The Alternative to a Rapture

[Douggg]

1st Thessalonians should be read in the same light as 1st Corinthians as the language used is very similar. The problem with trying to paint this as a secret rapture is the part that says SHOUT of the ARC ANGEL and the SOUND OF GOD'S TRUMPET. 1st Corinthians 15 is speaking about the same event.

Paul doesn't refer to the rapture/resurrection as a secret, but as a mystery. The timing of when it will take place exactly precisely to the day and hour could be considered secret, though.

Jesus will shout something like "Come forth" and the dead bodies of them in Christ will be resurrected. His voice of that of the archangel, the highest messenger of God. His voice will be like a mighty trumpet sounding.

Then to resurrected dead in Christ and to the living in Christ, Jesus will shout something like "Come up here". And together taken with Jesus to heaven.

1Thessalonains 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Douggg]

Matthew 24:15 as you interpret it, requires ignoring the context provided in the verses preceding verse 15. Verses 11-14 is talking about BELIEVERS, FOLLOWERS of Messiah. You then ram verse 15 as magically speaking about non-believing Jews with absolutely 0 support for this view.

Verses 11-14 covers a broad expanse of time. And it does talk about believers in Jesus during that time.

In verse 14, after that broad expanse of time that the gospel of the kingdom has been preached to all the world - then the end shall come.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

That is why in Matthew 24:15, Jesus begins talking about when abomination of desolation will be setup, standing in the holy place, as foretold to Daniel the prophet (in Daniel 12:11-12).

Daniel 12 is about what will happen to the Jews, Daniel's people, at the time of end . Revelation 12:6-17 is also about what will happen to Daniel's people the Jews at the time of the end.

The 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 is time of the end. In Daniel 9:24, the 70 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people the Jews and Jerusalem

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The Abomination of Desolation in Daniel 12:11-12 will be setup in the holy place - the temple mount, 1335 days before Jesus returns.

The Jews will have turned to Jesus right before then. The turn to Jesus, because of the testimony of the two witnesses in Jerusalem, who will be warning them that their peceived messiah the Antichrist is not the true messiah, but Jesus is. And the two witnesses will be warning them that their perceived messiah is going to betray them.

That betrayal when it happens is the transgression of desolation (ToD) act by the Antichrist in 2Thessalonians2:4. The Jews will be mortified by it. And the Jews will realize that the two witnesses were right, and the Jews will turn to Jesus.

The timeline of events is on this chart I made.

 

[BukiRob]

Paul doesn't refer to the rapture/resurrection as a secret, but as a mystery. The timing of when it will take place exactly precisely to the day and hour could be considered secret, though.

Jesus will shout something like "Come forth" and the dead bodies of them in Christ will be resurrected. His voice of that of the archangel, the highest messenger of God. His voice will be like a mighty trumpet sounding.

Then to resurrected dead in Christ and to the living in Christ, Jesus will shout something like "Come up here". And together taken with Jesus to heaven.

1Thessalonains 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I will stick with what the text says. It doesn't say Yeshua's voice it says the TRUMPET OF GOD.

 

[BukiRob]

Verses 11-14 covers a broad expanse of time. And it does talk about believers in Jesus during that time.

In verse 14, after that broad expanse of time that the gospel of the kingdom has been preached to all the world - then the end shall come.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

That is why in Matthew 24:15, Jesus begins talking about when abomination of desolation will be setup, standing in the holy place, as foretold to Daniel the prophet (in Daniel 12:11-12).

Daniel 12 is about what will happen to the Jews, Daniel's people, at the time of end . Revelation 12:6-17 is also about what will happen to Daniel's people the Jews at the time of the end.

The 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 is time of the end. In Daniel 9:24, the 70 weeks are determined upon Daniel's people the Jews and Jerusalem

--------------------------------------------------------------------
The Abomination of Desolation in Daniel 12:11-12 will be setup in the holy place - the temple mount, 1335 days before Jesus returns.

The Jews will have turned to Jesus right before then. The turn to Jesus, because of the testimony of the two witnesses in Jerusalem, who will be warning them that their peceived messiah the Antichrist is not the true messiah, but Jesus is. And the two witnesses will be warning them that their perceived messiah is going to betray them.

That betrayal when it happens is the transgression of desolation (ToD) act by the Antichrist in 2Thessalonians2:4. The Jews will be mortified by it. And the Jews will realize that the two witnesses were right, and the Jews will turn to Jesus.

The timeline of events is on this chart I made.


