Status
Not open for further replies.

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Not possible to do so. Nor is it possible for your group either.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? 2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.​

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​

Put those 2 passages together and you will see WHY it is impossible. Jews are NOT in the mix as far as interpreting scripture for either the Catholics or the Protestants. (or the Orthodox for that matter) God gave that job to the Jews and does not take it back.
So you think that Our Lord commanded unity based on sacred scripture... and then made it impossible to unify based on scripture?

All at once I can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. :D
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
So you think that Our Lord commanded unity based on sacred scripture... and then made it impossible to unify based on scripture?
"Commanded unity:" yes

"Based on scripture" - in a way. Scripture is open to interpretation; (as anyone who looks at protestantaism can easily see) so WHOSE interpretation is the right one? That is where I submit the Jews' calling as being the stewards of the "oracles of God" comes into play.

Not impossible; just impossible without New Covenant believing Jews.
 
Upvote 0

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
"Commanded unity:" yes

"Based on scripture" - in a way. Scripture is open to interpretation; (as anyone who looks at protestantaism can easily see) so WHOSE interpretation is the right one? That is where I submit the Jews' calling as being the stewards of the "oracles of God" comes into play.

Not impossible; just impossible without New Covenant believing Jews.
I'm sure you're not surprised that I disagree there. And that's one thing that I like about the Catholic Church: the issue of authority is settled.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
When anyone posts so much information at one time, they are saying.........
"here, I am going to hit you over the head with so much stuff that you can not respond so then I must be right".

If you would like to shorten your comment so we could assimilate it, I would be glad to respond to you.
Frankly that post had to be long to properly address each straw man which was presented.
 
Upvote 0

wilts43

Newbie
May 22, 2011
236
79
✟21,547.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Like I said, we can discuss the heresy of works-based salvation another time. Let's not derail one heresy with another. Now then...

If you honestly believe that God's plan for salvation hinged on the cooperation of Mary -- that she could stop His plan -- then you do not believe in a sovereign God. And yes, that is an either/or.

Isaiah 42:8 “I am the Lord; that is my name! I will not yield my glory to another or my praise to idols.” (or with Mary and the saints)

Psalm 115:3 “Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.”

Proverbs 16:9 “The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.”

Is this sovereign God unable to create free beings and even place himself at their mercy (As indeed He also did at His Crucifixion)?

The Protestant impulse was always to lower man (imputed grace) and raise God.....increasing the gulf betwixt.
The Catholic impulse is incarnational, of God's bridging this gulf, of a God who humbles himself so radically, beyond all our crude human understandings of what a powerful God should be or do.

A God who (only with a maiden's permission) takes the gift of flesh from her, resides in her as his Holy Ark, lives under her subjection, and commences His mission at Cana (though "my hour has not come") at her intercession.

Your almighty sovereign God can, by very virtue of His sovereignty, empty Himself and subject Himself to all manner of what we would baulk at. (both/and)
Again you fell into EITHER/OR Protestant thinking!

This time it was......."EITHER God is sovereign, OR he can humble himself to be subject unto a human."

This is the repetitive chord of Protestant objections/heresies to historic (Catholic/Orthodox Christianity).
Stop raising these false dichotomies........It's both/and
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Phil 1:21

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2017
5,869
4,399
United States
✟144,842.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Is this sovereign God unable to create free beings and even place himself at their mercy (As indeed He also did at His Crucifixion)?

God can do anything He wants, including work out His redemption with or without a Jewish virgin.

It's interesting that you mentioned the crucifixion though. Do you believe Judas Iscariot, Caiaphas, Pontius Pilate, and the executioners are also co-redeemers? Should the RCC "venerate" them like like they do Mary--statues, incense, prayers and whatnot?
 
Upvote 0

wilts43

Newbie
May 22, 2011
236
79
✟21,547.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
God can do anything He wants, including work out His redemption with or without a Jewish virgin.

But He chose to do it with the consent of a Jewish maiden.
Respect His choice.
Deal with that.
Deal with His mother.

Mother of the Son
Bride of The Holy Spirit
Ark of The New Covenant
Second Eve......mother of all the redeemed
Mother of The Church

See my post 144
 
Upvote 0

wilts43

Newbie
May 22, 2011
236
79
✟21,547.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Do you believe Judas Iscariot, Caiaphas, Pontius Pilate, and the executioners are also co-redeemers? Should the RCC "venerate" them like like they do Mary--statues, incense, prayers and whatnot?

