The American Revolution was a sin. And now we are punished by having Trump

[W2L]

God said many things to Joan. I am not a tape recorder and cannot properly recount them. If you're really interested, you can read a good, detailed biography. For our purposes, we can let this go at this, because I'm not prepared to discuss Joan of Arc's revelations in detail.

I'm not interested in NC prophets who claim that God commanded then to kill each other.

 

[Vicomte13]

.No, its you who are twisting it. I see nothing false in what I said. You however have denied part of what I said. You ignore the part where the swords are meant to fulfill a prophecy, and you instead insist that it was meant for self defense.

You people like to play this "Fulfill a prophesy" game, and use that to disregard the direct and clear content of what God said. I reject it, and I reject you as a messenger of it.

Maybe it did fulfill a prophesy, but that is completely irrelevant. The words that he said, the commands he gave, are commands and they apply. The fact that they ALSO fulfill some prophesy, whether really or in somebody else's mind, does not, and cannot, nullify the direct plain meaning of what God says. Not ever.

You are using your belief in some prophesy to nullify the plain direct meaning of what Jesus said. That is twisting the words of God. It is a lie. And it is evil.

You are certain of your "sound" doctrine, and will stand by it. And you and I will fight until the end of our lives about this, because I will not nullify the direct, explicit words of Jesus for some made up speculative doctrine that men who are more pacifist than God have confected in order to get out from an uncomfortable thing that God said.

You're twisting God's words. I am reading them straight and bluntly asserting that Jesus did not lie, and he wasn't being subtle. He meant EXACTLY what he said, as he said it, and if you want to really do as he said and follow him, you will accept that he said something you really don't like, and that your "sound doctrine" is wrong.

You won't do that. So, do we fight and say the same thing back and forth over and over again?
Or do we understand that we have reached an impasse that cannot be bridged, and leave in peace.

I advocate the latter and will let it go here. If you do the same. We disagree on what Jesus meant. We're not going to bridge this gap until after we're dead and it's clear.

 

[W2L]

You people like to play this "Fulfill a prophesy" game, and use that to disregard the direct and clear content of what God said. I reject it, and I reject you as a messenger of it.

Maybe it did fulfill a prophesy, but that is completely irrelevant. The words that he said, the commands he gave, are commands and they apply. The fact that they ALSO fulfill some prophesy, whether really or in somebody else's mind, does not, and cannot, nullify the direct plain meaning of what God says. Not ever.

You are using your belief in some prophesy to nullify the plain direct meaning of what Jesus said. That is twisting the words of God. It is a lie. And it is evil.

You are certain of your "sound" doctrine, and will stand by it. And you and I will fight until the end of our lives about this, because I will not nullify the direct, explicit words of Jesus for some made up speculative doctrine that men who are more pacifist than God have confected in order to get out from an uncomfortable thing that God said.

You're twisting God's words. I am reading them straight and bluntly asserting that Jesus did not lie, and he wasn't being subtle. He meant EXACTLY what he said, as he said it, and if you want to really do as he said and follow him, you will accept that he said something you really don't like, and that your "sound doctrine" is wrong.

You won't do that. So, do we fight and say the same thing back and forth over and over again?
Or do we understand that we have reached an impasse that cannot be bridged, and leave in peace.

I advocate the latter and will let it go here. If you do the same. We disagree on what Jesus meant. We're not going to bridge this gap until after we're dead and it's clear.

Perhaps you might not use the phrase "you people" I speak for myself only. I use all scripture, to try and understand sound doctrine. The apostles didn't need swords because God delivered them himself. Otherwise people would trust in swords rather than God. 2 Corinthians 1:9-10

 

[Moxie123]

Anyone who believes the American Revolution was a sin does not know the law of the land.

You do not learn the law of the land from FOX news and other media sources.

You must go to a law library and study.

On America, there are two jurisdictions on the land. If you don't know what a jurisdiction is, you need to find a law dictionary and look it up. Do you due diligence.

It remains true: we cannot serve two masters [God and fictional government].

 

[Shiloh Raven]

In the Bible it is said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" but "No taxation without representation" is nowhere to be found. And it is clearly stated that we have to submit to earthly authorities (Romans 13:1-6).

So, on what Biblical grounds can we justify the American Revolution? Try as you might, you will find none.

