The American Revolution was a sin. And now we are punished by having Trump

[W2L]

I'll give you some:

It may be the last days, and God may have given you great gifts and promises more, but God didn't take away your biology. You still have to eat, drink, clothe yourself, house yourself. You still have to provide everything for your children and your spouse. You still have to provision reasonably for the winter of old age. You still have pain receptors, and so do your dependents, and while you may be straining to be free of this world, God has chosen to very physically bind you to it, by the body and its needs, and by physical pain and dire consequences if you disregard it.

All of those things in the world involve property exchanges, and property exchanges are all governed by human law and human society. We cannot live alone, naked, in the woods, anywhere on earth. There is nowhere to flee too. Nor can we disregard our physical needs or those of our dependents. In fact, one of the hardest part of YHWHs and Jesus' message was that if you have MORE than you need, there are multiple divine commandments that you have to give your excess away, to people from whom you may well derive no material benefit, to help them also meet the requirements of life. And you have to be happy about it, not charge interest, not expect to be paid back, and forgive the debt after a certain amount of time.

The loftiest Christians in the world start to get quite satanic (in the true meaning of the world), when you remind them that they can't ever become financially rich, because they have to lend out or give away all of their excess once they have what they need. Jesus is really quite demanding when it comes to finance.

So, we live in a material world, where God has placed us, and while we may be spirits, we are spirits entombed, for the present, in flesh, and have material needs - and God KNOWS that, indeed, it's part of our education that we have to actually feed bodies, and care for dependents, and then care for people who are not our flesh and blood, and that we have to do it not just with our prayers, but with our excess gold and dollars, all of them.

The material world is bound by natural law, physical law, and also human law. Human law is set by politicians. In much of the world, there are kings, or the equivalent, men who have used violence to establish their suzerainty. But where we live, our forebears violently seized the crown and fractionated it among all of us. So, like it or not, you are a fractional monarch, and you have the responsibilities of a king, along with the responsibilities of your private life.

God held monarchs accountable for not obeying his law in their royal capacity. It is not enough to "be a nice person and pray". If you are the king, you have power, and God commanded the kings to use that power to effect, through the government, what was also to be effected privately. Prophets were sent to excoriate kings for forgetting the poor.

You're not much of a king. You've got 1/200 millionth of the crown. But it is something, and you are accountable to God for what you do with that power. Acknowledging you can't do much is honest, but disregarding all aspects of your duties completely is a moral abdication.

People in numbers determine the laws, and there certainly are good and bad laws. In our civil role, we have to use our tiny fractional piece of the scepter to try to make the laws good.

Doesn't mean we need to become politicians or obsess. Does mean we can't be "above" politics to the point that we simply ignore them completely.

Everything you just said is just that, the "natural" world. The natural man doesn't receive the things of God. Christ said to not worry about such things but to seek the kingdom and God will ad those things to us. You are actually contradicting sound doctrine.

 

[Archivist]

This country was actually founded by the Pilgrims and they had the Pilgrim compact. Later on the so called: "Founding Fathers" came up with the constitution and the form of government that we have now. The gave us plenty of warnings.

Incorrect.

The Virginia Company's settlement at Jamestown predated the Pilgrams.

 

[Vicomte13]

A correction to this. While people found guilty of witchcraft in Continental Europe were burned, that was not the case in England after the adoption of Witchcraft Act of 1542. That made witchcraft a felony with a punishment of death by hanging, not burning. The same rule applied to Britian's American colonies.

In England. In Scotland, the burning continued apace. Truth is, Christianity in those ages was Islamic in its evil and ferocity.

 

[Archivist]

In England. In Scotland, the burning continued apace. Truth is, Christianity in those ages was Islamic in its evil and ferocity.

That is why I specified England. And yes, what was done to those accused of being witches was evil. Dittos for what was done to the Anabaptists.

 

[Vicomte13]

Everything you just said is just that, the "natural" world. The natural man doesn't receive the things of God. Christ said to not worry about such things but to seek the kingdom and God will ad those things to us. You are actually contradicting sound doctrine.

I am living in the real world. And so are you. You are a natural man living in the natural world. And if you stop living in it, you will cease to be alive in short order.

It is well, indeed best, to remember that we are ultimately called out of the natural world. But it is suicide to pretend that being a Christian means that you cease to be a biological creature bound by the same natural laws - which are imposed by God - as everybody else.

God didn't put you in the body as a throwaway, but to teach you something by having to tend to it. And if he sent you children, you have a great number of physical, material concerns of this world to which you must attend or else fail your duties and sin thereby.

