The belief of "Sinless Perfection"

[freeindeed2]

There are many who 'say' they have accepted Christ or many who 'claim' they follow Christ and give 'lip service' of how they love Christ, but really do not really have any relationship with Christ or follow what Christ asks of them:

1. Matthew 19:17
   And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
2. John 14:15
   If ye love me, keep my commandments.
   John 14:14-16 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter)
3. John 14:21
   He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
   John 14:20-22 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter)
4. Matthew 19:21
   Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

God will be the final judge of who truly has listened to Christ and followed his words:

47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.John 12:47=50

This still is not addressing the fact that we HAVE BEEN sanctified in/by Christ. Also, if indeed the writers were referring to the law from Sinai and not the teachings of Christ (entole), then you run into serious problems (because we still break it!).

 

[StormyOne]

I can appreciate what you are saying. I can admire God's handiwork in the beauty of another woman just as I can a beautiful flower. However, we both know that is not what I was talking about don't we? There is a big difference between a man looking at a woman innocently as he admires her beauty and a "man looking" at a woman to lust after her. Unless you are the world's most forgiving husband you would not allow your wife to go and have an adulterous affair each day of your married life just as she wouldn't allow you to.

Just as adultery is marrital impurity and takes a conscious decision to take part in so sin is spiritual impurity and also involves a conscious decision to take part in. We cannot be focused on a relationship with Christ and still sin with impunity. That would be like hugging and kissing your wife as you think about the little black book in your pocket and the women you will be with later after you leave your wife. Thats a fake love for her and it's a fake love for Christ as well. In the Bible it says it very well when the Lord says you can't serve God and mammon. It's one or the other.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jim grown people do what they choose to do, if my wife chose to have affairs daily there would be nothing I could do to stop her. I could choose to accept or not to accept her decisions, but allow or not allow? Please, we are talking grown folks, not children....

As for your other issue, I would concur that we cannot be in relationship and allow distractions to interfere with that relationship...

 

[Jimlarmore]

Jim grown people do what they choose to do, if my wife chose to have affairs daily there would be nothing I could do to stop her. I could choose to accept or not to accept her decisions, but allow or not allow? Please, we are talking grown folks, not children....

When I say you wouldn't allow it I didn't mean you would physically stop her from doing it. I meant it would be something you most likely wouldn't tolerate. Adultery is one of the things Christ said was a basis to divorce a woman over. I think everyone knew what I meant here. Why take this discussion down a side road like this to divert the issue?

As for your other issue, I would concur that we cannot be in relationship and allow distractions to interfere with that relationship...

Thankyou!!!

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Nothing novel here but the Bible certainly speaks of God's church as His bride. When you think of our walk with the Lord as a relational experience that is compared to marriage we can get a good perspective on what sinless perfection is all about.

I'm sure many of us are married so this will make sense. Think about the relationship you have with your spouse. Don't you expect sinless perfection from him/her when it comes to being totally devoted to you?

What an amazing turn in the conversation. Now not only is the fictional sinless perfection treated as a fact which will occur but it is assumed that sinless perfection has been the norm in Christianity. Because Christians have always been the bride of Christ and a relationship with God must equal sinless perfection.

Who expects sinless perfection of their spouse. Do you still expect that after 20 years of marriage. I sure don't, to expect such a thing is set yourself up for failure which is the problem with sinless perfectionism it sets people up for failure as they realize they have not attained and yet they have people like some here saying that you must have it to have a relationship with God. If you aren't totally surrender to God 100% of the time you are not in a relationship with God. Then you can't get away from this whole thing being works related no matter how much you say it is sinless perfection produced by God. Because the problem is me, I don't give myself over to God 100% all the time because if I did then God would make me sinlessly perfect. So I am the problem and when I can give my will over to God completely then and only then do I have salvation otherwise if I die before that mastery over my will then I will not be saved because I am still in sin and sin cannot be in the presence of God.