And this is not surprising because the so called "Founding Fathers" were not Christians. Some were "Deists" (which was a polite way to say "agnostic") and some were outright atheists, though most avoided saying so openly.

Before I respond, I would like to warn you first. After I post this response, you will more than likely see some retaliation come up against me and what I will say here. You will more than likely see accusations similar to "The Indians fought and had wars against each other for hunting grounds!" And/or "Some Indians owned African slaves or enslaved other Indians!" There is a very good chance you will see these attempts of justification, and perhaps even other attempts, for all the atrocities that happened against my ancestors, the American Indians, in this country. And you will more than likely see accusations against me personally, such as but not limited to: (1) "Stop playing the victim!" (2) "Stop using the race card!" or "You are race baiting!" (3) "Get over it and stop living in the past!" and (4) "You are spreading hate and white guilt!" All of these accusations and attempts of justifying what happened to my ancestors are common in discussions like this one and can be expected. Many times, these accusations and attempts of justification come like clockwork. So, with these accusations said and out of the way, I will continue with what I wanted to say in response to some of your original post.

If I may respectfully offer different perspective, one of an American Indian. Yes, America was born in sin. It is a nation that resides on stolen tribal lands that its own government cheated, lied and murdered for. The only biblical aspects that can be honestly attributed to America is the insurmountable amount of genocide of Native Americans and the enslavement of African slaves that took place during the continuous theft of tribal lands through hundreds of broken treaties, forced removals, death marches, cultural genocide, and the attempted annihilation of the American Indian. This nation was not originally founded on freedom, liberty or justice other than for the White Anglo-Saxon Protestant male. America was born in genocide and slavery, founded on racism, oppression, and discrimination of minorities, particularly Native Americans and African slaves. White supremacy and white privilege were the driving force behind it all. The arrival of the white man has been compared to a horde of locust, devouring and destroying everything in his path. A horde of locust lay to waste everything in its path and that is what happened when the European settlers came to this land.

Martin Luther King, Jr. also talked about what happened to the American Indian.

"Our nation was born in genocide when it embraced the doctrine that the original American, the Indian, was an inferior race. Even before there were large numbers of Negroes on our shores, the scar of racial hatred had already disfigured colonial society. From the sixteenth century forward, blood flowed in battles of racial supremacy. We are perhaps the only nation which tried as a matter of national policy to wipe out its Indigenous population. Moreover, we elevated that tragic experience into a noble crusade. Indeed, even today we have not permitted ourselves to reject or feel remorse for this shameful episode. Our literature, our films, our drama, our folklore all exalt it."

America was conceived in sin and it has given birth to a monster. That is the justice of God calling us to repentance.

God did not punish America for the millions of native men, women and children who were brutally murdered for the land they lived on. God did not punish America for the theft of all the tribal lands its government stole through hundreds of broken treaties it had made with the Indian nations or for all the forced removals and the death marches that cost countless native men, women and children their lives. God did not punish America for placing native children into Indian Residential Schools in an attempt to strip these children of anything and everything that had to do with being Indian and forcibly Christianizing them. God did not punish America for the centuries of slavery when owning another human being as personal property was legal or for the brutal beatings, lynching and murders of countless African Americans because their race was seen as inferior to white people. But now, God is suddenly going to punish America with Donald Trump or for the sins committed in this country today? If I may say so, I say God is a bit late.

 

[dqhall]

We can't go bankrupt, ever, because the government has the power to print money.

We can never go bankrupt in the true sense of the word, because our government has the power to create money.

President Maduro of Venezuela has sent for a Marxist professor in Spain to advise him. The nation seized multinational oil infrastructure years ago and has heavily taxed capitalists. There is no food on store shelves and there are shopping frenzies whenever food is delivered to stores. People have traveled for two days by bus to reach Brazil with suitcases full of money to buy bags of rice at a border town. The country borrowed much and cannot repay. I am sure the government had all sorts of plans to tax the wealthy and businesses before this day of hunger and gloom. They are forcing people to leave their regular jobs to work on farms in an effort to supply Venezuela with food. The communist revolution failed.

 

[pat34lee]

That's not necessarily true. God commanded the Jews to submit to Babylon, as the prophet Jerimiah told them. I'm not sure what they believed concerning Rome, but I would need to see biblical evidence to show that They were commanded or allowed to rebel against Rome.