View attachment 340567

With due respect, I don't agree with your timeline. The last Trumpet is when Yeshua returns and ends the Tribulation.

 

[d taylor]

Where does it say that? Not in Matthew 24, not in 1st Corinthians or 2 Thessalonians. As far as I know, those are the main pillars of those doctrines. Every one of those chapters speaks in terms of "THE LAST TRUMPET" which is 100% an indication that it is Messiah's return that ENDS the Tribulation/.

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I am not going to debate this back and forth, if you want to read these articles feel free to.

The Rapture in Matthew 24? Nine Proofs – Grace Evangelical Society

Amazon.com

https://faithalone.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Hart-Pretrib-Mt-24-Article-1-edited.pdf

https://faithalone.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Hart.pdf

https://faithalone.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Hart.pdf

 

[keras]

Many posts on this thread, but none properly address the OP.
The alternative to the theory of a rapture to heaven, is that we stay on the earth and fulfil the many Prophesies which tell how the Lord will bless His people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the Holy Land. Isaiah 65:18-25

Isn't that what God has wanted all along? His peoples in His Land, being His witnesses and His Light to the nations. It IS what will happen and the incredible belief of a rapture removal just amounts to a failure of Gods desired outcome.
If God was going to rapture remove His people, then why is there so much prophesied to happen after it? Why not just wipe out all the ungodly heathens, including the 'lukewarm' Christians, and just be done with it.

No; the idea that some will be taken to live in God's heaven, is quite preposterous. We all must face trials and testing to be considered worthy to go with Jesus into the Millennium. Those who wish to avoid the test are not Gods children, Hebrews 12:7-8

 

[BukiRob]

-​

I am not going to debate this back and forth, if you want to read these articles feel free to.

The Rapture in Matthew 24? Nine Proofs – Grace Evangelical Society

Amazon.com

https://faithalone.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/Hart-Pretrib-Mt-24-Article-1-edited.pdf

https://faithalone.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Hart.pdf

https://faithalone.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Hart.pdf

appeal to "authority" argument...

 

[joan1431]

I think christians will have to suffer through the tribulations. Otherwise what would be the point of the beast system. My argument is in the codex sintiucus theres no rapture.The idea came from William Eugene Blackstone . This idea was further popularized by John Nelson Darby, an Irish evangelist. I leave you with this question to ponder . Did Joan of Arc not suffer for her beliefs?

 

[keras]

Isaiah 43:15-28 Israel: I am the Lord, your Holy One, your Creator and your King. I am the One who opened a path through the sea and drew the Egyptians to their destruction. Exodus 14:28

Now, you must stop thinking about past events, for I am about to do something new, in an instant it will happen – can you perceive it? Even through the wilderness, I shall make a way, it will be a highway in the barren desert. The wild beasts and birds will honour Me, for I will provide water: rivers in the dry wasteland. My chosen people, the people that I have formed for Myself, will satisfy their thirst and will proclaim My Glory. Isaiah 66:18-21

My chosen people: Every faithful Christian, from every tribe, race, nation and language. John 15:14-16, 1 Peter 2:9-10

‘in an instant it will happen’. This says how the forthcoming Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath will occur. It is the repeatedly prophesied worldwide judgement and punishment by fire, in the form of a Coronal Mass Ejection sun explosion. Psalms 11:4-6, Isaiah 29:5-6, Jeremiah 6:26

‘Ask Me to appear’. The Lord will become known to his people, in the same manner as during the first Exodus, that is: not physically. It isn’t until the Return of the Lord Jesus, to happen much later, that ‘all the world will see Him’. Ezekiel 20:38, 2 Thessalonians 1:10, Isaiah 60:1-3, Revelation 14:1

‘a highway back to their heritage’. The Lord is waiting to show His favour to His people: now every faithful Christian. Galatians 3:26-29 & 6:14-16

After the terrible devastation of the Lord’s Day of wrath that will change the world, all the Lord’s righteous Christian people will travel to the Middle East and will gather with great joy in the holy Land. Isaiah 35:8-10, Isaiah 58:11, Isaiah 42:6, Isaiah 30:29, 1 Corinthians 10:4, Isaiah 60:8-9

 

[joan1431]

All based on modern bibles.

 

[keras]

All based on modern bibles.

Which are based on far more ancient texts that the KJV, with its outdated language and imposed Church doctrines.

 

[joan1431]

Great changes occurred in 13th century BC.

Which are based on far more ancient texts that the KJV, with its outdated language and imposed Church doctrines.