I am sorry for you guys but this is not a message from God and if you think that is what the Spirit of Prophecy of God has said you have destroyed the gospel. Tear those old hymns out of the hymnal "Just as I am" and "Amazing Grace". If you can't be honest with yourselves how will you ever be honest with God. You can't answer direct questions and some of you retreat to arguments of silence such as "how do you know that the disciples were not sinlessly perfect". Logically worthless arguments like "how do you know Jesus did not go to Tibet and study under the spiritual masters". Such statements when the guy who wrote the most of the the New Testament clearly says he does what he knows he should not do, that he is the worst of sinners and that he has not achieved that which he desires.

 

[reddogs]

This still is not addressing the fact that we HAVE BEEN sanctified in/by Christ. Also, if indeed the writers were referring to the law from Sinai and not the teachings of Christ (entole), then you run into serious problems (because we still break it!).

You cannot follow evil and hold onto and be under the dominion of sin and hold on and have a intimate relationship with Christ with his righteousness at the same time. No man can have two masters, he has to let go of one and grab the other, so when you decide to grab on to Christ and accept his righteousness, and be sanctified in/by Christ, you have to choose.

Sure evil can try and tempt you and entice you to sin, but you no longer serve it and live under its dominion of sin.....

 

[StormyOne]

When I say you wouldn't allow it I didn't mean you would physically stop her from doing it. I meant it would be something you most likely wouldn't tolerate. Adultery is one of the things Christ said was a basis to divorce a woman over. I think everyone knew what I meant here. Why take this discussion down a side road like this to divert the issue?

Thankyou!!!

God Bless
Jim Larmore

it is not a side issue but it does point out something.... Jesus said that Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of the men's heart but that at the beginning there were NO grounds for divorce... NONE...... everyone did not know what you meant which is why I commented as I did.... the reality is that the concept of sinless perfection is flawed.... so we are at the point where I hear what you are saying, but I don't share your view....

 

[Jimlarmore]

it is not a side issue but it does point out something.... Jesus said that Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of the men's heart but that at the beginning there were NO grounds for divorce... NONE...... everyone did not know what you meant which is why I commented as I did.... the reality is that the concept of sinless perfection is flawed.... so we are at the point where I hear what you are saying, but I don't share your view....

I think if it's flawed it's because of our desire to rationalize it into something that is flawed not what God expects.

I do think there is a difference between being sinless in Christ and being perfect . Literal perfection will come just before He comes back when we receive our incorruptible bodies. We can be perfect in Christ now if we choose to be that way by His power.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Sophia7]

So if anyone here wants to claim they are a 'saint' in this group, I would only even consider Sophia7 as coming within a stones throw of that standard and even she would box me around the ears for putting her on the pedestal....

All of us who are in Christ are saints, Red. None of us are perfect.

 

[Loveaboveall]

What an amazing turn in the conversation. Now not only is the fictional sinless perfection treated as a fact which will occur but it is assumed that sinless perfection has been the norm in Christianity. Because Christians have always been the bride of Christ and a relationship with God must equal sinless perfection.

Who expects sinless perfection of their spouse. Do you still expect that after 20 years of marriage. I sure don't, to expect such a thing is set yourself up for failure which is the problem with sinless perfectionism it sets people up for failure as they realize they have not attained and yet they have people like some here saying that you must have it to have a relationship with God. If you aren't totally surrender to God 100% of the time you are not in a relationship with God. Then you can't get away from this whole thing being works related no matter how much you say it is sinless perfection produced by God. Because the problem is me, I don't give myself over to God 100% all the time because if I did then God would make me sinlessly perfect. So I am the problem and when I can give my will over to God completely then and only then do I have salvation otherwise if I die before that mastery over my will then I will not be saved because I am still in sin and sin cannot be in the presence of God.

