The Bible is not a Catechetical Book!

[PeaceByJesus]

The CC still stands strong in rough sees. Jesus did say the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. Many have tried to sink it, from within and without.

Sadly, in her self-exaltation in which she has made herself an object of faith, she has become as the gates of Hell for multitudes, and obeying 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 requires one to dissent from it in order to obey God.

The people are fallible. The church is not.

Which is a mere bare bombastic argument by assertion, which may be comforting those who find their security in Rome, but which is cultic devotion to those who hold to the only wholly inspired and substantive body of the word of God, and find its promised salvation.

It may have crumbling walls or roofs but it's foundation is solid and it's cornerstone is Jesus Christ!

The church which the Lord built was done so in dissent from the historical magisterium, and contrary to the RC model for authority, and the inspired record of what it believed does not manifest Catholic distinctives.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

This an excellent example of the dangers of proof texting. One must always know and consider context before deducing the meaning of a statement.

If “I ordered hamburgers” was preceded by the statement “We went to Burger King and…” we can eliminate the possibility that you ordered frozen or uncooked hamburgers as it is well established fact that Burger King does not serve hamburgers in those manners. Because of our understanding of cultural norms, we would consider it highly unlikely that you would order just the patty. Not absolutely 100 percent certain but a very safe assumption. The special toppings are non-essential as none of them would negate the fact that what you ordered was a hamburger.

In the sentence “I ordered hamburgers” even without context we can learn quite a bit. If you emphasize “I ordered hamburgers” Or “I ordered hamburgers” the information content does not change. A person referred to as “I” ordered a sandwich called a “hamburger” and because we have a plethora of other references to hamburgers we know with certainty what a hamburger is and the cultural norm for serving one (cooked not raw or frozen) Because we know what a hamburger is it would be unlikely that the sentence should be read ‘I ordered hamburgers”. Why would you order them to do anything? And why did you expect them obey? Or do you just habitually order inanimate things to do stuff?

There are many passages in the bible that require both contextual and cultural understanding to interpret. Fortunately, both context and culture can be uncovered with a bit of research or by reading scholarly works. Most importantly there is an old protestant saying, “The main things are plain things” meaning that all we need to know about salvation can be clearly understood without extensive study.

God Bless

Jax

Thanks for the illustration that shows an infallible interpreter is not necessary to understand speech, while Rome rarely actually infallibly interprets any particular verses, and has never published an official church commentary on the entire Bible (especially such as we have with Matthew Henry's superb work), leaving Catholics free to wrest texts in seeking to support Cath traditions of men, while her own scholarship overall leans liberal,

Meanwhile, Catholics are faced with the variant interpretations of their church and pope, as Catholics often need to interpret their interpreter.

In everyday speech we can read and or hear speech which uses euphemisms and a host of forms of figurative language, which we can readily understand by recognizing context and genre, with the more familiar we are with such then the more readily we can do so, likewise with Scripture. thanks be to God.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I understand your premise. Your thinking is not a Catholic one. It is well established that God in His great love and mercy provided a means of salvation which was the blood of His Son. We then must make the choice to believe in that event so that we can be saved.

Romans 10:9 says..............
"because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

That then by your own admission removes child/baby water baptism as a means of salvation because they have NOT chosen/believed in Christ and certainly have not confessed Christ.

Then as far as Mary being involved in redemption of men, that is solely a Catholic teaching and once again it is not Biblical.

It does not take much study to realize what God has said in Psalm 117.........
“Praise the Lord, all nations; laud Him, all peoples, for His loving-kindness is great toward us, and the truth of the Lord is everlasting. Praise the Lord.”

Psalm 118........
“Give thanks to the Lord for He is good. For His loving-kindness is everlasting. O let Israel say, ‘His loving-kindness is everlasting.’ O let the house of Aaron say, ‘His loving-kindness is everlasting.’ O let those who fear the Lord say, ‘His loving-kindness is everlasting.’“

I find it impossible to believe that any RCC believer can not see and understand that The Roman Catholic view of Mary calls into question the compassion, the sympathy, the loving-kindness of God. It places in the people’s minds doubt about God’s care, concern, sympathy, compassion, and interest in their plight.

Nothing could be further from the truth. The Bible ends in the 22nd chapter of Revelation with John having heard the amazing revelations, and in this particular case from an angel, when he heard, verse 8 of Revelation 22, it says.............
“I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. And he said to me, ‘Do not do that/ I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren, the prophets, and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.’“

In another scene in the book of Revelation there is an angel, an everlasting, flying through heaven with an everlasting message, “Worship God. Worship God,” who is to be worshiped as our Redeemer, our Benefactor, our Comforter, our Sympathizer, our Deliverer.

Never, ever anywhere is there is suggestion of Mary being involved in any what so ever!