Have you understood at all what co-redemptrix means?

Why you compare Mary, the Holy Ark of the New and everlasting Covenant, fashioned by God to be His own earthly mother, taken as His bride by The Holy Spirit (He doesn't do Rape, One-night-stands or divorce) with those who betrayed him boggles the mind.

read post 144 follow the links and open your mind to typology which is scriptural
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Oh come on........ You think this represents the protestant arguments? No wonder you're a confused Catholic!

First, let's deal head on with the fact that Catholics ignore scripture in order to apply "sola ecclesia" with a twist of misunderstanding of sola scripture thrown in.

The bible makes this absolutely clear and plain....

"For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart."

...hmm there's a verse Catholics don't like to use....with those horrible little words "alive and active".

I'm yet to find a Catholic who can explain why "apostolic succession" or church authority is necessary when God Himself tells us His word is "alive and active"? Moreover, just to make sure we didn't get this wrong, God says ""This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

Now if you want to be pedantic about "sola scripture" meaning that scripture is the sole infallible rule of faith and practice then you misunderstand protestantism either through ignorance or deceit. Irrespective such a literal application actually is an oxymoron because the very scriptures tell us that we cannot find truth without the Holy Spirit.... even Catholics accept that it is the HOLY SPIRIT that leads into truth.. they just claim He only leads their priests (note not in the bible!)

So the spiritual application of sola scriptura is that the scriptures are the ONLY physical definitive infallible source of truth but that is God Himself who opens the truths within those scriptures to whom He wills.

Naturally at this point Catholics like to jump on the argument of many minds / many doctrines as if this defeats the truth in it. The fact that some listen and obey the "living and active" word and some say they do but don't doesn't change anything.

The idea that there MUST be definitive doctrine is a Catholic invention not born out by the evidence of Christian or Jewish history (even Catholicism) nor by the bible examples we are given. Ironically enough even when God's word was not living and active and we had no personal relationship (because His rules were written in stone), men argued as to the application, interpretation and meaning of scriptures. Only fools would ignore this reality and claim it's different now!

Secondly, Catholics often take scripture then claim secret understanding which in effect negates or undermines the scripture. A good example here is in this kind of debate Catholics try to claim UNITY as a sign of Christs church. To do so they rely almost exclusively on " I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one" and claim this is PROMISE or PROPHECY. It's quite plainly nothing of the sort. It's a prayer by Christ to His Father... a request. Nothing more nothing less. Claiming it's more in order to gain authority is at best ridiculous and at worst blasphemy. Furthermore Christ ask the Father for things in His life and were not granted ("Take this cup from me..")

This is a great example of confused Catholicism or shall we say "sola ecclessia" where the church applies it's ultimate authority to contradict the "living and active" word. There are MANY others.

Thirdly, the idea that without the church Christianity is nothing less than usurping the authority of God. God does not need the church. The church needs God and that's a problem for Catholics since in their view the church is an organisation with authority and power. The brutal reality is that the ONLY example of church the bible gives is off people collectively operating as "church"..not a formal organisation (note the major differences and squabbling in the bible). This is where Catholics try to ride two horses and get caught in the middle!

On the one hand they say that God has protected the purity and truth of His word through the bishops that represent His church but in doing so they have to admit that such bishops and Pope's lost their freewill to operate as sinfilled men (at least in some measure). Not only is this not biblical (no instruction, definition or examples of it but many to the contrary) but that it flies in the face of the obvious reality that through many parts of Catholic history the very men who righteously protected the truth of God were flagerantly disobeying it's instruction. It's astounding !


Fourthly, Catholic doctrine and biblie interpretation has flip and flopped in some areas, evolve in other areas and be conspicious by absence in others. If God and indeed God's people are totally reliant on the authority of the church then God and His people are in trouble! Frankly, Catholicism is full of "make it up as we go" theology which is even examplified in the original posting... 2 Timothy 3:16-17, clearly says that scripture is sufficient! Materially sufficient, not formally sufficient. Huh? It's accepted that scripture is sufficient but sufficiency is divided into material and formal! Come on you're making that up! It's not in the bible and certainly wasn't taught by the apostles! Sufficient is sufficient. The key word key is "aritos" as in made perfect. The bible is clearly saying that men can be made PERFECT through God's word... not through the church, a priest, a bishop or even a Pope... through HIS word.

