The Beast that was and is not identified

[Choose Wisely]

I was talking about your rationale that the Jews become Christians as a result of a pre-trib (pre-70th week) rapture.

But the bible indicates the Jews (Israel) don't become Christians until the middle of the 70th week.

Before I answer, could you clarify what scripture you think says that the Jews do not become Christians until the middle of the 70th week?

 

[Douggg]

Before I answer, could you clarify what scripture you think says that the Jews do not become Christians until the middle of the 70th week?

Revelation 12:10.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Thanks for your thoughts on this, but you fail to explain how Muslims would turn to worshipping the beast. There are a lot of Muslims so that group certainly can't be ignored.

This is an excellent point. To understand how this will happen, we need to see what happens with each of the beasts. The beast out of the sea is the eighth king. We already know that the eighth king is Nimrod and that he is the god of most of the false religions of the world. So there will be no problem getting much of the world to worship the beast.............. as he is already god of their religions. As to the Muslims, how do they come along and worship the beast. The Muslims are currently looking for the Mahdi............ an end times Muslim who will come to power in the last days. That will be your seventh king. What does the 7th king do???????

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The seventh king will cause the earth to worship the eighth king who was and is not and will come again.

So the Muslims, will be looking for the end times Mahdi. This end times Mahdi is the 7th king. This 7th king is "A" king of the North, and he will be a Muslim.

So I guess all you have to do is figure out who the king of the North is...........in the last days (before the 1000 years), and look for a Muslim that comes from that country.......who was "A" king of the North.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Revelation 12:10.

Let's look at Rev 12:13-17.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So the dragon goes after the woman, but she..........the nation of Israel.....flees to a place of protection, for a time, times and half a time.
When the dragon cannot get to the woman, he goes after the remnant of her seed. The remnant of the woman's seed are the 12 tribes across the earth............and as we read, the keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. So the seed of the woman..........the twelve tribes across the earth, have the testimony of Jesus Christ BEFORE the time, times and half a time.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Taking this thought a bit further, do you think it's possible that "the beast" refers not to a single man, but to an idea? That same idea that Nimrod put into the heads of people, being that they don't need God?

Josephus said of Nimrod "He also gradually changed the government into tyranny, seeing no other way of turning men from the fear of God, but to bring them into a constant dependence on his power…" This description of Nimrod rings true today in the form of communism currently at work in large parts of the world, growing in popularity, and trying to claim a foothold in the United States even. This dependence on government, rather than God, and even more so the forceful dependence on government and shunning of God by communist dictators all over the world, reminds me a lot of Nimrod, the man he was and the vision he had for humanity.

Could it be that this "beast" we're looking for is right before our eyes, and is an ideology, not a man?

No, we are looking for a man. He is the king of Babylon and is known as the Assyrian. Nimrod was both the king of Babylon and the king of Assyria.

Isaiah 14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!



10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?



16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;


25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

 

[Douggg]

So the dragon goes after the woman, but she..........the nation of Israel.....flees to a place of protection, for a time, times and half a time.
When the dragon cannot get to the woman, he goes after the remnant of her seed. The remnant of the woman's seed are the 12 tribes across the earth............and as we read, the keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. So the seed of the woman..........the twelve tribes across the earth, have the testimony of Jesus Christ BEFORE the time, times and half a time.

Well, I don't take issue with that the dragon goes after the twelve tribes, commonly called the Jews, all around the globe.

But I take them in Revelation 12:17 as the Jews in Judea in specific, who don't flee into the mountains right away, will be persecuted by Satan from the time/times/half times he will have left. Those are the one Jesus rescues in specific at his return, as they escape through the valley created when Jesus stands on the Mount of Olives in Zechariah 14.

That issue aside, a pretrib (pre-70th week) rapture would not be what makes them turn to Jesus, but the betrayal of their thought-to-be King of Israel/messiah, sometime in the middle of the week.

 

[Freedm]

No, we are looking for a man. He is the king of Babylon and is known as the Assyrian. Nimrod was both the king of Babylon and the king of Assyria.

Isaiah 14:3 And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,

4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!



10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?



16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;


25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

I don't see any solid reason to believe that Isaiah 14 refers to the end times beast.

