Father may be glorified in the Son.’“
     
  17. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    They are NOT trying, they have just that.

    John Paul II’s said and I quote from him...............
    “Mary participates in our redemption.”

    If that does not make Mary equal to Jesus, what in your opinion does it then do????

    And, of course, there is Pope Pius XI who said........
    “Mary participates in the redemption achieved by her Son and all graces are granted only through her intercession. She participated with Jesus Christ in the very painful act of redemption.”

    Do you not see and understand that these men who are "Infallible" have Mary in her pain giving up her Son, participating in some form in our redemption so that Christ is not the one mediator, nor is He the one and only Redeemer.

    1 Timothy 2:5 .........
    "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus".

    There is one Mediator and it is the man, Christ Jesus. Not angels, not saints, and not Mary. All our burdens, all our prayers, all our requests go directly to God through our relationship with Jesus Christ.
     
  18. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

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    Major1. You are always bashing Catholic beliefs! Any thread and you dive in to spout your own 'personal, weak, beliefs'. Your posts are like a record stuck in a groove!

    You are a non-denom. In other words, you 'go it alone'. You make up your own ideas, opinions, views etc.

    You interpret how 'YOU' want to see things.

    God bless you my friend
     
  19. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    More accurately, it makes the the Catholic Church superior to Scripture since according to her it only consists of and assuredly means what she says, at least in cases of conflict.

    Note however, that the Scriptures being the supreme authoritative and only wholly inspired substantive source does not mean that the church is not also an authority. But like as the Supreme Court here depends upon the Constitution (Article III, Sec. 1) for authority, and it is thereby given authority to judge according to what the Constitution means, in Scripture the church is given judicial authority to judge disputes, (Matthew 18:15-18) and which binding and loosing flows from the OT (Deuteronomy 17:8-13; Matthew 23:2).

    However, this never presumed, promised or required infallible authority, but itself was subject to Scripture, while the spiritual power of binding and loosing is provided for all believers of Elijah-type holy faith and fervent prayer. (Matthew 18:180-20; James 5:16-18)

    And Scripture testifies that common people could assuredly discern what and who was of God without an infallible magisterium, and sometimes in dissent to those of the magisterium. (Mark 11:27-33)

    Other presumptions you could add to your list would be:

    People cannot discover the contents of revelation by their unaided powers of reason and observation. They have to be told by people who have received in from on high. - Cardinal Avery Dulles, SJ, "Magisterium: Teacher and Guardian of the Faith, p. 72;

    ..no matter what be done the believer cannot believe in the Bible nor find in it the object of his faith until he has previously made an act of faith in the intermediary authorities..." - Catholic Encyclopedia>Tradition and Living Magisterium; CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tradition and Living Magisterium

    —in all cases there is a margin left for the exercise of faith in the word of the Church. He who believes the dogmas of the Church only because he has reasoned them out of History, is scarcely a Catholic......in all cases the immediate motive in the mind of a Catholic for his reception of them is, not that they are proved to him by Reason or by History, but because Revelation has declared them by means of that high ecclesiastical Magisterium which is their legitimate exponent.” — John Henry Newman, “A Letter Addressed to the Duke of Norfolk on Occasion of Mr. Gladstone's Recent Expostulation.” 8. The Vatican Council lhttp://www.newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section8.html

    It was the charge of the Reformers that the Catholic doctrines were not primitive, and their pretension was to revert to antiquity. But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine... I may say in strict truth that the Church has no antiquity....Primitive and modern are predicates, not of truth, but of ourselves...The only Divine evidence to us of what was primitive is the witness and voice of the Church at this hour. — Dr. Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, Archbishop of Westminster, The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: Or Reason and Revelation (New York: J.P. Kenedy & Sons, originally written 1865, reprinted with no date), pp. 227-228.
     
  20. Goatee

    Goatee Jesus, please forgive me, a sinner.

    +3,557
    United Kingdom
    Catholic
    Divorced
    Jesus gave us the Catholic Church who put together the Canon via the Holy Spirit. Jesus thus gave us the Catholic Church to interpret His teachings held within the Bible.
     
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