The Alternative to a Rapture

[Douggg]

We are told, very clearly that the only souls that Jesus will bring from heaven, will be the martyrs killed during the GT. Rev 20:4-6

At that time.

The rapture/resurrection event will be before the Great Tribulation begins.

 

[Douggg]

Those martyrs will be resurrected into their mortal bodies, as Creation is still subject to Death in the Millennium. But their second death has no power over them, as their names are in the Book of Life and they will receive immortality at the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15

No, it does not say "their" second death.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. kjv

Pease provide that verse from the 1989 REB translation you are using.

 

[keras]

The rapture/resurrection event will be before the Great Tribulation begins.

Sheer wishful thinking and never said to happen in the Bible.
The idea of a rapture/ resurrection to heaven happening at all, is wrong and it contradicts much scripture; of what God really does plan for our future.

No, it does not say "their" second death.

The REBible is the same. - the second death.
But obviously it refers to those martyrs; over them the second death......makes it clear who can and will die a second death. Verse 4b just says those martyrs will be ...brought back to life... Not given immortality as yet.

 

[oikonomia]

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The rapture properly taught means that believers are taken up to the clouds to meet Jesus there in the clouds. Where they will tabernacle with Jesus for 7 years while the tribulation is carried out. Then the believers will be brought back to earth after the tribulation is over to help out during the 1000 year rule of Jesus on the restored earth.

The rapture should never be taught that believers are taken up into heaven to live there.

The length of time of stay in heaven aside, we see those who made themselves ready to marry Christ come back
down as an accompanying army in Revelation 19.

It need not mean the entire universal church in that instance.
Like Gideon's small army of three hundred selected to accomplish something for the whole nation (to God's glory)
so the overcomers in Revelation.

Refer to Judges 7 as containing example to the new covenant church as many other accounts in the OT.

 

[Timtofly]

The rapture/resurrection event is for the dead in Christ and the living in Christ. Resurrection of the (bodies) of the dead in Christ, first. Then, the living in Christ are translated. Both caught up to meet the Lord in the air. And then go with the Lord to heaven. to always be in his presence.

Christians when they die, their souls go to heaven.

Veres 14 is about Jesus will bring the souls of them in heaven, who had died, with Him when He comes to resurrect their dead bodies which will have decayed, redeeming the remains into everlasting eternal life bodies and reunite those redeemed bodies with their souls that He brings from heaven.

Abraham's bosom is of former times, before Jesus's death and resurrection, and salvation in Christ.

Those currently in Paradise already have risen first. They were already risen in Paul's day. No one living on earth has ever prevented those who have physically died. They all have risen first. They all already have physical bodies. Why would God put souls back into Adam's dead corruptible flesh, after giving them His own permanent incorruptible physical body? 2 Corinthians 5:1.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

God's physical body is in Paradise. Adam's dead flesh returns to dust. Your old body is not changed. Your soul changes physical bodies like a set of clothing. They are not waiting for that body from God. They already have risen first. So Jesus brings them in their permanent incorruptible physical body.


Then as the soul leaves Adam's dead corruptible flesh in the rapture, those alive at the Second Coming will change bodies out of Adam's dead corruptible physical body into God's permanent incorruptible physical body. This happens in the sight of all on the earth at the 5th and 6th Seal. The entire church is glorified as one body when they meet in the air.


Then Jesus steps foot on the mount of Olives per Zechariah 14. That is when all the works of earth are burned up, and Jerusalem is geologically changed for the Millennium reign. All the earth is changed at that point with mountains and continents moving around. It seems that will also be the beginning of the LOF.

Then Jesus will sit on His glorious throne in a Temple in Jerusalem and the final harvest will start. The sheep and goats of Israel from all over the earth will be seperated. The sheep are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. The goats tossed into the LOF. All of humanity will be removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Not even the sheep remain on the earth during the final harvest.

Notice: Revelation 4:6

"And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind."

Later: Revelation 15:2

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."

This sea of glass is not Paradise. This sea of glass is where the sheep and wheat of the final harvest wait. A seperate waiting place than those waiting from the 5th Seal. In fact the church in Paradise is told to wait for those who are harvested and wait on the sea of glass. The tares are burned as part of the final harvest. The tares tossed into the LOF. The wheat joins the sheep on the sea of glass. That brings us to the time of the 7th Trumpet, when the vast majority of Adam's dead corruptible flesh has been removed from the earth. This is not the endurance of Adam's dead flesh. This is being removed through the baptism of fire, and the last removal is the winepress of God's wrath. None of Adam's dead corruptible flesh survives, nor enters the Millennial Kingdom. Only the sheep and wheat removed during the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders enter as the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom along with the sealed 144k.