I've written enough........
The age old battle of eisegesis vs exegesis. I agree.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Phil 1:21

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2017
5,869
4,399
United States
✟144,842.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Have you understood at all what co-redemptrix means?

Of course. You spelled it out plainly already...

"Co-Redemptrix" means Mary Co-operated....with God's plan for Redemption. That in no way makes her equal.

You brought up the crucifixion, which was part of God's plan for redemption. Remember, it was actually prophesied in the OT. So...does Pilate get's a rosary? Yes or no?
 
Upvote 0

jax5434

Member
Nov 27, 2007
630
245
✟31,157.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
But what the New Testament is in itself (Ie the books included) comes from Catholic Tradition.
It comes from the authority of the Catholic Bishops in Councils, as divinely guaranteed shepherds, to discern infallibly what is (& what wasn't) "canonical scripture".
Luther took out books from the OT 1300 years later, and he wanted to remove James from the NT, but wiser councils prevailed.
Since the Table-of-Contents is not in the Bible, but is a list discerned by Catholic Councils.........is it infallible?
It is not consistent to accept The Catholic Church as infallible in interpreting infallibly what should be in The Bible but not infallible in interpreting it!
If you don't accept Christ's creation, His Church, as infallible to discern what is the word of God (& interpret it) you are left with (at best) What R.C. Sproul considered to be “a fallible collection of infallible books.” Which means you have no certain ground at all.

That the Catholic Church as "tradition" precedes the canon is historical fact.
That the Catholic Church as "tradition" decided the canon on its authority is historical fact.
The tradition (and the living organic fact) of The Church, is wider & deeper than scripture. Scripture is "The Family History Library" of The Catholic Church.
So scripture is "normative & formative" and is not contradicted by the Church which decides scripture & interprets it.
And scripture itself tells you this.

John 21:25 "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

In Acts 20:35 it says "Lord Jesus himself said: 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'" If you look in the Gospels, you will not see this phrase. So the apostle obviously received this orally, by someone who knew Jesus and quotes from this tradition.

The New Testament is plainly not written as a Church-Creating-Manual....but that is how many Protestant reformers have treated it since 17th Century of Christianity, especially in America.
The Epistles make far more sense as happenstantial survivals of letters from authority to deal with local problems.
This structure, authority & oral tradition come directly from Judaism.....which Christianity is.
You will understand this far more if you realise The Catholic Church (Kingdom-of-God) is "Judaism-fulfilled" not a new religion. Jesus "came to fulfil theLaw not to abolish it"
It is Jewish.....The Apostles didn't need to say this. They just got on doing things the Jewish way and The Jews had The Torah, Law & Prophets scriptures but also the oral Talmud/Mishnah.
And in the times of The Davidic Kings there was a Royal Steward to rule as the King's deputy. Jesus as the Davidic Messiah-King deliberately reinstitutes this (See & Compare Matt16:18 & Is 22:20-23)

But what the New Testament is in itself (Ie the books included) comes from Catholic Tradition.

It comes from the authority of the Catholic Bishops in Councils, as divinely guaranteed shepherds, to discern infallibly what is (& what wasn't) "canonical scripture".

Luther took out books from the OT 1300 years later, and he wanted to remove James from the NT, but wiser councils prevailed.

Since the Table-of-Contents is not in the Bible, but is a list discerned by Catholic Councils.........is it infallible?

It is not consistent to accept The Catholic Church as infallible in interpreting infallibly what should be in The Bible but not infallible in interpreting it!

If you don't accept Christ's creation, His Church, as infallible to discern what is the word of God (& interpret it) you are left with (at best) What R.C. Sproul considered to be “a fallible collection of infallible books.” Which means you have no certain ground at all.

A lot to unpack here.

First of all the catholic (universal) tradition of the New Testament Apostolic era is not the same as the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church at its earliest can trace its origins to Constantine circa 313 and some would say even later than that. It was not until 538 AD that the Emperor Justinian decreed the preeminence of the Church at Rome.

Prior to 538ad the councils you cite were Christian Councils not Roman Catholic ones.
What you call consistent many would call arrogant. Particulary since there were no Roman Catholic Councils prior to 538 AD.

What I do not accept, for reasons of history, is that the Roman Catholic Church is Christs creation. Scripture promises believers that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all understanding. So I do in fact have extremely certain ground.



That the Catholic Church as "tradition" precedes the canon is historical fact.

