The Alternative to a Rapture

[keras]

Isaiah 14:27 The Lord has prepared His plan, no one can frustrate it.

Isaiah 14:28-32 An oracle from God: Do not rejoice, all you Philistines, that the rod that struck you is broken, for from the root of the snake will spring up a viper, it will strike with venom of fire. The poor and needy, [righteous Israel] will find pasture, they will dwell in safety. But your offspring I shall destroy by famine and your remnant I shall slay by My sword. Wail at the gate, let all Philistia be stricken with panic, for fire and smoke will come upon you.
What answer shall be given to that nations envoys? It is that the Lord has established Zion and in that Land, His afflicted people will find refuge.


Verses 28-31: Philistia [Palestine] and the entire Middle East region, will be virtually depopulated by fire from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Amos 1:6-8, Amos 2:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Joel 3:4, Zephaniah 1:14-18

Verse 32: New Israel, Beulah- Isaiah 62:1-5, is established; His people living in peace and prosperity. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Jeremiah 46:27, Hosea 14:4-7, Ephesians 2:13-18.
All the faithful Christian peoples. in all of the holy Land, during the end times and over all the world in the Millennium.

 

[Douggg]

Your opinions and guesswork.
No one receives Eternal life before the Book of Life is opened.
Any belief of immortality before the Eternal state, Revelation 21 to 22, is contrary to scripture and to commonsense logic.

keras, you have no scriptural text that says them in Revelation 20:4 die again, and are resurrected again. It does not even make sense what you believe - that them martryed during the great tribulation for their testimony of Jesus, and refusing to take the mark, nor worshipping the beast, nor his image - are rewarded by living again for 10 or 15 more years in mortal bodies to die again. Is that how you think God works?

What's the point in your view of them being resurrected in Revelation 20:4? Is that what you are looking for in the resurrection - to live another 10 or 15 years in a mortal body subject to all kinds of diseases and illnesses?

 

[keras]

keras, you have no scriptural text that says them in Revelation 20:4 die again, and are resurrected again.

But I do have; the example of Lazarus.

that them martryed during the great tribulation for their testimony of Jesus, and refusing to take the mark, nor worshipping the beast, nor his image - are rewarded by living again for 10 or 15 more years in mortal bodies to die again. Is that how you think God works?

That is how the Bible tells it will happen.
You seem to not have read Prophecies about living in the Millennium. People will be as long lived as a tree, Isaiah 65"20-25, No one living there will say: I am sick...Isaiah 33:24, Micah 4:1-8

As for any 'rapture to heaven' Isaiah 14:32 totally refutes it.
We are, or should be: the poor and needy, Isaiah 14:30, the meek who will inherit the earth.

 

[Douggg]

But I do have; the example of Lazarus.

That is how the Bible tells it will happen.
You seem to not have read Prophecies about living in the Millennium. People will be as long lived as a tree, Isaiah 65"20-25, No one living there will say: I am sick...Isaiah 33:24, Micah 4:1-8

As for any 'rapture to heaven' Isaiah 14:32 totally refutes it.
We are, or should be: the poor and needy, Isaiah 14:30, the meek who will inherit the earth.

Lazarus was not a great tribulation martyr, to be an example. The great tribulation martyrs are end times. Lazarus will not be one of those in Revelation 20:4.

Lazarus did not die for his testimony about Jesus, nor did Lazarus die for not taking the mark, nor worshipping the beast, nor his image.

You are taking things out of context in Isaiah 65:20-25, Isaiah 33:42, Micah 4:1-8. None of those long, but not eternal life, verses are applying to resurrected to eternal life saints.

Isaiah 14:28-32 is a prophecy against the Philistines in the days following king Ahaz death.

 

[Douggg]

As for any 'rapture to heaven' Isaiah 14:32 totally refutes it.

How is the mystery that Paul spoke about in 1Corinthians15 regarding the changing of the living and the resurrection of the dead in Christ - be a mystery if Martha was already aware of there being a resurrection day?

The 1Corinthians15 and the 1Thessalonian4 rapture/resurrection event is a special event only for Christians.

 

[keras]

Lazarus was not a great tribulation martyr, to be an example. The great tribulation martyrs are end times. Lazarus will not be one of those in Revelation 20:4.

Lazarus did not need to be a martyr. His role in the Bible, was to show how God can raise humans back to mortal life.

Isaiah 14:28-32 is a prophecy against the Philistines in the days following king Ahaz death.