 

[joan1431]

Please send me links to your sources. Ive been studying the codex sintiucus. Along with historical records in history etc.

 

[keras]

Please send me links to your sources. Ive been studying the codex sintiucus. Along with historical records in history etc.

I am not a translator. With the modern Bibles, they use all the ancient sources they can get, including the Dead sea scrolls.
But I am a history buff and I know most prophecy remains unfulfilled.

 

[joan1431]

Many posts on this thread, but none properly address the OP.
The alternative to the theory of a rapture to heaven, is that we stay on the earth and fulfil the many Prophesies which tell how the Lord will bless His people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the Holy Land. Isaiah 65:18-25

Isn't that what God has wanted all along? His peoples in His Land, being His witnesses and His Light to the nations. It IS what will happen and the incredible belief of a rapture removal just amounts to a failure of Gods desired outcome.
If God was going to rapture remove His people, then why is there so much prophesied to happen after it? Why not just wipe out all the ungodly heathens, including the 'lukewarm' Christians, and just be done with it.

No; the idea that some will be taken to live in God's heaven, is quite preposterous. We all must face trials and testing to be considered worthy to go with Jesus into the Millennium. Those who wish to avoid the test are not Gods children, Hebrews 12:7-8

I agree with you however i beky

I am not a translator. With the modern Bibles, they use all the ancient sources they can get, including the Dead sea scrolls.
But I am a history buff and I know most prophecy remains unfulfille

I am not a translator. With the modern Bibles, they use all the ancient sources they can get, including the Dead sea scrolls.
But I am a history buff and I know most prophecy remains unfulfilled.

 

[joan1431]

I agree with you however i beky

Im a history buff as well. I find proof that 2 seals have been broken. Not to mention many are having prophetic dreams . The signs of the times are all around us. I converse often with my friend who is of another religion. Even they believe these are the end of days. I believe many Bibles have been twisted to confuse the masses. We follow no man or church only God now in our home. Its 4:38 am here in America. I see you are in New Zealand correct?

 

[keras]

I see you are in New Zealand correct?

Yes I live in a beautiful and pleasant country. A place that many other people think is a safe haven, but when the Lord sends His fiery wrath, we will be badly affected, along with all the rest of the world. We were a Christian nation, now sadly backslidden.
Check out my website; logostelos.info for more articles on the Prophetic Word.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus will shout something like "Come forth" and the dead bodies of them in Christ will be resurrected. His voice of that of the archangel, the highest messenger of God. His voice will be like a mighty trumpet sounding.

Then to resurrected dead in Christ and to the living in Christ, Jesus will shout something like "Come up here". And together taken with Jesus to heaven.

Because Paul says that those already in heaven come with Jesus. They are not in the ground on the earth.

What verse in Scripture says those in Christ are still under the earth in Abraham's bosom?

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

I Thessalonians 4:14

 

[Douggg]

Because Paul says that those already in heaven come with Jesus. They are not in the ground on the earth.

What verse in Scripture says those in Christ are still under the earth in Abraham's bosom?

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

I Thessalonians 4:14

The rapture/resurrection event is for the dead in Christ and the living in Christ. Resurrection of the (bodies) of the dead in Christ, first. Then, the living in Christ are translated. Both caught up to meet the Lord in the air. And then go with the Lord to heaven. to always be in his presence.

Christians when they die, their souls go to heaven.

Veres 14 is about Jesus will bring the souls of them in heaven, who had died, with Him when He comes to resurrect their dead bodies which will have decayed, redeeming the remains into everlasting eternal life bodies and reunite those redeemed bodies with their souls that He brings from heaven.

Abraham's bosom is of former times, before Jesus's death and resurrection, and salvation in Christ.

 

[keras]

The rapture/resurrection event is for the dead in Christ and the living in Christ. Resurrection of the (bodies) of the dead in Christ, first. Then, the living in Christ are translated. Both caught up to meet the Lord in the air. And then go with the Lord to heaven. to always be in his presence.

You just love to tell God what you want Him to do.

We are told, very clearly that the only souls that Jesus will bring from heaven, will be the martyrs killed during the GT. Rev 20:4-6
Those martyrs will be resurrected into their mortal bodies, as Creation is still subject to Death in the Millennium. But their second death has no power over them, as their names are in the Book of Life and they will receive immortality at the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15

When Jesus Returns, His Presence from then and into Eternity, is on earth. God and heaven come to the new earth forever. Revelation 21:1-7

You must get these things right and cease teaching wrong theories.