Christ said that if you attend to the things of God, that God will be sure you have what you need. But note what "the things of God" he talked about are: providing material things in the natural world to the poor, for instance, healing the sick, lending cloaks - very practical material things to material creatures in the material world.

The Greek philosophers believed that the ideal was true and the material was flawed and fallen. But God made the material world good, and he made people material, and made us dependent on material things for a reason. We're not spirits. We're spirits that have bodies, and the fact of those bodies is important. We are not meant to ignore them and learn nothing. God knows he has set us a hard path, and that is why persisting to the end wins a prize and will ultimately place us above the angels. It's much easier to be an angel, or a demon, than it is to be a man BECAUSE we are creatures dwelling in the material, animated lumps of clay, with all the limitation that implies.

If it is "unsound doctrine" to observe the way that God actually made us, and works on us, and what Jesus said we are to do - how very MATERIAL it all is - and it is "sound doctrine" to think like a Greek philosopher and disdain the material world God made, I'll stick with "unsound doctrine", because it happens to be TRUE, and the "sound doctrine" is out of kilter. To feed a hungry child, you need material food, not mere words. Words are wind.

 

[lesliedellow]

I quite agree. Those damn colonials should repent in sack cloth and ashes immediately. And the prospect of having Mega Mouth as their President is a more than just punishment.

 

[W2L]

I am living in the real world. And so are you. You are a natural man living in the natural world. And if you stop living in it, you will cease to be alive in short order.

It is well, indeed best, to remember that we are ultimately called out of the natural world. But it is suicide to pretend that being a Christian means that you cease to be a biological creature bound by the same natural laws - which are imposed by God - as everybody else.

God didn't put you in the body as a throwaway, but to teach you something by having to tend to it. And if he sent you children, you have a great number of physical, material concerns of this world to which you must attend or else fail your duties and sin thereby.

Christ said that if you attend to the things of God, that God will be sure you have what you need. But note what "the things of God" he talked about are: providing material things in the natural world to the poor, for instance, healing the sick, lending cloaks - very practical material things to material creatures in the material world.

The Greek philosophers believed that the ideal was true and the material was flawed and fallen. But God made the material world good, and he made people material, and made us dependent on material things for a reason. We're not spirits. We're spirits that have bodies, and the fact of those bodies is important. We are not meant to ignore them and learn nothing. God knows he has set us a hard path, and that is why persisting to the end wins a prize and will ultimately place us above the angels. It's much easier to be an angel, or a demon, than it is to be a man BECAUSE we are creatures dwelling in the material, animated lumps of clay, with all the limitation that implies.

If it is "unsound doctrine" to observe the way that God actually made us, and works on us, and what Jesus said we are to do - how very MATERIAL it all is - and it is "sound doctrine" to think like a Greek philosopher and disdain the material world God made, I'll stick with "unsound doctrine", because it happens to be TRUE, and the "sound doctrine" is out of kilter. To feed a hungry child, you need material food, not mere words. Words are wind.

Your speech quoting Greek philosophers is just a carnal argument. You are contradicting sound doctrine, and that's the plain truth.

 

[W2L]

I quite agree. Those damn colonials should repent in sack cloth and ashes immediately. And the prospect of having Mega Mouth as their President is a more than just punishment.

Perhaps you have something to repent of as well.

 

[Vicomte13]

Your speech quoting Greek philosophers is just a carnal argument. You are contradicting sound doctrine, and that's the plain truth.

Hungry children are filled by food, not doctrine. Doctrine can assist people by causing them to remember they have to feed them. Mother Theresa knew she was supposed to feed the children because of doctrine. But she's a saint and most people are not because she actually DID IT. Without the natural, physical, material acts, doctrine is nothing but words, which is to say, wind.

 

[Archivist]

I quite agree. Those damn colonials should repent in sack cloth and ashes immediately. And the prospect of having Mega Mouth as their President is a more than just punishment.

Current polls show Trump is trailing. Unfortunately his major competition is no better. I might vote Green or write in television hostess Vanna White.

 

[W2L]

Hungry children are filled by food, not doctrine. Doctrine can assist people by causing them to remember they have to feed them. Mother Theresa knew she was supposed to feed the children because of doctrine. But she's a saint and most people are not because she actually DID IT. Without the natural, physical, material acts, doctrine is nothing but words, which is to say, wind.

That doesn't justify Christians coveting another mans wealth, or being divided over politics, or slandering their leaders or each other as politicians do. Politics are carnal, not spiritual.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

It had legal support in the US.....that would be rebelling against "Caesar"....

Sorry, any theology that sanctions cooperating with slavery is not going to gain my adherence.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Britain freed slaves long before America. If the 13 states had remained under the British crown, the slaves would have been freed earlier.