Your obviously haven't bothered to research your false statement above. 'Hezekiah became King after Ahaz and although he was successful against the Philistines, 2 Kings 18:8, it was the attack by Shalmaneser of Assyria that kept Hezekiah busy.
The description in Isaiah 14:28-32, bears no relation to ancient battles. It will be fulfilled in the end times. which is almost upon the world now.
Proved by how this disaster will come from the North. Isaiah 14:31

How is the mystery that Paul spoke about in 1Corinthians15 regarding the changing of the living and the resurrection of the dead in Christ - be a mystery if Martha was already aware of there being a resurrection day?

Martha spoke a Prophetic Word. Then Jesus said: I am the Resurrection and the Life, whosoever has faith in Me shall live, even though they die.

The 1Corinthians15 and the 1Thessalonian4 rapture/resurrection event is a special event only for Christians.

Sure they are: 1 Thess 4:17 will happen when Jesus Returns. 1 Cor 15:50-56 will happen at the GWT Judgment.

 

[Douggg]

Your obviously haven't bothered to research your false statement above. 'Hezekiah became King after Ahaz and although he was successful against the Philistines, 2 Kings 18:8, it was the attack by Shalmaneser of Assyria that kept Hezekiah busy.
The description in Isaiah 14:28-32, bears no relation to ancient battles. It will be fulfilled in the end times. which is almost upon the world now.

Isaiah 14:28 In the year that king Ahaz died was this burden.

29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken [Ahaz's death]:for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

Ahaz had died and the rest of Isaiah 14 to the end verse 32 is a prophesy against the Philistines in the years that followed Ahaz's death. The death of Ahaz has no bearing on the end times.

Martha spoke a Prophetic Word. Then Jesus said: I am the Resurrection and the Life, whosoever has faith in Me shall live, even though they die.

"a Prophetic Word"? Martha didn't speak a prophetic word - Jesus did.

What Martha spoke was about the day of resurrection. She did not understand nor had knowledge of the mystery that Paul spoke about in 1Corinthians 15:50-53. The rapture/resurrection event that Paul spoke about in 1Thessalonians4:15-8 and 1Cointhians 15:50-53 is for Christians only.

Martha was aware of the day of resurrection, but Martha was not aware of the mystery event that Paul spoke.

Sure they are: 1 Thess 4:17 will happen when Jesus Returns.

1Thessalonians4:15-18 is about the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the transformation of the living in Christ into eternal life everlasting bodies.

You are claiming that does not take place until after the thousand years are finished for the Great White Throne judgement. Yet above, you say the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture of the living in Christ takes place at Jesus's Second coming ?

Do you not believe that Jesus's Second coming results in the beginning of the 1000 year millennium rule of Christ?

 

[keras]

Ahaz had died and the rest of Isaiah 14 to the end verse 32 is a prophesy against the Philistines in the years that followed Ahaz's death.

Isaiah 14:28-32, is paralleled by Zephaniah 2:1-6 and many other Prophesies that describe the forthcoming depopulation of the entire Middle East.
Verse 32 is the clincher. ...the Lord has established Zion, [the holy Land] and His afflicted peoples will find refuge there.
NOT what happened after Hezekiah, or as yet; but it will after the day of the Lords fiery wrath.

The rapture/resurrection event

There is no such thing, You have made that up.
The only people resurrected will be the GT martyrs, when Jesus Returns.

1Thessalonians4:15-18 is about the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the transformation of the living in Christ into eternal life everlasting bodies.

You wrongly add to this scripture. It does not say anyone will be raptured to heaven, or bodily transformed and only the GT martyrs will be resurrected.
The living Christians will be transported, to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be. for the Millennium.

Your beliefs rely on adding to scripture and assuming things, which are refuted and corrected elsewhere.

 

[Douggg]

Isaiah 14:28-32, is paralleled by Zephaniah 2:1-6 and many other Prophesies that describe the forthcoming depopulation of the entire Middle East.
Verse 32 is the clincher. ...the Lord has established Zion, [the holy Land] and His afflicted peoples will find refuge there.
NOT what happened after Hezekiah, or as yet; but it will after the day of the Lords fiery wrath.

There is no such thing, You have made that up.
The only people resurrected will be the GT martyrs, when Jesus Returns.

You wrongly add to this scripture. It does not say anyone will be raptured to heaven, or bodily transformed and only the GT martyrs will be resurrected.
The living Christians will be transported, to Jerusalem, where Jesus will be. for the Millennium.