I am sorry for you guys but this is not a message from God and if you think that is what the Spirit of Prophecy of God has said you have destroyed the gospel. Tear those old hymns out of the hymnal "Just as I am" and "Amazing Grace". If you can't be honest with yourselves how will you ever be honest with God. You can't answer direct questions and some of you retreat to arguments of silence such as "how do you know that the disciples were not sinlessly perfect". Logically worthless arguments like "how do you know Jesus did not go to Tibet and study under the spiritual masters". Such statements when the guy who wrote the most of the the New Testament clearly says he does what he knows he should not do, that he is the worst of sinners and that he has not achieved that which he desires.

Do you have no better argument than going back to the "salvation by works" issue, which is clearly not what is presented when one speaks of the 144,000 perfectly reflecting the character of Christ. This is getting tiresome... How many times have I posted now that it is not a salvation issue? No one has commented on any of the posts re: this. Am I on your "no read" list now? Let me say it again... NO ONE here has ever said or intimated that the bible teaches that one MUST reach a sinless state of perfection to be saved. This is a result of God's work in one's life and is only said in reference to the 144,000 at the end of time. This is not to say others have not reached this point in their love relationship with God, BUT it is not a requirement for salvation, never has been never will be. If one is not looking towards this goal then one has reached a point where they do not feel the need for a savior. To reach it is not the point, to press towards it is what is important.

 

[freeindeed2]

You cannot follow evil and hold onto and be under the dominion of sin and hold on and have a intimate relationship with Christ with his righteousness at the same time.

Who said you could?

4 So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God. 5 When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death. 6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power.

Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit. Romans 7

Believers are dead to the law and to sin. They have been JOINED TO ANOTHER and are alive IN Christ. You're right, we cannot serve two masters. We are either a slave to sin and under the law, or a slave to righteousness and IN Christ. But we cannot be joined to both.

No man can have two masters, he has to let go of one and grab the other, so when you decide to grab on to Christ and accept his righteousness, and be sanctified in/by Christ, you have to choose.

It's not about our actions or mental abilities to 'choose' or 'accept' anything. HE credits us with HIS righteousness. HE justifies us and HE sanctifies us. It's ALL the result of HIS actions taken on our behalf.

Sure evil can try and tempt you and entice you to sin, but you no longer serve it and live under its dominion of sin.....

Correct. We are new creations led by the Spirit, not by obeying the letter of the law.

 

[Loveaboveall]

Saul sure wasn't born again. Neither was David or Samuel, or Isaiah, or anyone before the cross. I'm curious as to what you think born again means and why you think those before the cross could be born again.

Eila,

I do not want to distract from the main topic of the thread but I believe David gives us a good example of how God works in us and through us to sanctify us. This is also a good question for freeindeed...

Ps 51:10-12,17 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me [with thy] free spirit...The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Eila, did David have the gift of the Holy Spirit? Was David baptized in water? How did he recieve this without being baptized? What does it mean to be born again? How can anyone no matter the time they lived be saved without being "born again"? Did those under what you would call the "old covenant" only have to recieve the circumcision of the physical flesh to be saved? Was there not also to be a circumcision of the heart? Is not this what it means to be born again? Is not this what baptism symbolizes?

Free, If David had God's spirit why would he ask God to CREATE something in him and RENEW his spirit? If he aleady had the H.S. would not this have already been done?

Is not this how God works to sanctify us? The Holy Spirit convicted David of his sin and led David to repentance. David felt the awfulness and guilt of what he had done. He gained EXPERIENCE that is to help us progress in our walk with God. We are to learn from our mistakes so that we don't make them again. God has provided a way of escape, all we must do is deny our sinful selfishness and give God the keys to our heart. With this experience David had, do you think he would go and do the same thing again?

 

[Loveaboveall]

19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. John 17

32"Now I commit you to God and to the word of his grace, which can build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. Acts 20

18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' Acts 26

Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 1:2
To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

Maybe you missed it, but Christ has already sanctified ALL who believe in HIM for salvation.