There is no verse that states the 144k have to endure to make it to the end. They are redeemed, changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and impervious to sin and tribulation. They are not the firstfruits of the church, nor the church at all. They represent the Millennium while the final harvest is being gathered. And no one knows how long this time of GT will last.

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

The GT keeps getting shorter the longer we wait for the Second Coming. These 144k are not even said to overcome, nor endure, they just are.

The church is not mentioned after the 5th Seal, until the New Jerusalem comes down in the NHNE. Death is introduced in the 4th Seal. The 144k are sealed between the 6th and 7th Seal. The LOF is introduced in the 6th Seal. After the 7th Seal is removed from the Lamb's book of life, those on earth will be harvested. Some to the sea of glass, the rest to the LOF. That starts at the first Trumpet when names will start being removed from the Lamb's book of life, and those souls tossed into the LOF.

Of course Abraham's was prior to the Cross. It was emptied with a physical resurrection, not a rapture. The soul was given a permanent incorruptible physical body, at that point. That was the last day resurrection, those in the OT were waiting for. They all ascended Sunday morning with Jesus, after He talked to Mary. They ascended physically into Paradise, just like Jesus, and were presented then. Like Paul pointed out: Christ the firstfruits. Firstfruits being plural, the entire OT redeemed body out of Abraham's bosom as souls, into Paradise in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. All in Paradise meet us in their physical bodies they have had for hundreds of years in Paradise. Or even days and hours prior to the Second Coming. Those on earth meet those gathered from Paradise. Only those on earth need a change.

 

[keras]

There is shocking confusion and error about our role in the end times.

Our heritage; the promises of God:
Ephesians 1:11-14 In Christ we have been given our share in the heritage, as was decreed in His design …for it was God’s will that we, who were the first to set our hope on Jesus and to praise His glory.

And, in Christ, you Christians also, once you believed and received the Holy Spirit, the promise of the inheritance that will be ours, when God has redeemed all of His own, to His glory and praise.

Ephesians 3:6 Through the Gospel, the Gentiles are joint heirs with the Jews, part of the same body, sharers together in the promises made through Jesus.

Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit of God affirms that we are His children and if children, then also the heirs of God and fellow heirs with Jesus, but we must share His suffering if we are to share His glory.
Romans 8:19 The Created universe is waiting with eager expectation for God’s sons to be revealed.



Our greatest hope as born again Christians, is the promise of eternal life. John 3:16,Titus 3:5-7, +

But we also inherit the Land promises, Psalms 37:29, Ezekiel 36:8-12, Ezekiel 34:11-31 It is we Christians, from every tribe, race, nation and language, who are the vast multitude seen waving palm branches in Jerusalem. Revelation 7:9
That chapter sets an earthly scene and never changes location. Even the throne of God comes to the earth. Rev 7:14-17 parallels Rev 21:1-7

We are the ones who will have passed thru the great ordeal of the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster and have earned the white garments by standing firm in our faith. Revelation 7:14

Note: in Romans 8:19, that God’s true children are not yet made known, Jesus will come with His winnowing fork and sift the wheat from the chaff. Matthew 3:12

Those Christians who stood strong in their faith when He comes in fire, Luke 12:49, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, are the wheat that will be gathered into the granary of the holy Land. The chaff of the ungodly peoples will be as ashes under our feet. Isaiah 66:17, Malachi 4:3, 2 Peter 3:7

 

[Douggg]

Those currently in Paradise already have risen first. They were already risen in Paul's day. No one living on earth has ever prevented those who have physically died. They all have risen first. They all already have physical bodies. Why would God put souls back into Adam's dead corruptible flesh, after giving them His own permanent incorruptible physical body? 2 Corinthians 5:1.

They will not be resurrected in Adam's sin ridden flesh body, but in an incorruptible eternal life sin-free body. i.e. changed.

1Corinthians15:

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

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51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

If a Christian dies and is placed in a casket and buried, and if the rapture/resurrection takes place the next day - that casket is going to be emptied.

 

[keras]

If a Christian dies and is placed in a casket and buried, and if the rapture/resurrection takes place the next day - that casket is going to be emptied.

This idea is a deliberate and devious misapplication of scripture.
The proof that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a Prophecy about what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment, is how Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

Jesus did raise Lazarus after he had died, but back to his mortal body. As He will with the GT martyrs, Rev 20:4
NO ONE receives immortality until after the Millennium.

 

[Douggg]

This idea is a deliberate and devious misapplication of scripture.
The proof that 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a Prophecy about what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgment, is how Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4

No, it is not talking about the Great White Throne Judgement because it is talking only about Christians in 1Corinthians 15:51-53. Not about non-Christians.

Jesus did raise Lazarus after he had died, but back to his mortal body. As He will with the GT martyrs, Rev 20:4
NO ONE receives immortality until after the Millennium.

Lararus was not part of the rapture/resurrection event close at hand.