The Catholic view of Mary is that they/you teach that Mary is the Co-Mediatrix. That is, along with Jesus she is the mediator of all graces. She is the channel of all graces.

I am sure that you remember statements made like this ........
“Mary is the mother of all graces."
"Mary is the source of all mercies".
"No grace is conferred on anyone without her mediation, and intercession, and cooperation."
"All graces come to us through Mary’s hands."
"Mary is the direct intercessor with Christ who receives from Christ all graces and dispenses them to us, and therefore our prayers should be directed at Mary.”

All of that, of course, is lies and deception, and again strikes a blow at the nature of God as one who is loving, kind, compassionate, sympathetic, and caring. It strikes a blow against the mediatorship of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only one we need to go to be taken directly to the Father.

Mary IS NOT A Co-Redemptrix, as the Roman Catholic Church says, and this was one of John Paul II’s big issues. I quote from him..........
“Mary participates in our redemption.”

And, of course, he is borrowing language from Pius XI who said......
“Mary participates in the redemption achieved by her Son and all graces are granted only through her intercession. She participated with Jesus Christ in the very painful act of redemption.”

They have Mary in her pain giving up her Son, participating in some form in our redemption so that Christ is not the one mediator, nor is He the one and only Redeemer.

That theology is exactly the opposite of what the Scriptures actually do say.

1 Timothy 2:5 ..............
"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus".

John 14:13......
“‘Whatever you ask,’ Jesus said, ‘in My name that will I do that the Father may be glorified in the Son.’“

Your citation of 1 Timothy 2 is interesting in that the broader context of it involves believers praying for one another. The idea of praying for each other is reaffirmed in other parts of sacred scripture (James 15, for example).

That is a form of mediation. Extrapolating something against Our Lady as any type of mediatrix based on that is rather spurious considering the amount of mediating that's going on. It reduces your point to the level that only Our Lady cannot mediate; seems like everyone else can though. All in all, that seems a bit flimsy.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

They are NOT trying, they have just that.

John Paul II’s said and I quote from him...............
“Mary participates in our redemption.”

Well, uniquely,

she had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin. It was not only during the Passion that Jesus and Mary suffered for our sins, for all their lives that heartrending vision was before them in every detail, and never for a moment forgotten. — The Reign of Mary, Vol. 40; Issue 48

"We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman. Just as Eve was the root of death for everyone, so Mary was the source of life for everyone. — Ten Series of Meditations on the Mystery of the Rosary,” by John Ferraro, Nihil Obstat John C. Hogan, Diocesan Censor; Imprimatur (1) - Richard Cardinal Cushing Daughters of St.Paul, 1964).

According to Eadmer (A.D. 1060–1124), an English monk and student of Anselm, “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus... — Andrew Taylor, “Three medieval manuscripts and their readers,” University of Pennsylvania press; page 173

If that does not make Mary equal to Jesus, what in your opinion does it then do????

Well, almost. Its more like Mormonism Godhood:

Mary could not be more closely united to God without becoming God. - Saint Alphonsus de Liguori, The Glories of Mary, in Little Book of Saints by Christine Barrely; A LITTLE BOOK OF MARY

"At the command of Mary all obey, even God. [St. Bemardine] She is omnipotent, for the queen, according to all laws, enjoys the same privileges as the king [wrong]; and since the son's power also belongs to the mother, this Mother is made omnipotent by an omnipotent Son. - [Richard of St. Lawrence] The glories of Mary, by Alphonsus Liguori THE GLORIES OF MARY

...when she acts, it is also He who acts; and that if her intervention be not accepted, neither is His... - A Marian Synthesis; A Marian Synthesis [bold mine throughout]

Do you not see and understand that these men who are "Infallible" have Mary in her pain giving up her Son, participating in some form in our redemption so that Christ is not the one mediator, nor is He the one and only Redeemer.

The premise is that being an instrument of God's grace in salvation means one is a participant in this work, which is that sense is true, but which is true of any person whom God used. But in Mariolatry, the instrument is though of far above that which is written, contrary to 1 Corinthians 4:6, and the focus and honor is on the instrument, even to making Jesus, by whom Mary had her existence, owing His blood to Mary:
..to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood.. —SMR-98 Mary and the Precious Blood

1 Timothy 2:5 .........
"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus".

But what is done is making Mary the mediator btwn man and Christ. However, the above verse also represents that Christ is the only heavenly mediator ever mentioned between God and men. Nowhere among the over 200 prayers to Heaven in Scripture is anyone prayed to except God. Angels and elders offering up prayers as a memorial in testimony before the final judgments is not making intercession either.

There is one Mediator and it is the man, Christ Jesus. Not angels, not saints, and not Mary. All our burdens, all our prayers, all our requests go directly to God through our relationship with Jesus Christ.