Free, when does sanctification occur? Did Jesus sanctify us all when He died? Even before we were born or chose to accept His free gift of grace? or does it occur when we choose to allow God to sanctify us?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Do you have no better argument than going back to the "salvation by works" issue, which is clearly not what is presented when one speaks of the 144,000 perfectly reflecting the character of Christ. This is getting tiresome... How many times have I posted now that it is not a salvation issue? No one has commented on any of the posts re: this. Am I on your "no read" list now? Let me say it again... NO ONE here has ever said or intimated that the bible teaches that one MUST reach a sinless state of perfection to be saved. This is a result of God's work in one's life and is only said in reference to the 144,000 at the end of time. This is not to say others have not reached this point in their love relationship with God, BUT it is not a requirement for salvation, never has been never will be. If one is not looking towards this goal then one has reached a point where they do not feel the need for a savior. To reach it is not the point, to press towards it is what is important.

Do you read what the other people have said? You yourself purposed that the disciples and martyr's reached sinless perfection.

I personally don't care what you think about the 144,000 as that is not the subject under discussion. You seem to think that your view interpretation of the 144,000 is what this topic is about. It is not. If it is not a salvation issue then what is the point of the doctrine for Christians. The question I have asked many times and the same question which you so poorly answered, but at least you tried which is more then some of the others here would do.

By the way my goal is not sinless perfection my goal is to have a trusting relationship with God.

 

[freeindeed2]

Free, when does sanctification occur? Did Jesus sanctify us all when He died? Even before we were born or chose to accept His free gift of grace? or does it occur when we choose to allow God to sanctify us?

The very moment we are saved in Christ we are sanctified (set apart). It's immediate. At the same time we begin the process of being conformed to the image of Christ (Holy Spirit's work IN us).

 

[reddogs]

Who said you could?

4 So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God. 5 When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death. 6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power.

Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit. Romans 7

Believers are dead to the law and to sin. They have been JOINED TO ANOTHER and are alive IN Christ. You're right, we cannot serve two masters. We are either a slave to sin and under the law, or a slave to righteousness and IN Christ. But we cannot be joined to both.


It's not about our actions or mental abilities to 'choose' or 'accept' anything. HE credits us with HIS righteousness. HE justifies us and HE sanctifies us. It's ALL the result of HIS actions taken on our behalf.


Correct. We are new creations led by the Spirit, not by obeying the letter of the law.

So Cain, Ahab, Jezebel, Samuels sons, Herod, Caiaphas, Annas, the religious leaders/elders/chief priests who plotted to kill Jesus, etc.. all were sanctified and have been saved because 'HE credits them with HIS righteousness. HE justifies them and HE sanctifies them'? I think not, Christ cannot force eternal life on a individual, you as a individual with freewill must present yourself to God and allow his will to be done through Christ........


Matthew 26

The Plot Against Jesus

1When Jesus had finished saying all these things, he said to his disciples, 2"As you know, the Passover is two days away—and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified."
3Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, 4and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him. 5"But not during the Feast," they said, "or there may be a riot among the people."

Judas Agrees to Betray Jesus

14Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests 15and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. 16From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.

Jesus Arrested

47While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. 48Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." 49Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him.

50Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for."[d]
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.
52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"
55At that time Jesus said to the crowd, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. 56But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled." Then all the disciples deserted him and fled. Before the Sanhedrin

57Those who had arrested Jesus took him to Caiaphas, the high priest, where the teachers of the law and the elders had assembled. 58But Peter followed him at a distance, right up to the courtyard of the high priest. He entered and sat down with the guards to see the outcome.

59The chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false evidence against Jesus so that they could put him to death. 60But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward.
Finally two came forward 61and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.' "
62Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" 63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ,[e] the Son of God."
64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."
65Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy! Why do we need any more witnesses? Look, now you have heard the blasphemy. 66What do you think?"
"He is worthy of death," they answered.

 

[freeindeed2]

So Cain, Ahab, Jezebel, Samuels sons, Herod, Caiaphas, Annas, the religious leaders/elders/chief priests who plotted to kill Jesus, etc.. all were sacntified and have been saved because 'HE credits them with HIS righteousness. HE justifies them and HE sanctifies them'?