Your beliefs rely on adding to scripture and assuming things, which are refuted and corrected elsewhere.

No, them resurrected in1Thessalonains4:15-18 is not referring to the great tribulation martyrs.

1Thessalonians4:13, Paul refers to all of the dead in Christ, up to the time when the rapture/resurrection event takes place.

13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

 

[Happygolucky?]

Isaiah 14:27 The Lord has prepared His plan, no one can frustrate it.

Isaiah 14:28-32 An oracle from God: Do not rejoice, all you Philistines, that the rod that struck you is broken, for from the root of the snake will spring up a viper, it will strike with venom of fire. The poor and needy, [righteous Israel] will find pasture, they will dwell in safety. But your offspring I shall destroy by famine and your remnant I shall slay by My sword. Wail at the gate, let all Philistia be stricken with panic, for fire and smoke will come upon you.
What answer shall be given to that nations envoys? It is that the Lord has established Zion and in that Land, His afflicted people will find refuge.


Verses 28-31: Philistia [Palestine] and the entire Middle East region, will be virtually depopulated by fire from the sun. Isaiah 30:26, Amos 1:6-8, Amos 2:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Joel 3:4, Zephaniah 1:14-18

Verse 32: New Israel, Beulah- Isaiah 62:1-5, is established; His people living in peace and prosperity. Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Jeremiah 46:27, Hosea 14:4-7, Ephesians 2:13-18.
All the faithful Christian peoples. in all of the holy Land, during the end times and over all the world in the Millennium.

This war will continue and escalate to a world wide event described in Haggai 2:21-23 will occur

21“Speak to Zerubbabel governorof Judah, saying, ‘I am going to shake the heavens and the earth. 22And I will overthrow the thrones of kingdoms and destroy the power of the kingdoms of the [v]nations; and I will overthrowthe chariots and their riders, and the horses and their riders will go down, every one by the swordof another.’ 23‘On that day,’ declares the LORD of armies, ‘I will take you, Zerubbabel, son of Shealtiel, My servant,’ declares the LORD, ‘and I will make you like a [w]signet ring, for I have chosen you,’” declares the LORD of armies.


After this, the times of the restoration of all things spoken of by the holy prophets since ancient times will begin Acts 3:19-21

The cities of Judah (Gaza and Damascus included) will be rebuilt. And all things will be restored even as Jesus spoke in Matthew 17:11-12

So essentially this coming world wide event, will open the doors for the restoration of all things. It cannot begin until after the events described in Haggai 2:21-22

 

[keras]

them resurrected in1Thessalonains4:15-18 is not referring to the great tribulation martyrs.

Revelation 20:4, proves that Paul is referring only to the GT martyrs.
Revelation 20:5 is undeniable: The rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years is over.

Why must you constantly and consistently avoid scriptures that tell the true story?

Those who do 'sleep' in death; including Job, Abraham and David, who are mentioned as awaiting the final Judgment, DO have a hope, as their names will be found in the Book of Life.

 

[keras]

So essentially this coming world wide event, will open the doors for the restoration of all things. It cannot begin until after the events described in Haggai 2:21-22

Over 100 other Prophesies vividly describe the forthcoming Day when the Lord will change the world.
It will be the Sixth Seal event, triggered by an attempt to destroy Israel by nuke missiles. Psalm 7:12-16, +

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 20:4, proves that Paul is referring only to the GT martyrs.
Revelation 20:5 is undeniable: The rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years is over.

Paul did not say one word about the one in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 about being the great tribulation martyrs.

Why must you constantly and consistently avoid scriptures that tell the true story?

keras, you are making things up that is not in the text.

The text of Revelation 20:4 does not say that the resurrected great tribulation martyrs would die again and then be resurrected again. It does not even make sense what you are asserting.

 

[keras]

Paul did not say one word about the one in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 about being the great tribulation martyrs.

But we know they are only the GT martyrs, from Rev 20:4
It is you who wrongly want to include other dead people when Jesus Returns.

1 Thess 4:17, is about the living Christians, who will be transported to Jerusalem, as Matthew 24:30-31 says.

The text of Revelation 20:4 does not say that the resurrected great tribulation martyrs would die again and then be resurrected again. It does not even make sense what you are asserting.