Catholic as in Universal yes. Not as in Roman Catholic.

That the Catholic Church as "tradition" decided the canon on its authority is historical fact.

Catholic as in Universal Christian yes. As in Roman Catholic no

The tradition (and the living organic fact) of The Church, is wider & deeper than scripture. Scripture is "The FamilyHistory Library" of The Catholic Church.

Again do not confuse Roman Catholic with the early Univeral Church

So scripture is "normative & formative" and is not contradicted by the Church which decides scripture & interprets it.

Scripture was decided by the Holy Spirit and it is He that interprets it.

And scripture itself tells you this.


John 21:25 "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."



In Acts 20:35 it says "Lord Jesus himself said: 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'" If you look in the Gospels, you will not see this phrase. So the apostle obviously received this orally, by someone who knew Jesus and quotes from this tradition.

Outside of Roman Catholic Tradition what evidence do you have that these verses apply to the Roman Catholic Church only?


The New Testament is plainly not written as a Church-Creating-Manual....but that is how many Protestant reformers have treated it since 17th Century of Christianity, especially in America.

You’re correct on this. Jesus did not come to establish a church (not even yours). The documents are historical documents and the epistles deal with issues of the faith that Jesus did bring to us all.

The Epistles make far more sense as happenstantial survivals of letters from authority to deal with local problems.

I doubt God does anything by happenstance.

This structure, authority & oral tradition come directly from Judaism.....which Christianity is.

No. Christianity certainly has its roots in Judaism but is not equivalent to it. Out of curiosity what Christian oral traditions are you referring to?



You will understand this far more if you realise The Catholic Church (Kingdom-of-God) is "Judaism-fulfilled" not a new religion. Jesus "came to fulfil theLaw not to abolish it"


I understand the relationship of the New Testament Church to Judaism. Once again you are confusing Roman Catholic with catholic as in all believers.

It is Jewish.....The Apostles didn't need to say this. They just got on doing things the Jewish way and The Jews had The Torah, Law & Prophets scriptures but also the oral Talmud/Mishnah.

You will understand this far more if you read the Book of Romans.

And in the times of The Davidic Kings there was a Royal Steward to rule as the King's deputy. Jesus as the Davidic Messiah-King deliberately reinstitutes this (See & Compare Matt16:18 & Is 22:20-23)

But it is only Roman Catholic Tradition that in hindsight applies these verses to itself.

God Bless

Jax
 
Upvote 0

wilts43

Newbie
May 22, 2011
236
79
✟21,547.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Of course. You spelled it out plainly already...
You brought up the crucifixion, which was part of God's plan for redemption. Remember, it was actually prophesied in the OT. So...does Pilate get's a rosary? Yes or no?

No!
Mary co-operated perfectly & sinlessly with God's will, & by His grace.

Those who sin, (Pilate, Judas etc. whom you cite, do so against God's will & rejecting His grace).....even if God has foreseen (& prophesised)their free choices.
His gracious radical intervention (through Mary) is to turn around the effects of their free choices.

It seem disingenuous to play such games equating these.

----------------------------------------------

So I gave you your "Yes or No" answer

Now please do me the same courtesy re. Post 169
 
Upvote 0

Phil 1:21

Well-Known Member
Apr 3, 2017
5,869
4,399
United States
✟144,842.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No!
Mary co-operated perfectly & sinlessly with God's will, & by His grace.

Those who sin, (Pilate, Judas etc. whom you cite, do so against God's will & rejecting His grace).....even if God has foreseen (& prophesised)their free choices.
His gracious radical intervention (through Mary) is to turn around the effects of their free choices.

It seem disingenuous to play such games equating these.

So your previous definition wasn't complete? Is this one, or should we hold off a bit for version 3.0? Perhaps you could help us out a bit by providing a comprehensive list of co-redeemers and co-redemprixes (or is it co-redemptrixi?).

Or maybe you could just let us know who's kingdom you think is best served by focusing attention away from the Creator and onto the creation...
 
  • Like
Reactions: redleghunter
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

wilts43

Newbie
May 22, 2011
236
79
✟21,547.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
But what the New Testament is in itself (Ie the books included) comes from Catholic Tradition.

It comes from the authority of the Catholic Bishops in Councils, as divinely guaranteed shepherds, to discern infallibly what is (& what wasn't) "canonical scripture".