 

[Douggg]

I don't see any solid reason to believe that Isaiah 14 refers to the end times beast.

Freedm, it is a combination of Ezekiel 28:1-10, which God has the person killed by strangers to him, for claiming to be God.

Then in Isaiah 14:15-20, the person finds his soul in hell and mocked. But God, in disdain for the person, doesn't let him rest there, and brings him back to life. Which the person becomes the beast of Revelation 13 until the end of the 7 years, to be cast alive into the lake of fire at Jesus's return.

 

[Choose Wisely]

I don't see any solid reason to believe that Isaiah 14 refers to the end times beast.

There are a few, without a doubt clues that Isaiah 14 is referring to the end times beast.......but you must understand the clues.

Instead of dealing with that at this time, we should probably address this verse.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Is it possible that you see the word Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12 and that is confusing you? To clarify I prefer the King James translation......however in this case, there is a translation error. The King James translators were translating from Hebrew and apparently became confused with the Hebrew word. However, the translators also had the Latin Vulgate. There is the word "lucifer" in the Latin Vulgate. This is a non capitalized word. The King James translators grabbed the Latin word "lucifer" and capitalized it, making it a proper name. They should have translated the Hebrew word (which I can't write) or the word "lucifer" as "Day Star", or later used "morning star".

If you knew the story of Nimrod or the false religions that came from Babylon, you would would understand that when Nimrod died, it was proclaimed that he became the sun, or the "Day Star". As I told you earlier, most false religions have the "sun" as the male god. All that comes from Nimrod dying and claimed that he is the sun. FYI, it is claimed that a ray of the sun, impregnated Semiramis.......his mother/wife and she gave birth to the reincarnated Nimrod........Tammuz, the false savior. Tammuz is Horus of Egypt, Thor of Norway, Apollo of Greece, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Long story short, Isaiah 14 is talking about the King of Babylon, the Day Star, the Assyrian etc, etc and it is about the last days judgement of such.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Well, I don't take issue with that the dragon goes after the twelve tribes, commonly called the Jew, all around the globe.

But I take them in Revelation 12:17 as the Jews in Judea in specific, who don't flee into the mountains right away, will be persecuted by Satan from the time/times/half times he will have left. Those are the one Jesus rescues in specific at his return, as they escape through the valley created when Jesus stands on the Mount of Olives in Zechariah 14.

That issue aside, a pretrib (pre-70th week) rapture would not be what makes them turn to Jesus, but the betrayal of their thought-to-be King of Israel/messiah, sometime in the middle of the week.


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The verses cannot be referring the Jews in Judea that don't flee. How do we know that? We know the ones that do not flee, 2/3 of the nation of Israel, are killed, then and there. The ones that flee, 1/3 escape. That is when the dragon goes after the seed of the woman...........the twelve tribes across the earth.

 

[Douggg]

The verses cannot be referring the Jews in Judea that don't flee. How do we know that? We know the ones that do not flee, 2/3 of the nation of Israel, are killed, then and there. The ones that flee, 1/3 escape. That is when the dragon goes after the seed of the woman...........the twelve tribes across the earth.

The ones who don't flee in time, yes, some will be killed. But there are also them who live through it, and are the ones who Jesus rescues in Zechariah 14 by escaping through the valley created when Jesus stands on the mount of Olives.

They will flee through that valley to what is called the valley of the mountains, which is the Jordan river valley.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

[Timtofly]

The only way to salvation is to have your head chopped off? Gee, I though Jesus was the only way.

Different Salvation. The second death is spiritual or do you think there are 2 physical deaths and no spiritual death?

 

[Timtofly]

Before I answer, could you clarify what scripture you think says that the Jews do not become Christians until the middle of the 70th week?

Did any one follow Christ before 30AD? Is following Jesus' Words the same as following Christ's Gospel? The book of Hebrews is about the Hebrews being a completed church. It is not really about the religion we call Christianity today. The Jews were not converting from Judaism to Christianity. God stopped dealing with humanity through the Law of Moses and dealt with humanity through the Atonement. Although the Atonement was always in effect by faith and trust in God. The Law was and is still physical. You can still keep the physical Law, since it was never the means of Salvation to begin with. It was a physical economy of a single nation. It was not a religion. Some today worship money, but the economy is not a religion, unless it solely represents humanism. The mark of the beast will be the humanistic religious economy. Satan incorporates worship into the economy. The ATONEMENT is not a religion. It is God's grace and mercy to Adam's fallen descendants. Notice Adam, not Jacob/Israel. Both Jews and Gentiles are equally Adam's descendants.

