~That which is perfect~

[Frogster]

Not at all. There are many languages out there.

Tongues = Languages

Languages have not ceased.

so then you have no problem with thinking that 1 cor 14, applies today?

 

[Frogster]

And to edify (build up) is a good thing and something we're called to do.
If i am not edified in my spirit i am weak and carnal, like these mockers below:

But, beloved, remember you the words which were spoken before
of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time,
who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Contrast now:
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
And of some have compassion, making a difference...

Good post.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

when paul said he prays in tongues, more than pall, does the text indicate, it was only in meetings?

What text are you talking 'bout?

Whats 'more than pall'?

And what do you mean by 'tongues'? Do you mean foreign languages or do you mean kundalini style gibberwokky?

 

[Frogster]

Frog:

THE MIRACLE of Pentecost was like a reversal of Babel (where God confused the languages).

the disciples were UNLEARNED.

their being miraculously endowed with the ability to speak the WONDERFUL WORKS OF GOD in the languages of all the men from around the known world, even down to theri particular dialects was A SIGN.

that gift remained until people were able to teach each other the languages.

you can not separate the gift of interpretation rom the PREVIOUS UNLEARNED BUT KNOWN LANGUAGES.

if you have people standing up in church speaking gibberish, then another stands up pretending to "interpret", there's something very very wrong.

and if tose one who claim to "interpret', KNOW they are making it up. they are under strong delusion.

All languages are known somewhere, or it would not be called a language.

Same greek for pentecost, as well as here..and no mention of interpretation, was there?

Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.


tongues
New Testament Greek Definition:
1100 glossa {gloce-sah'}
of uncertain affinity; TDNT - 1:719,123; n f
AV - tongue 50; 50
1) the tongue, a member of the body, an organ of speech
2) a tongue
1a) the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct
from that of other nations


same as..
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

so then you have no problem with thinking that 1 cor 14, applies today?

No problem at all Frogman.

It's all talking about foreign languages or using EARTHLY KNOWN words that are not understood by the people present.

 

[Frogster]

What text are you talking 'bout?

Whats 'more than pall'?

And what do you mean by 'tongues'? Do you mean foreign languages or do you mean kundalini style gibberwokky?

Same greek at Pent, for tongues, as acts 19...Time for u to stop throwing out the baby, with the bath water.


1 Corinthians 14:18
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

 

[child of Jesus]

so then you have no problem with thinking that 1 cor 14, applies today?

nope
languages haven't ceased. i speak English and some French.

but i don't attempt to witness in French

the miracle was that for the birth of the church and the going forth of the Gospel, PREVIOUSLY UNLEARNED LANGUAGES were needed, and they were one of the signs that followed the disciples.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Is this the kind of lunacy that you guys are talking about when you mention 'tongues'?

YouTube - Tongues

These guys can barely keep a straight face while they're churning this stuff out. It's a comedy act. And this stuff passes for Holy? And people feel they need to imitate it? God help us.

 

[child of Jesus]

And to edify (build up) is a good thing and something we're called to do.
If i am not edified in my spirit i am weak and carnal, like these mockers below:

But, beloved, remember you the words which were spoken before
of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time,
who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Contrast now:
But you, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.
And of some have compassion, making a difference...

misuse of both passages.
sensual are those who like the sensual "manifestations" that feed the flesh (whether sinful or thinking they are pleasing God....don't pagans enjoy sensual activity while supposedly worshipping?)

praying in the Holy Ghost....lol.....well, if you have been taught that's what that means, what can anyone (including Scripture say to change that)?

please, i would like to know which church you attended when you first experienced the manifestations.

no need to not say, is there?

 

[sunlover1]

Originally Posted by sunlover1

Not at all.
Paul is not speaking of "learned things" He is speaking of "Spiritual gifts"
This is clear from the get go.
Learning languages is no "Sign"Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers


Exactly. Because this form of tongues is "speaking to God": (which is a 'good' thing)
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.
​

Paul is not speaking of "learned things" He is speaking of "Spiritual gifts"
This is clear from the get go.

stop making stuff up to justify UNBIBLICAL activity.

Spiritual Gifts
(BEGINNING of the chapter)

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren,
I would not have you ignorant.