They weren't. They were under judgment already and
just about to be kicked out of the land for Sabbath year
violations.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

...No longer. God showed me that this was yet another form of idolatry and that the object of our worship (the so called 'American Constitution") is a love child of the Devil...

Well, that's a new take on the US constitution. Many of us are under the impression the constitution was a Godly document.

Freedom of religion for example is a good thing, and has constitutional guarantees.

Maybe you think the gun rights are a bit extreme under this constitution? That is a valid debatable question.

 

[Vicomte13]

President Maduro of Venezuela has sent for a Marxist professor in Spain to advise him. The nation seized multinational oil infrastructure years ago and has heavily taxed capitalists. There is no food on store shelves and there are shopping frenzies whenever food is delivered to stores. People have traveled for two days by bus to reach Brazil with suitcases full of money to buy bags of rice at a border town. The country borrowed much and cannot repay. I am sure the government had all sorts of plans to tax the wealthy and businesses before this day of hunger and gloom. They are forcing people to leave their regular jobs to work on farms in an effort to supply Venezuela with food. The communist revolution failed.

The country cannot repay foreign debt denominated in US dollars, or in oil (and oil is priced in dollars). If the debt were denominated in Venezuelan Baht (or whatever they use) Venezuela would have already repaid it.

I wrote about US government bankruptcy, not Communist revolution.

 

[Vicomte13]

God did not punish America for the millions of native men, women and children who were brutally murdered for the land they lived on. God did not punish America for the theft of all the tribal lands its government stole through hundreds of broken treaties it had made with the Indian nations or for all the forced removals and the death marches that cost countless native men, women and children their lives. God did not punish America for placing native children into Indian Residential Schools in an attempt to strip these children of anything and everything that had to do with being Indian and forcibly Christianizing them. God did not punish America for the centuries of slavery when owning another human being as personal property was legal or for the brutal beatings, lynching and murders of countless African Americans because their race was seen as inferior to white people. But now, God is suddenly going to punish America with Donald Trump or for the sins committed in this country today? If I may say so, I say God is a bit late.

Are you sure? Now, think about it carefully. How many Americans, mostly white, died in the Civil War? Almost a million. Slavery did several things, from a God's-eye view. It tested Africans in Africa, and they failed and handed over their own for money. So they dwelt in darkness until they were themselves conquered and colonized by those to whom they sold the slaves. Then they got their freedom, but are still struggling with the legacy of their cruelty. And on the American side: great fortunes were made through employment of slaves. But ultimately that wealth was destroyed, and the people who fought to defend the slave wealth died the most, and then have lived through the generations to see a very forcible imposition on them, by threat of violence and prison, of an equality they do not want to accept. The sins of the fathers are visited on generations thereafter. The crime, the problems arising from the poverty of the slaves and their descendants, and also the brutality of a society that was brutal BECAUSE the whites once ruled the roost, but now is increasing brutal to whites, as they lose control to people who legitimately hate them, and who think in the racial terms by which the whites ruled the roost.

The Americans, the whites, the heirs of those evil deeds of the past - today they contracept and abort their future. Who is filling up America now? Latinos. Which is to say: Indians from south of an arbitary line. In the end, the will have come in, killed, built, and then be like the whites of South Africa: demographically overborne by Amerindians, from Mexico and from those Spanish-speaking societies that conquered the Indians, but converted them instead of just killing them.

America's fate is to be Indian once again, with the whites a minority. Whether or not the whites are treated like white Zimbabweans will depend mostly on what they do now. Their best hope is to cease to be white, by intermarrying with Latinos and Blacks, thereby destroying forever the proud race that imposed slavery and conquered the land, as their grandchildren share the blood of the people who once enslaved and conquered them.

And the holdouts, the whites who refuse miscegenation? They will be marginalized.

 

[W2L]

Isn't life more than the body? (Matthew 6:25)Did you realize that your body is a bunch of tiny atoms, or molecules, held together by nothing more than an external force? What keeps you from flying apart? This scripture is a divine revelation. What are politics compared to creation itself? What is mans government compared to Gods mysterious kingdom? We are like blind men pondering how dark the world is. (Matthew 6:23)


Psalm 19New International Version (NIV)


1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.