That's a good point. And while kings are definately not God's favorite way of running a nation . . . it seems that Britain and Canada and such places have worked out a way of taking care of the worst aspects of having a king.

 

[Winken]

When "I" sit down at my desk each day, I'm not the "I" that just left home. I'm not the "I" that struggled in traffic on the way to the office. I'm not the "I" who loved my wife and contacted my children and grand-children the evening before. My "I" adjusts to each situation. My focus has shifted, but not once, not once, in any situation, do I drop out of my Faith in my Savior, and HE never leaves me. I do what I must do in every situation. I do so with our Lord's ever-present, effervescent sustaining Power. I know how (rather, HE knows how), to separate the secular from the Spiritual. If I veer off course, sliding into the secular as my guide, it is the sinful "I" that encourages me to do so. That sinful "I" leads to coveting, divisions over politics, slandering --- to carnality.

How much clearer can it be? HE provides and sustains my path, not "I". We Christians so often just don't know the difference...... and we get tangled up in "Christian" forums.

 

[Vicomte13]

That doesn't justify Christians coveting another mans wealth,

Ah. Now this is interesting. Of course people are not to "covet" each others wealth.

But Christians are not permitted by Christ to accumulate excess wealth in the first place (neither are Jews), so when Christians and Jews (who are following sound doctrine anyway) see men with accumulated wealth, they should not be coveting the wealth, any more than a Christian or Jew who sees a man in a sexual romp with two beautiful women should be coveting the women, but they should be CRITICIZING the immorality of the accumulation of wealth and the sexual immorality, and urging the philanderer and the wealth accumulator to cease their sin and walk properly.

That would be sound doctrine, right?

 

[W2L]

When "I" sit down at my desk each day, I'm not the "I" that just left home. I'm not the "I" that struggled in traffic on the way to the office. I'm not the "I" who loved my wife and contacted my children and grand-children the evening before. My "I" adjusts to each situation. My focus has shifted, but not once, not once, in any situation, do I drop out of my Faith in my Savior, and HE never leaves me. I do what I must do in every situation. I do so with our Lord's ever-present, effervescent sustaining Power. I know how (rather, HE knows how), to separate the secular from the Spiritual. If I veer off course, sliding into the secular as my guide, it is the sinful "I" that encourages me to do so. That sinful "I" leads to coveting, divisions over politics, slandering --- to carnality.

How much clearer can it be? HE provides and sustains my path, not "I". We Christians so often just don't know the difference...... and we get tangled up in "Christian" forums.

Well, politicians are like false teachers and do lead people astray, and the church seems blind to it.

 

[Vicomte13]

We Christians so often just don't know the difference...... and we get tangled up in "Christian" forums.

Yeh. That's true.

 

[W2L]

Ah. Now this is interesting. Of course people are not to "covet" each others wealth.

But Christians are not permitted by Christ to accumulate excess wealth in the first place (neither are Jews), so when Christians and Jews (who are following sound doctrine anyway) see men with accumulated wealth, they should not be coveting the wealth, any more than a Christian or Jew who sees a man in a sexual romp with two beautiful women should be coveting the women, but they should be CRITICIZING the immorality of the accumulation of wealth and the sexual immorality, and urging the philanderer and the wealth accumulator to cease their sin and walk properly.

That would be sound doctrine, right?

America isn't the Church though. WE however still have no right to covet its wealth.

 

[pat34lee]

Christ said that we are to resist religious authorities that are unfaithful (the scribes, the pharisees, the Sanhedrin) and it is on those grounds that Luther and the early protestants resisted the Pope.

But he also clearly said, and Paul also, that we are not to rebel against secular authorities ('Caesar'). Otherwise, we are not better than the zealots and their chief representative in the gospels: Barabbas. Who do you want: Jesus or Barabbas?

Finally, it should be noted that "tyranny" is never mentioned in the scripture as a thing we are to rebel against. This word denotes a Greek concept which has nothing to do with the New Testament.

I'll guess you didn't know that the first century believers (pre-Christians)
fought with the other Jews against Rome, at least until Bar Kochba was
declared Messiah. Then they could no longer follow him.

 

[W2L]

I'll guess you didn't know that the first century believers (pre-Christians)
fought with the other Jews against Rome, at least until Bar Kochba was
declared Messiah. Then they could no longer follow him.

That's not necessarily true. God commanded the Jews to submit to Babylon, as the prophet Jerimiah told them. I'm not sure what they believed concerning Rome, but I would need to see biblical evidence to show that They were commanded or allowed to rebel against Rome.