Luther took out books from the OT 1300 years later, and he wanted to remove James from the NT, but wiser councils prevailed.

Since the Table-of-Contents is not in the Bible, but is a list discerned by Catholic Councils.........is it infallible?

It is not consistent to accept The Catholic Church as infallible in interpreting infallibly what should be in The Bible but not infallible in interpreting it!

If you don't accept Christ's creation, His Church, as infallible to discern what is the word of God (& interpret it) you are left with (at best) What R.C. Sproul considered to be “a fallible collection of infallible books.” Which means you have no certain ground at all.

A lot to unpack here.

First of all the catholic (universal) tradition of the New Testament Apostolic era is not the same as the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church at its earliest can trace its origins to Constantine circa 313 and some would say even later than that. It was not until 538 AD that the Emperor Justinian decreed the preeminence of the Church at Rome.

.

What I do not accept, for reasons of history, is that the Roman Catholic Church is Christs creation. Scripture promises believers that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all understanding. So I do in fact have extremely certain ground.

Jax

The Catholic Church & what you call The Roman Catholic Church are the same.
There is no historical hiatus.
Your date of 313AD for the RCC precedes the fixing of the Canon of scriopture by Catholic bishops (sent to the pope for approval) by a hundred years.
So if the Church that discerned the canon was apostate, it's not much good as a "Bible" is it.
Your need to disect Catholic from (Roman) Catholic is from hindsight. A Protestant necessity, with no clear historical basis, and dating anywhere from The Apostles to Constantine depending on the yarnspinner's imagination & historical knowledge.
It just didn't happen.
Christ's Church evolved (As in The Mustard seed Parable) first recorded use of "Catholic" around 100AD

You also said.........

" Prior to 538ad the councils you cite were Christian Councils not Roman Catholic ones."

But to be Christian equalled Catholic at that time. And they were councils of Catholic bishops.
There is no point when this Catholic Church, teaching Catholic doctrine separated from, or was changed into, a different thing called The "Roman" Catholic Church.
A Universal Church requires an earthly focus of unity, a touchstone of truth & authority, A Davidic-Steward, and it became clear very early that that was part of the Petrine ministry (St Ambrose "Where Peter is: there is the Church")

The Petrine Ministry was usually located in Rome (but it has been at Avignon)
 
Upvote 0

wilts43

Newbie
May 22, 2011
236
79
✟21,547.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
What I do not accept, for reasons of history, is that the Roman Catholic Church is Christs creation. Scripture promises believers that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all understanding. So I do in fact have extremely certain ground.Jax

No, being led into all truth is not guaranteed to all believers,...... that was promised to the Apostles at the last supper discourse in John.

Jesus did not share everything with all his follower & believers as you must know.
His Apostles (& their successors) are led into all truth (Like The Assumption & The Immaculate Conception)
There, you see, in Catholicism the development of hard doctrine over time.

And if your "Democracy of Truth" were true, why are there 45,000 protestant denominations?
You've all got Bibles; you all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit; You're all sincere......
So; Is the Holy Spirit confused?
Or; Is there something wrong with that picture?
-------------------------------------------------------

You said also that "Christ didn't intend to found a Church"

"Didn't intend to start a Church"?

Matthe 16:18
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,b]">[b] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hadesc]">[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will bed]">[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will bee]">[e] loosed in heaven.”

Christ actually says those words here, & plainly re-establishes the Davidic-Kings-Steward/Prime-Minister role (See Is 22:20-23)
He also promises it will never fail......and it hasn't
 
Upvote 0

jax5434

Member
Nov 27, 2007
630
245
✟31,157.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
The Catholic Church & what you call The Roman Catholic Church are the same.
There is no historical hiatus.
Your date of 313AD for the RCC precedes the fixing of the Canon of scriopture by Catholic bishops (sent to the pope for approval) by a hundred years.
So if the Church that discerned the canon was apostate, it's not much good as a "Bible" is it.
Your need to disect Catholic from (Roman) Catholic is from hindsight. A Protestant necessity, with no clear historical basis, and dating anywhere from The Apostles to Constantine depending on the yarnspinner's imagination & historical knowledge.
It just didn't happen.
Christ's Church evolved (As in The Mustard seed Parable) first recorded use of "Catholic" around 100AD

You also said.........

" Prior to 538ad the councils you cite were Christian Councils not Roman Catholic ones."