 

[keras]

No, it is not talking about the Great White Throne Judgement because it is talking only about Christians in 1Corinthians 15:51-53. Not about non-Christians.

I saw the dead, great and small, stand before the Throne and the Books were opened.....Revelation 20:12
Read your Bible Douggg and cease making wild and wrong assertions.

I just re-read 1 Cor 15:51-56 and it seems that you are attempting to place a gap between verses 53 and 54.
How then. do you explain that all this will happen at the sound of the Last Trumpet? ! Cor 15:52

Lararus was not part of the rapture/resurrection event close at hand.

Lazarus was the precursor and our example of how the dead martyrs will be raised. Revelation 20:4-6
David, Job, Lazarus and al the righteous people since Adam, ALL await the GWT Judgment, where they will receive immortality.

What is 'close at hand', is the great and terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, and if anyone thinks they can escape away from this test of our faith, are in for a very nasty shock. But those who do stand firm in their faith will receive amazing Blessings.

 

[Douggg]

I saw the dead, great and small, stand before the Throne and the Books were opened.....Revelation 20:12
Read your Bible Douggg and cease making wild and wrong assertions.

The Great White Throne Judgment will include non-Christians. 1Corinthians15:51-53 is Christians only.

Lazarus was the precursor and our example of how the dead martyrs will be raised. Revelation 20:4-6

Lazarus was not a martyr. Revelation 20:4-6 is about the great tribulation martyrs being resurrected - to reign with Christ for the 1000 years. So obviously they will not be resurrected into mortal bodies which don't last a 1000 years.

 

[keras]

The Great White Throne Judgment will include non-Christians. 1Corinthians15:51-53 is Christians only.

The GWT is for every person who has ever lived. The final Judgement and the wrap up of Gods 7000 year Plan for mankind.

What 1 Cor 15:51-52 describes, is for those whose names are found in the Book of Life.
We are told the fate of all whose names are not found in the Book of Life. Revelation 20:14-15

These facts prove that it will be the GWT Judgment, AFTER the Millennium, when Pauls Prophecy of people instantly receiving immortality, will take place. Any idea or theory which has humans becoming immortal before that, is wrong and cannot happen.

Lazarus was not a martyr.

I said Lazarus was just an example for us to take note of. Jesus made sure that Lazarus was well and truly dead, as the martyrs will be too.

So obviously they will not be resurrected into mortal bodies which don't last a 1000 year

This is where you display your extreme bias and willingness to ignore any scripture which doesn't fit your beliefs.
Those martyrs resurrected back into mortal bodies, ARE said to die again, Rev 20:6......the second death will have no power over them, as their names will be found in the Book of Life and THEN they will be made immortal.

 

[Douggg]

What 1 Cor 15:51-52 describes, is for those whose names are found in the Book of Life.
We are told the fate of all whose names are not found in the Book of Life. Revelation 20:14-15

No, the Great White Throne judgment is not part of the mystery that Paul was speaking of regarding the mystery of 1Cointhians15:51-53. verses 51-53 is for Christians only.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

kera, you are doing everything you can to do to deny that the rapture/resurrection event is for Christians only.

This is where you display your extreme bias and willingness to ignore any scripture which doesn't fit your beliefs.

keras, you are the one ignoring that the rapture/resurrection event in 1Thessalonians4:15-18 and 1Corinthians15:51-53 is for Christians only.

Those martyrs resurrected back into mortal bodies, ARE said to die again, Rev 20:6......the second death will have no power over them, as their names will be found in the Book of Life and THEN they will be made immortal.

It doesn't say the resurrected great tribulation matyrs die again, i.e. a second time, in Revelation 20:6. It is saying that they will have not be a part of the second death . The second death is the death of death itself and hell, verse 14. (I think you need take a re-read of what the second death is.)

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The second death is when death itself and hell are cast into the lake of fire.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The ones in verse 15 will be a part of the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The great tribulation martyrs comprise the first resurrection of the millennium. They don't die a second time, only to be resurrected a second time.

They rule with Jesus for a thousand years - which is not possible for mortal bodies to live a thousand years.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Lazarus was a proof of Jesus's power to raise the dead. But Lazarus did not live a thousand years, thereafter. Because Lazarus was not resurrected in an everlasting eternal life body.

 

[keras]

the Great White Throne judgment is not part of the mystery that Paul was speaking of regarding the mystery of 1Cointhians15:51-53. verses 51-53 is for Christians only.

The transformation into immortality is for all the righteous and faithful people who have ever lived. Thinking it could happen to some Christians before the GWT Judgment, is your mistake.
I have proved that this will only happen when Eternity commences; Revelation 21 to 22

The second death is when death itself and hell are cast into the lake of fire.