He credits us with his righteousness because of faith. Did they have faith in God?

I think not, Christ cannot force eternal life on a individual, you as a individual with freewill must present yourself to God and allow his will to be done through Christ........

God did not need our permission to come and save us. And he didn't come down to save us because we made a choice. We're not saved by making a 'presentation' of ourselves to God. We're not saved by 'allowing' God to do anything. So called 'free will' doesn't have a positive history with humans. Adam and Eve demonstrated perfectly what even perfect sinful humans do with 'free will'. We're not saved by 'free will'. You give humans way too much credit. I, for one, deserve absolutely NO credit for salvation. It's ALL Him. You can exercise your 'free will' and take credit for yourself, but I cannot do it. From start to finish God is responsible for my salvation. He is the author and finisher of my faith. I boast ONLY of Christ and him crucified.

 

[reddogs]

All of us who are in Christ are saints, Red. None of us are perfect.

But there are many who 'say' they are in Christ, but are with another. It is the wheat and the tares growing together as Satan sows his harvest to try and make them indistinguishable.........so how are the two seperated......

1. Revelation 12:17
   And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
   Revelation 12:16-17 (in Context) Revelation 12 (Whole Chapter)
2. Revelation 14:12
   Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
   Revelation 14:11-13 (in Context) Revelation 14 (Whole Chapter)
3. Revelation 22:14
   Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
   

 

[reddogs]

He credits us with his righteousness because of faith. Did they have faith in God?


God did not need our permission to come and save us. And he didn't come down to save us because we made a choice. We're not saved by making a 'presentation' of ourselves to God. We're not saved by 'allowing' God to do anything. So called 'free will' doesn't have a positive history with humans. Adam and Eve demonstrated perfectly what even perfect sinful humans do with 'free will'. We're not saved by 'free will'. You give humans way too much credit. I, for one, deserve absolutely NO credit for salvation. It's ALL Him. You can exercise your 'free will' and take credit for yourself, but I cannot do it. From start to finish God is responsible for my salvation. He is the author and finisher of my faith. I boast ONLY of Christ and him crucified.

'Faith', many say it but dont have it, just because a individual says he has 'faith' doesnt make it true, God sees what is in the heart and only He will judge what is there not man.....

1. Romans 2:16
   In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
   Romans 2:15-17 (in Context) Romans 2 (Whole Chapter)
2. 1 Peter 1:17
   And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
   1 Peter 1:16-18 (in Context) 1 Peter 1 (Whole Chapter)
3. Revelation 20:12
   And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
   Revelation 20:11-13 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
4. Revelation 20:13
   And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[freeindeed2]

'Faith', many say it but dont have it, just because a individual says he has 'faith' doesnt make it true, God sees what is in the heart and only He will judge what is there not man.......

Then why do you and several others spend so much time trying to do God's job? It's not your place to determine who does and who doesn't believe in Christ for their salvation (faith). You spend more time casting doubt about people's faith or salvation, or that they can get 'lost' over and over than you do directing people to Jesus who alone is worthy, faithful, all-powerful, and is our Savior. I just don't get it?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Then why do you and several others spend so much time trying to do God's job? It's not your place to determine who does and who doesn't believe in Christ for their salvation (faith). You spend more time casting doubt about people's faith or salvation, or that they can get 'lost' over and over than you do directing people to Jesus who alone is worthy, faithful, all-powerful, and is our Savior. I just don't get it?

Probably because for this kind of doctrine to be incorporated one has to assault other Christians, there are some that don't have faith therefore they don't reach sinless perfection. Yet while they are free to accuse others they have to purposefully ignore their own situations. They don't have the faith to have sinless perfection but they believe they will have it someday so they are OK with God and He is working with them. Others with faith failures are simply frauds who aren't even in a relationship with God. As I said before their view is totally delusional.