But to be Christian equalled Catholic at that time. And they were councils of Catholic bishops.
There is no point when this Catholic Church, teaching Catholic doctrine separated from, or was changed into, a different thing called The "Roman" Catholic Church.
A Universal Church requires an earthly focus of unity, a touchstone of truth & authority, A Davidic-Steward, and it became clear very early that that was part of the Petrine ministry (St Ambrose "Where Peter is: there is the Church")

The Petrine Ministry was usually located in Rome (but it has been at Avignon)

This is where we will have to agree to disagree I guess. You are offering a tautology. "The Roman Catholic Church is the one true church because Roman Catholic Tradition says the Roman Catholic Church is the one true church.
Again The Roman Catholic Church was established by a decree of the Emperor Justinian in 538 AD. It is not the same church as universal Christian church of the New Testament.

The claims that the Roman Catholic Church traces its history back to Peter can only be found in retrospect.
In retrospect I could trace all Baptist churches back to John the Baptist and claim that not only are we the one true church but we actually pre-date the messiah.
Sounds foolish doesn't it? But there is as much historical evidence of that as there is that Peter was the first pope of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Earthly focus of the universal Christian Church is Jesus the Messiah. It is not found in any particular place or in any particular person.

I suspect that we will not be able to move past this "is to-is not" phase. And I am not fond of arguing ad nauseam. But let me be clear, what we disagree on is not essential to salvation. I have no doubt there are many fine Christians in the Catholic Church just as there are in the protestant denominations.
God Bless
Jax
 
Upvote 0

jax5434

Member
Nov 27, 2007
630
245
✟31,157.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
No, being led into all truth is not guaranteed to all believers,...... that was promised to the Apostles at the last supper discourse in John.

Jesus did not share everything with all his follower & believers as you must know.
His Apostles (& their successors) are led into all truth (Like The Assumption & The Immaculate Conception)
There, you see, in Catholicism the development of hard doctrine over time.

And if your "Democracy of Truth" were true, why are there 45,000 protestant denominations?
You've all got Bibles; you all claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit; You're all sincere......
So; Is the Holy Spirit confused?
Or; Is there something wrong with that picture?
-------------------------------------------------------

You said also that "Christ didn't intend to found a Church"

"Didn't intend to start a Church"?

Matthe 16:18
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter,b]">[b] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hadesc]">[c] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will bed]">[d] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will bee]">[e] loosed in heaven.”

Christ actually says those words here, & plainly re-establishes the Davidic-Kings-Steward/Prime-Minister role (See Is 22:20-23)
He also promises it will never fail......and it hasn't

All you are offering is the Roman Catholic dogma you have been taught. It was established long ago that protestants do not accept that dogma as true. If you would like the last word it is yours.
God Bless
Jax
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

thecolorsblend

If God is your Father, who is your Mother?
Site Supporter
Jul 1, 2013
9,199
8,425
Gotham City, New Jersey
✟308,231.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
First of all the catholic (universal) tradition of the New Testament Apostolic era is not the same as the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church at its earliest can trace its origins to Constantine circa 313 and some would say even later than that. It was not until 538 AD that the Emperor Justinian decreed the preeminence of the Church at Rome.
Hmm.

"Therefore shall you write two little books and send one to Clement (of Rome) and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty."
- Hermas, The Shepherd 2:4:3 (A.D. 80)

"Ignatius... to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father"
- St. Ignatius, Letter to the Romans (A.D. 110)

"You (the church at Rome) have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force."
- Ibid.

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul -- that church which has the tradition and the faith with which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. For with this Church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world. And it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition."
- Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:3:1 (A.D. 189)

"Was anything withheld from the knowledge of Peter, who is called 'the rock on which the Church would be built' with the power of 'loosing and binding in heaven and on earth'?"
- Tertullian, Demurrer Against the Heretics 22 (A.D. 200)

"Look at [Peter], the great foundation of the Church, that most solid of rocks, upon whom Christ built the Church."
- Origen, Homilies on Exodus 5:4 (A.D. 248)

At the very least, these writings indicate a pattern of normative thought prevalent in ancient Christianity. Specifically, these guys (and others) all seemed to think there was something unique about St. Peter, his successors as bishop of Rome and the See of Rome itself.

If the above writings are assumed to be errors... well, when exactly did the error creep in? St. Ignatius very probably was a student of St. John the apostle and so you'd think he of all people would have a pretty good bead on the faith.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.