Yes, but I refer back to the example of Lazarus again, as you seem to want to ignore it. He died a second [natural] death, and as Martha said: I know Lazarus will rise again at the resurrection on the last Day... John 10:24
Maybe some of the GT martyrs will survive until the thousand years is over, I do not see that as likely. Isaiah 65:20

Dougg, you have strong beliefs, but to think that anyone can be changed into a Spirit being; become immortal, before God passes Judgment, as Daniel 7:9-10 describes, is illogical, untenable and impossible.

Try to remember that we are just humans and God is allowing us to choose our own destiny. Your choice simply is not possible and God may reprove those who want Him to remove them, instead of showing Him their faith and trust; through all that must happen.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, but I refer back to the example of Lazarus again, as you seem to want to ignore it. He died a second [natural] death, and as Martha said: I know Lazarus will rise again at the resurrection on the last Day... John 10:24

How did I ignore it when I wrote...

"Lazarus was a proof of Jesus's power to raise the dead. But Lazarus did not live a thousand years, thereafter. Because Lazarus was not resurrected in an everlasting eternal life body."

What Martha said in John 11:24 (you made a typo) was before Jesus raised Lazarus in John 11:25-44.

Maybe some of the GT martyrs will survive until the thousand years is over, I do not see that as likely. Isaiah 65:20

So you doubt what it says in the Revelation 20:4?

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

It does not say any of them die after being resurrected.

Dougg, you have strong beliefs, but to think that anyone can be changed into a Spirit being; become immortal, before God passes Judgment, as Daniel 7:9-10 describes, is illogical, untenable and impossible.

The term "Spirit being" is not in the text of bible.

SPIRIT BEING IN THE BIBLE

See 'Spirit being' instances in the King James Version (KJV).

www.kingjamesbibleonline.org

I did not say "Spirit being" at any time. Also, Daniel 7:9-10 does not address the rapture/resurrection of Christians.

" illogical, untenable and impossible" keras, you are being cynical instead rather than accepting what it says in Revelation 20:4.

Try to remember that we are just humans and God is allowing us to choose our own destiny.

God has given us free will, to a point, that will determine our destiny. I agree with the principle.

Your choice simply is not possible and God may reprove those who want Him to remove them, instead of showing Him their faith and trust; through all that must happen.

I choose to believe what is written in the text of Revelation 20:4. You choose to apply your own standards to the resurrected great tribulation martyrs and have them die a second time only to be resurrected a second time. And you are disregarding the text of Revelation 20:4 that they reign with Christ for 1000 years.

 

[keras]

What Martha said in John 11:24 (you made a typo) was before Jesus raised Lazarus in John 11:25-44.

That Lazarus will be again raised for him to stand before God at the GWT Judgment, has no bearing on his being raised by Jesus, during His earthly ministry.

So you doubt what it says in the Revelation 20:4?

The translators have made it seem that the GT martyrs will live for the whole thousand years. Good for them, but I have to doubt that all of them will. Accidents and disasters will still happen.
Not an issue to get het up about!

The term "Spirit being" is not in the text of bible.

How then, do you describe a person who lives in heaven with God?

, Daniel 7:9-10 does not address the rapture/resurrection of Christians.

That would be because such a thing never happens.

" illogical, untenable and impossible" keras, you are being cynical instead rather than accepting what it says in Revelation 20:4.

I applied those adjectives to people who have the incredible idea that humans can go to live in God's heaven.

They also apply to any ideas which have people becoming immortal before Gods Judgment and the Book of Life is opened.

 

[Douggg]

How then, do you describe a person who lives in heaven with God?

I would describe them as a glorified saint.

 

[keras]

I would describe them as a glorified saint.

So, in your beliefs, you have 3 types of beings:
1/ Common earthly humans. Max life span 120 years.
2/ Glorified Saints ????
3/ Immortals, those whose names will be found in the Book of Life, transformed as Paul prophesies in 1 Cor 15:50-56, into Eternal Spiritual beings.

Please explain when and why those 'glorified saints' become different from fleshly saints.

 

[Douggg]

So, in your beliefs, you have 3 types of beings:
1/ Common earthly humans. Max life span 120 years.
2/ Glorified Saints ????
3/ Immortals, those whose names will be found in the Book of Life, transformed as Paul prophesies in 1 Cor 15:50-56, into Eternal Spiritual beings.

Please explain when and why those 'glorified saints' become different from fleshly saints.

No, to your 3 types of human beings summation.

Instead, there are....
1. the unsaved.
2. the saved.
.....a. the saints.
.....b. the glorified saints - i.e them who have received their everlasting eternal life bodies.

 

[keras]

.b. the glorified saints - i.e them who have received their everlasting eternal life bodies.

Your opinions and guesswork.
No one receives Eternal life before the Book of Life is opened.
Any belief of immortality before the Eternal state, Revelation 21 to 22, is contrary to scripture and to commonsense logic.