Their mortal bodies must die again, as Lazarus did. When they are raised again; at the GWT Judgment, they will then receive immortality
Their second death' is not the second death of all those whose names will not be found in the Book of Life. Revelation 20:14-15

That these truths do not make sense to you, is because you are locked into your delusions and have a long term commitment to promoting theories and ideas that are not Bible truths.

 

[Douggg]

But we know they are only the GT martyrs, from Rev 20:4
It is you who wrongly want to include other dead people when Jesus Returns.

The rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is before the great tribulation begins.

Their mortal bodies must die again, as Lazarus did. When they are raised again; at the GWT Judgment, they will then receive immortality

The resurrected great tribulation martyrs are not Lazarus! Two completely different circumstances..

There is nothing in Revelation 20 about the great tribulation martyrs dying again and resurrected again.

Also, Christians who take part in the rapture/resurrection event will not have to stand for judgment at the Great White Throne judgment either.

 

[keras]

The rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 is before the great tribulation begins.

1 Thess 4:15-17,.....when the Lord comes.......the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.....then we who are still alive......
At the glorious Return...... after Jesus departs from heaven........those faithful Christians who kept the faith during the Great Trib......

You are so plainly wrong, you should be embarrassed and repentant of your false teachings. But no, you just keep on; losing all credibility.

the rest of #95 is unworthy of comment.
It has been good to converse with you, Douggg, but now that you display total intransigence and inability to comprehend the truths of Bible Prophecy, I may have to ignore you.

 

[keras]

More Bible truths about what actually will happen;

Zechariah 8:2-23 Again, the word of the Lord came to me; I am very jealous for My holy Land, I am burning with jealousy for her. This is what the Lord says; I will return to Zion and dwell in Jerusalem, it will be called the City of Faithfulness and the Temple mount will be called the Holy Mountain.

This is what the Lord Almighty says; Once again old people and children will inhabit the streets of Jerusalem. Even if this may seem impossible to the remnant of this nation, will it be impossible for Me?

I am about to rescue My people from countries in the East and West and bring them back to live in Jerusalem. They will be My people and I shall be their God, in faithfulness and justice.

These are the words of the Lord of Hosts; Take heart, all you who now hear that the Temple is to be rebuilt as the prophets foretold. Before that time, there was no hiring of man or beast, because of your enemies, for I had set every man against his neighbour. But, I do not feel the same toward the remnant of this people as I did in former days, says the Lord of Hosts. For they will sow in safety, I will give them rain and the Land will yield it’s produce. This is the inheritance of My people. To the nations you, House of Judah and House of Israel, have become as a curse; now I shall save you – you will become proverbial as a blessing. Courage, do not lose heart!

These are the words of the Lord; Just as I determined to bring disaster on you when your forefathers made Me angry, so I have resolved to do good again to Jerusalem and Judah. Do not be afraid. This is what you must do; speak the truth to each other and administer true justice in your courts. Do not plot evil and do not love perjury, for all these I hate. This is the word of the Lord.

These are the words of the Lord; Keep the fasts of the 4th, 5th, 7th and 10th months. They will be festivals of joy for Judah. Love truth and peace. In future, nations and peoples will come to Jerusalem to entreat the favour of the Lord. In those days, 10 people from every nation will take hold of a Jew and say; Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. Ref; REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.



‘I am about to rescue My people…they will be My people and I will be their God’. We know from New Testament teaching, that the Lord’s people are every true Christian person, Jew or Gentile. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Rev 5:9-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16 Now I shall take thought for My sheep…I will rescue them from wherever they are scattered in the Day of cloud and darkness. I shall bring them home, to their own Land and make them prosper. Isaiah 60:4, Jeremiah 31:1-6, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Amos 9:14

‘the Day of cloud and darkness’, is the Day of the Lord’s wrath, a CME sunstrike that will de-populate the entire holy Land area, also causing worldwide devastation. Isaiah 30:25-30

‘I have set every man against his neighbour’. This is the current situation in the Middle East.

‘Courage, do not lose heart’. This proves that we must pass through the terrible testing and trials of the forthcoming Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. A literal Day of fire from the sky, of earthquakes, storm winds and tsunamis. It will be a period of ‘cloud and darkness’, from the smoke and ash clouds that will envelope the earth. Zeph. 1:15, Matt.24:29,Joel 2:1-2

‘Peoples will come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord, in the new Temple’. From the context of this quote and from other prophesies, it is clear that this will happen before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial, worldwide reign. Ezekiel 43:4…the Shekinah Glory of God will come into the Temple by the East gate. And even though verse 23 mentions a Jew, as one who enjoys the Lord’s favour, we know from verse 13 and many other prophesies that Christians from every nation and language, Isaiah 56:1-8, will become citizens of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, the new nation formed after the judgement/punishment of fire has cleared and cleansed the entire Middle East. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18, Amos 1:2-15

 

[Douggg]

You are so plainly wrong, you should be embarrassed and repentant of your false teachings. But no, you just keep on; losing all credibility.

keras, I am not the one making stuff up that is not in text. You are creating your own scenario and are adding stuff to the text in order to support your scenario.