You mean the Holy Spirit forgot about Mary and angels and saints doing so when inspiring writers, even when expressly dealing with heavenly intercession?

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (Hebrews 2:18)

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:15-16)

Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. (Hebrews 10:19-22)

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Your citation of 1 Timothy 2 is interesting in that the broader context of it involves believers praying for one another. The idea of praying for each other is reaffirmed in other parts of sacred scripture (James 15, for example).

That is a form of mediation. Extrapolating something against Our Lady as any type of mediatrix based on that is rather spurious considering the amount of mediating that's going on. It reduces your point to the level that only Our Lady cannot mediate; seems like everyone else can though. All in all, that seems a bit flimsy.

Rather, what is "flimsy" is the foundation for praying to created beings in Heaven, that of reasoning that since Scripture examples verbally or in writing asking for prayer from others here in the earthly realm then this means that mental (or otherwise) requests should be made to created beings in Heaven for such.

Which presumes there exists a near complete correlation of activities btwn those on earth and btwn those of both realms. But that the Holy Spirit did not care to record even though prayer is a most basic practice, and there has always been a host of created beings in Heaven to pray to, and a host of situations in the history of the Bible which would give occasion to such if God willed it.

But instead we have absolutely zero prayers addressed to anyone else in Heaven among the over 200 prayers to Heaven by believers that the Holy Spirit inspired, and who only shows pagans praying/making supplication to anyone else.

Moreover, from what I recall, any communication btwn those on earth and those in Heaven required both to somehow be in the same location, testifying to boundaries, while only God is shown able to hear all prayer from Heaven, which is His throne, not earth.

Likewise flimsy is reasoning that since God may give the power to hear prayer to those in Heaven then this supports praying to them. What God can do, and what created beings might be able to do simply does not translate into praying to them.

 

[Phil 1:21]

And, of course, there is Pope Pius XI who said........
“Mary participates in the redemption achieved by her Son and all graces are granted only through her intercession. She participated with Jesus Christ in the very painful act of redemption.”

I remember way back when the Lord led me to the church I now attend. I was at a meeting where folks were giving testimony of their faith journey. We were asked to state when we came to Christ. I explained that, like probably better than half the people in the room, I was raised in the RCC. A lady at my table asked, "OK, but when did you actually become a Christian?"

At the time I thought her question was a bit insulting. But I'm starting to see where she was coming from.

 

[redleghunter]

And of course, it was the Catholic Church, via the help of the Holy Spirit, that gave you the Bible we have today!

Irenaeus thought different. He believed the apostles gave us the Holy Scriptures of the NT. This was long before anyone claimed 'to give us the scriptures.'

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. (Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 1)

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.1 (St. Irenaeus)

Therefore, the church gave us the scriptures is akin to Isaac Newton giving us gravity. I think gravity already existed before Newton 'discovered it.'

 

[W2L]

God gave me His word.

 

[thecolorsblend]

Rather, what is "flimsy" is the foundation for praying to created beings in Heaven, that of reasoning that since Scripture examples verbally or in writing asking for prayer from others here in the earthly realm then this means that mental (or otherwise) requests should be made to created beings in Heaven for such.

Which presumes there exists a near complete correlation of activities btwn those on earth and btwn those of both realms. But that the Holy Spirit did not care to record even though prayer is a most basic practice, and there has always been a host of created beings in Heaven to pray to, and a host of situations in the history of the Bible which would give occasion to such if God willed it.

But instead we have absolutely zero prayers addressed to anyone else in Heaven among the over 200 prayers to Heaven by believers that the Holy Spirit inspired, and who only shows pagans praying/making supplication to anyone else.

Moreover, from what I recall, any communication btwn those on earth and those in Heaven required both to somehow be in the same location, testifying to boundaries, while only God is shown able to hear all prayer from Heaven, which is His throne, not earth.

Likewise flimsy is reasoning that since God may give the power to hear prayer to those in Heaven then this supports praying to them. What God can do, and what created beings might be able to do simply does not translate into praying to them.

On the contrary, as you acknowledge scripture permits -- even encourages -- the faithful to pray for each other. There's no real reason that I can see that the dead cannot pray for us since they're even more alive than we are.

Arguing from silence that the communion of the saints doesn't exist is, with respect, a flimsy argument in my view.

 

[W2L]

The scribes and pharisees gave us the scriptures, but i wont be following them, or the Pope.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

I remember way back when the Lord led me to the church I now attend. I was at a meeting where folks were giving testimony of their faith journey. We were asked to state when we came to Christ. I explained that, like probably better than half the people in the room, I was raised in the RCC. A lady at my table asked, "OK, but when did you actually become a Christian?"

At the time I thought her question was a bit insulting. But I'm starting to see where she was coming from.