 

[Freedm]

There are a few, without a doubt clues that Isaiah 14 is referring to the end times beast.......but you must understand the clues.

Instead of dealing with that at this time, we should probably address this verse.

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

I think the word "lucifer" (lower case L) can be used to describe anyone who is in a position of power or glory. Like a human king. The KJV translation is indeed misleading.

 

[Douggg]

I think the word "lucifer" (lower case L) can be used to describe anyone who is in a position of power or glory. Like a human king. The KJV translation is indeed misleading.

From the Jewish Bible (Tanach at Chabad.org) english translation...

12How have you fallen from heaven, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations.

I think the word (transliterated) from Hebrew was Heylel in their Tanach, and later translated by Jerome in the latin bible as Lucifer.

Lucifer, the word, is found only in that one place in the KJV.

LUCIFER IN THE BIBLE

 

[Choose Wisely]

From the Jewish Bible (Tanach at Chabad.org) english translation...

12How have you fallen from heaven, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations.

I think the word (transliterated) from Hebrew was Heylel in their Tanach, and later translated by Jerome in the latin bible as Lucifer.

Lucifer, the word, is found only in that one place in the KJV.

LUCIFER IN THE BIBLE

No, Jerome did not translate the word as "Lucifer" he translated the word as "lucifer" a non proper name. It is the King James translators that grabbed the Latin word lucifer and capitalized it. It should have been translated as "day star" or "morning star" which is Nimrod.

 

[Choose Wisely]

I think the word "lucifer" (lower case L) can be used to describe anyone who is in a position of power or glory. Like a human king. The KJV translation is indeed misleading.

We don't need to think or guess brother as we have all the proof that we need that the verses are referring to Nimrod........... who is the end times antichrist and the eighth king.

Isaiah 14:7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

Those verses tell you that they are referring to Nimrod. We also know that he is the king of Babylon.

Isaiah 14:4 4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

We know that Nimrod is the Assyrian.

Isaiah 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

 

[Douggg]

Isaiah 14:25 That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.

That verse is not talking about the beast, because the beast is destroyed at Jesus's Second Coming when he is on the temple mount. Because Jesus cleans the temple and temple mount from those things that have made it desolate.

The Assyrian in that verse is likely Gog, the leader of the Gog/Magog alliance of nations, which God destroys his army on the mountains in Israel.

 

[Freedm]

... the beast is destroyed at Jesus's Second Coming

This is an interesting point, but how do you think a person is "destroyed"? Does that mean killed? What then? Is that person resurrected on the last day along with the rest of us? Or if you believe a person goes straight to heaven or hell in spirit form, does this person go straight to hell?

Why then do we need Jesus to "destroy" this man? Many evil men have come and gone throughout the millennia, either being killed by the sword, disease or simply old age.

No, I think you've just hit on a very important clue on what this "beast" actually refers to, because the only thing that will be truly destroyed at Jesus' coming is the lie that he's not real, and it's that lie that deceives the world and keeps them from the truth.

 

[Choose Wisely]

That verse is not talking about the beast, because the beast is destroyed at Jesus's Second Coming when he is on the temple mount. Because Jesus cleans the temple and temple mount from those things that have made it desolate.

That verse, Isaiah 14:25 (That I will break the Assyrian in my land, and upon my mountains tread him under foot: then shall his yoke depart from off them, and his burden depart from off their shoulders.) is talking about the beast of the sea. The DAY STAR, is cast into hell. Hell is the lake of fire.

Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

The Assyrian IS THE ANTICHRIST. The Antichrist IS NIMROD. The Babylonian king is Nimrod. The DAY STAR is Nimrod.

The Assyrian in that verse is likely Gog, the leader of the Gog/Magog alliance of nations, which God destroys his army on the mountains in Israel.

Maybe you are unfamiliar with this verse Doug. Gog/Magog happens after the 1000 years, so it can't be Gog that those verses are referring to.

Rev 20:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.