You also have doctrinal beliefs of no rapture to heaven, and no realizing of eternal life bodies until the Great White Throne judgment.

1 Thess 4:15-17,.....when the Lord comes.......the Lord Himself will descend from heaven.....then we who are still alive......
At the glorious Return...... after Jesus departs from heaven........those faithful Christians who kept the faith during the Great Trib......

You say that "then we who are still alive" will be taken by Jesus to Jerusalem (not heaven) with no change to eternal life bodies in spite of Paul says in 1Corinthians 15:51.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

the rest of #95 is unworthy of comment.
It has been good to converse with you, Douggg, but now that you display total intransigence and inability to comprehend the truths of Bible Prophecy, I may have to ignore you.

Putting me on your ignore list is probably the best resolution for you.

 

[keras]

You also have doctrinal beliefs of no rapture to heaven, and no realizing of eternal life bodies until the Great White Throne judgment.

Yes; those are my Bible based beliefs. I have posted, many times; the scriptures to support them.
You have no proof that God will take the Church to heaven, or of anyone becoming immortal before Eternity commences.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

At the GWT Judgment, never before.

Putting me on your ignore list is probably the best resolution for you.

I have never yet placed anyone on ignore.
Countering your claims, is a good way of presenting the truth to others. I have enjoyed it, like playing: Whack-a-Mole'. But it is getting tiresome and by now people will at least know about an alternative end time scenario.

 

[Timtofly]

They will not be resurrected in Adam's sin ridden flesh body, but in an incorruptible eternal life sin-free body. i.e. changed.

1Corinthians15:

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

----------------------------

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

If a Christian dies and is placed in a casket and buried, and if the rapture/resurrection takes place the next day - that casket is going to be emptied.

The resurrection happened when the soul left Adam's dead corruptible physical body. That body left in the casket returns to dust. It does not simply dissappear to change into something different.

Two different physical bodies: one from Adam, the other from God.

The "we" is the soul, not the physical body. The body is not changed. The soul changes the body like a physical garment.

Paul writes 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Corinthians 5 as a change from one form to another, but also makes a distinction that one is dissolved and passes away to give way to the other form. One physical body is passed on genetically from Adam. The other is eternal from God.

Yet theology teaches the church that Adam did not physically change from a body of life to a body of death. Adam went from life to death. That only happens by having a different body as in going from death to life. Humans can either have on a physical body of death or a physical body of life. One of corruption or one of incorruption.

Yet this is only the restoration of the physical body. This is not the restoration of the spirit. The first resurrection only deals with the physical restoration out of death.

The second death is the spiritual separation from God in the LOF. It does not mean one has to experience the second birth in order to experience the second death. The first resurrection as physical already removes one from the power of the second death. When a soul is placed in a permanent incorruptible physical body, one is no longer capable of disobedience towards God.

One may then ask how is disobedience possible in the millennium if no one is in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The difference is that those souls born in the millennium will have no idea what life is like in disobedience that resulted from Adam's disobedience. This is implied by Paul in Romans 5:12-14

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

Adam's sin was corporate to all his descendants. All would sin on their own since birth. Not Adam's sin, but sin that would condemn them on their own as individuals. The redemption of Jesus was corporate to all mankind, and would change back or restore all mankind who would choose that redemption.

Those born in the Millennium are not part of Adam's corporate death. They all have to choose on their own their own disobedience that causes death. Those born in the millennium are not grandfathered into eternal life. Nor were they ever subject to Adam's punishment of sin and death. They still have to choose between God and death. This time the choice is permanent into death. There is no return from disobedience in the millennium. They are not redeemed like we are, and they will have to stand as condemned at the GWT Judgment.

The Millennium is not the continuation of the church any more than the church was the continuation of the Law. Of course if no one accepts the different dispensations throughout history, they probably will not understand the Millennium. Most dispensationalist get it all wrong. They only argue for the sake of argument.