That happened to me while being a weekly mass-going Catholic after being away for many years, by tearful repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus to save me on His account, not my merits, and resulted in basic profound changes in heart and life, including an earnest desire to know how to please God according to Scripture, which hunger evangelical radio helped to fill.

I remained as a weekly mass-going Catholic for about 6 years, increasingly seeing the contrary btwn Catholicism and the NT church, seeking to serve God finally meant sincerely asking God is He would have me go to another church, which prayer He quickly manifestly and answered and led me into evangelicalism, thanks be to God.

 

[redleghunter]

Major1. You are always bashing Catholic beliefs! Any thread and you dive in to spout your own 'personal, weak, beliefs'. Your posts are like a record stuck in a groove!

You are a non-denom. In other words, you 'go it alone'. You make up your own ideas, opinions, views etc.

You interpret how 'YOU' want to see things.

God bless you my friend

Goatee, in fairness to @Major1 he is not bashing anyone or any religion. He is actually debating points. What you post above is actually what you accuse him of.

Debating assertions or arguments of others is not bashing. The OP is actually a huge assertion begging an argument in return.

Knowing the difference between an assertion and an argument is key to any good discussion or debate. Sometimes assertions need to be addressed for what they are....statements without evidence.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

On the contrary, as you acknowledge scripture permits -- even encourages -- the faithful to pray for each other. There's no real reason that I can see that the dead cannot pray for us since they're even more alive than we are.

What? The issue is not even whether departed believers can prayer for is, but whether they are to be heavenly objects of prayer for believers on earth.

Arguing from silence that the communion of the saints doesn't exist is, with respect, a flimsy argument in my view.

You mean that since Scripture nowhere sanctions or encourages the faithful to pray to created beings in Heaven anymore than it does to wash their feet, despite providing over 200 prayers to Heaven means that it is Scriptural to pray to them?

When Scripture speaks so abundantly on a basic practice as prayer but does only shows God being addressed and manifests a division btwn realms, and only providing a negative example of praying to someone else in Heaven but God, then you have no right to presume that is sanctioned by believers.

You simply impugn the character of the Holy Spirit in presuming that He would leave you Catholic practice out of Scripture, in failing to provide one true example of believers praying to someones else in Heaven, while instructing them to address God.

 

[Goatee]

Irenaeus thought different. He believed the apostles gave us the Holy Scriptures of the NT. This was long before anyone claimed 'to give us the scriptures.'

We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. (Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 1)

CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.1 (St. Irenaeus)

Therefore, the church gave us the scriptures is akin to Isaac Newton giving us gravity. I think gravity already existed before Newton 'discovered it.'

And, the Apostles were sent forth by Jesus, who, made Peter the head of the church on earth! Peter, 'The Rock'. Peter, given the keys to bind or loose. So, through Sacred Tradition, the Canon was formed!

 

[Goatee]

The scribes and pharisees gave us the scriptures, but i wont be following them, or the Pope.

As Jesus said, they were more concerned with the past. Jesus brought in the New covenant. And with it the Apostles, who, through Sacred Tradition, have handed down their teachings through the Catholic Church with the Holy Spirit guiding it.

 

[redleghunter]

You mean that since Scripture nowhere sanctions or encourages the faithful to pray to created beings in Heaven anymore than it does to wash their feet, despite providing over 200 prayers to Heaven means that it is Scriptural to pray to them?

We cannot find one prayer from Joshua nor the other judges invoking Moses to pray for them. You would think such a figure of a godly man as Moses we would see some psalm or prayer for Moses to intercede after his death.

Yet the practice was to lay hands on the next leader (Numbers 27:18) and in the case of Elisha he took the mantle of Elijah (2 Kings 2:14). No prayers offered for intercession to these of the two most holy of men in the OT.

 

[Goatee]

Goatee, in fairness to @Major1 he is not bashing anyone or any religion. He is actually debating points. What you post above is actually what you accuse him of.

Debating assertions or arguments of others is not bashing. The OP is actually a huge assertion begging an argument in return.

Knowing the difference between an assertion and an argument is key to any good discussion or debate. Sometimes assertions need to be addressed for what they are....statements without evidence.

I disagree my dear friend...

 

[redleghunter]

And, the Apostles were sent forth by Jesus, who, made Peter the head of the church on earth! Peter, 'The Rock'. Peter, given the keys to bind or loose. So, through Sacred Tradition, the Canon was formed!

Which completely ignores what I presented.

 

[Goatee]

Which completely ignores what I presented.

But tells you the true facts!

 

[W2L]

[/QUOTE]

As Jesus said, they were more concerned with the past. Jesus brought in the New covenant. And with it the Apostles, who, through Sacred Tradition, have handed down their teachings through the Catholic Church with the Holy Spirit guiding it.

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.

James 3:18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

1 Corinthians 13:5 ...love does not seek its own,

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.