3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.

4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
In the heavens God has pitched a tent for the sun.

5 It is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
like a champion rejoicing to run his course.

6 It rises at one end of the heavens
and makes its circuit to the other;
nothing is deprived of its warmth.


7 The law of the Lord is perfect,
refreshing the soul.
The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy,
making wise the simple.

8 The precepts of the Lord are right,
giving joy to the heart.
The commands of the Lord are radiant,
giving light to the eyes.

9 The fear of the Lord is pure,
enduring forever.
The decrees of the Lord are firm,
and all of them are righteous.

10 They are more precious than gold,
than much pure gold;
they are sweeter than honey,
than honey from the honeycomb.

11 By them your servant is warned;
in keeping them there is great reward.

12 But who can discern their own errors?
Forgive my hidden faults.

13 Keep your servant also from willful sins;
may they not rule over me.
Then I will be blameless,
innocent of great transgression.

14 May these words of my mouth and this meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight,
Lord, my Rock and my Redeemer.

 

[dqhall]

The country cannot repay foreign debt denominated in US dollars, or in oil (and oil is priced in dollars). If the debt were denominated in Venezuelan Baht (or whatever they use) Venezuela would have already repaid it.

I wrote about US government bankruptcy, not Communist revolution.

The price of a Hershey bar was 5 cents in 1966 during the early part of the Vietnam War. Today the price of a Hershey bar is 17 times as much. On the other hand the price of aluminum is below what it was in 1990. The price of a calculator has dropped from several hundred dollars in the early 70's to about ten dollars today. Nixon took us off the gold standard during his administration. In 1980 at U. Mass, tuition, room and board cost about $2500 for a year. Times have changed. We are not bankrupt. We just need more money to buy the things we need.

Instead of paying taxes to England, we pay taxes to Washington D.C, probably the richest metro area in the nation. You are allowed to vote, but your choices are limited. There is evidence Trump may have tried to bribe Attorney General Pamela Bondi while being investigated for Trump U. fraudulent practices. The Clintons are alleged to have given State Dept. favors in exchange for Clinton Foundation donations and speaking fees for Bill.

 

[Winken]

God did sometimes send military prophets. Joan of Arc is the most recent example I can think of.

Heresy, if not blasphemy, sent Joan along her way.

 

[fi11222]

I think that it is often used by evil authorities to try to keep ignorant Christians in line.
The Nazis were the official authorities also, was obedience to Hitler obedience to God?
How about Stalin?

Stalin and Hitler are above all religious authorities like the Pope. Both Nazism and Communism are totalitarian regimes, which means that they encompass both the secular and the religious. Both Hitler and Stalin were being worshiped as gods on earth (huge rallies, portraits everywhere, children singing their praises, and so on). Even if they did not use the word "god", this is what they were to the people who followed them. As such, they were figures of the Antichrist and this is why it is a duty for Christians to oppose them.

In order to state precisely where the line is, I would add that Franco and Pinochet were not religious authorities. They were tyrants all right but secular tyrants. If you leave under such regimes, as a Christian you have to obey them. Of course, these Franco and Pinochet are sinners and you will pray for God to remove them from power and replace them with a milder form of worldly authority, but there is no grounds in the Bible to not obey them.

 

[fi11222]

Was the Revolutionary War a sin? I don't know. I do know that God isn't going to judge people who were born 200+ later for something they had nothing to do with

God will judge us for the sins of the founding fathers. That is true.

But he will judge us for approving the sins of the founding fathers if we do (Romans 1:32). For example, when a so-called "evangelical" Chuch displays the American flag behind the pulpit, yes, there will be judgment for that.

 

[Widlast]

Stalin and Hitler are above all religious authorities like the Pope. Both Nazism and Communism are totalitarian regimes, which means that they encompass both the secular and the religious. Both Hitler and Stalin were being worshiped as gods on earth (huge rallies, portraits everywhere, children singing their praises, and so on). Even if they did not use the word "god", this is what they were to the people who followed them. As such, they were figures of the Antichrist and this is why it is a duty for Christians to oppose them.

In order to state precisely where the line is, I would add that Franco and Pinochet were not religious authorities. They were tyrants all right but secular tyrants. If you leave under such regimes, as a Christian you have to obey them. Of course, these Franco and Pinochet are sinners and you will pray for God to remove them from power and replace them with a milder form of worldly authority, but there is no grounds in the Bible to not obey them.

Good job of making it up as you go along. Hitler was no more a religious leader than G.W. Bush ( or Killary Clinton intends to be). Let's face it, you're full of nonsense. Take your marbles and go home.

 

[W2L]

Good job of making it up as you go along. Hitler was no more a religious leader than G.W. Bush ( or Killary Clinton intends to be). Let's face it, you're full of nonsense. Take your marbles and go home.

Nice. I see politics are bearing much fruit in us all.

 

[fi11222]

Well, that's a new take on the US constitution. Many of us are under the impression the constitution was a Godly document.

This is exactly what is wrong here. Many so-called evengelicals act as if the US constitution was the 67th book of the Bible. This is how lost they are.

We must wake up and realize several things:

• The constitution was written by deists and Freemasons, i.e. by the spiritual ancestors of Hillary Clinton and Barrack Obama. Modern Liberals are fully justified in claiming the constitution their own.
• Initially, a small step away from God is not seen as such and this is why the constitution can be seen as "good". Indeed, the problem is not so much in its content but in the fact that we increasingly tend to rely on it for our protection, instead of relying solely on God.
• There is however some elements of the constitution which are, at the very least, double-edged swords. Take the "separation of Church and state" for example. It seems good at first because it prevents the government from engaging in religious persecution. Ok. But then it also lends support to the idea that religion is a "private" matter that should be altogether banished from the public sphere, an idea which is obviously unbiblical ("shouting from the rooftops") Finally, it gives grounds for atheists to forbid any mention of God by public servants. This is what prevented the astronauts of Apollo 11 from shouting "Alleluia" and quoting scripture when they landed on the moon. This shows you how the constitution, like everything of this world, turns into godlessness eventually.
  
• Treating the constitution as if it was a holy book increasingly turns an ever larger section of "evangelicals" into zealots. They store up mountains of ammunitions in their basement and own 2 ARs and 5 AKs (because they are cheaper). What do they need that much firepower for? Home defense? Come on! A revolver or at most a good automatic pistol is far better for that than an unwieldy and heavy AK! Those weapons are not for home defense but for guerrilla fighting. Those who have that kind of basement yearn for a mass uprising. They yearn for war. They yearn for the kind of thing now happening in Syria and Irak. In other words, when offered to choose between Christ and Barabbas (who was a zealot leader, i.e. the head of an anti-Roman militant group), they choose the latter.

As Christians, we are again offered to choose. Either to submit to God's ordained world (even if that includes Hillary or whoever as president) or to rebel Barabbas-style. What will we choose: Jesus Christ or Barabbas ?

 

[Krillin]

There is in fact a definite difference between agnostic and deist. An agnostic says that maybe there is a god, and maybe there isn't. A deist says that there would have to exist an individual that created the universe, but this god is no a god that interacts with its creation.

 

[Philip_B]

As an outside observer, though very aware that your decision is important, not simply to you, but to all the world, such is the importance of your economic and military strength.

My feeling is that the US Constitution, like the Australian Constitution, provides for equity in a system of religious pluralism.

As such the state is 'soulless' when it comes to a religious position, however the state upholds principles of justice and equity, supporting and sustaining those who wish to exercise a religious position and those who do not. Religious institutions have historically - and it continues - been involved in a number of areas, including education, health, social welfare, and community support systems. The state at times augments assists, in these areas, and at times the Church assists and augments the efforts of the state in these.

There is a separation of Church and State, and on any number of issues the Church is free to speak, as is any other free assembly of citizens, on the merits or otherwise of any given proposition.

There will be Christians on both sides of the debate, and there will be those who seek the support of Christians in this race, and our diversity means that we should maintain a level of integrity and respect, not simply for those who agree with us, but also for those who don't. I have suggested in Australia political parties should not be able to people what the other side is saying. This leads to confusion and misinformation.

I think all Christians should call for more openness, more fairness, less name calling, and clear policy, that the people of the USA may make wise decisions, praying that the Holy Spirit will guide and govern the process, and that in the end the people speak, (not the voting machines).