He knew it would be misunderstood.

 

[child of Jesus]

Is this the kind of lunacy that you guys are talking about when you mention 'tongues'?

YouTube - Tongues

These guys can barely keep a straight face while they're churning this stuff out. It's a comedy act. And this stuff passes for Holy? And people feel they need to imitate it? God help us.

Kenneth Copeland and Rodney Howard-Browne.

are these men ok'ed by the Pentecostals? or are they considered heretics, and if yes, why?

 

[child of Jesus]

THIRD WAVE EXPOSED

 

[child of Jesus]

Combating Charismatic Theology​

Arming you with the tools to unmask the dangerous deception of experience-driven theology.​

Combating Charismatic Theology -- Phil Johnson

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Paul is not speaking of "learned things" He is speaking of "Spiritual gifts"
This is clear from the get go.

stop making stuff up to justify UNBIBLICAL activity.

Learning languages is no "Sign"Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers

Pentecostals and Charismatics NEVER QUITE GET AROUND TO READING THE ENTIRE PASSAGE IN CONTEXT.

i know you won't believe it, because you have too much invested in your denomination (ever wonder why no other denominations do that stuff?)

ACTS 2 AT PENTECOST AFTER THE HOLY SPIRIT GAVE THE DISCIPLES THE MIRACULOUS ABILITY TO SPEAK IN LANGUAGES THEY HADN'T KNOWN PREVIOULY: WHY?

you already answered: are a sign,

AS A SIGN TO ALL THE JEWS FROM ALL OVER THE KNOWN WORLD WHO HAD COME TO JERUSALEM:


5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

WOW! HOW CAN IT BE THAT THESE UNLEARNED GALILAEANS CAN SUDDENLY SPEAK TO US IN OUR MANY MANY MANY LANGUAGES FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, AND EVEN IN OUR PARTICULAR DIALECTS?

8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

were the devout jews born speaking gibberish? is that why they understood? was that THE MIRACLE?

9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians,

we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.


what did they hear spoken in THEIR NATIVE LANGUAGES?

THE WONDERFUL WORKS OF GOD.

THE MYSTERIES OF GOD.

THE GOOD NEWS.

CHRIST.

Exactly. Because this form of tongues is "speaking to God": (which is a 'good' thing)

stop making things up to justify unbiblical practices.

For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God.

if the Holy Spirit gifted a disciple with the previously unlearned LANGUAGE OF CHINESE and he speaks Chinese in church AT CORINTH to SHOW OFF, he's not edifying anyone, but is understood by God.

but you wont' believe any of this anyways, because you have too much invested in your unbiblical practices.

if you have the courage, RESEARCH the Pentecostal Movement.


1 Corinthians 14:2

Barne's
For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue - This verse is designed to show that the faculty of speaking intelligibly, and to the edification of the church, is of more value than the power of speaking a foreign language. The reason is, that however valuable may be the endowment in itself, and however important the truth which he may utter, yet it is as if he spoke to God only. No one could understand him.

But unto God - It is as if he spoke to God. No one could understand him but God. This must evidently refer to the addresses "in the church," when Christians only were present, or when those only were present who spoke the same language, and who were unacquainted with foreign tongues. Paul says that "there" that faculty would be valueless compared with the power of speaking in a manner that should edify the church. He did not undervalue the power of speaking foreign languages when foreigners were present, or when they went to preach to foreigners; see 1 Corinthians 14:22. It was only when it was needless, when all present spoke one language, that he speaks of it as of comparatively little value.


Gill's

for no man understandeth him: or "heareth him": that is, hears him, so as to understand him; he may hear a sound, but he cannot tell the meaning of it, and so it is of no use and advantage to him:
howbeit in the Spirit he speaketh mysteries; though under the influence and by the extraordinary gift of the Spirit he has, and to his own Spirit and understanding, and with great affection and devotion within himself, he speaks of the deep things of God, and the mysteries of his grace, the most glorious truths of the Gospel, yet the meaning of his voice and words not being known, he is a barbarian to them that hear him; and though what he delivers are truths of the greatest importance, they are a mere jargon to others, being unintelligible.

Matthew Henry
He goes on to show them how unprofitable the speaking of foreign languages is, and useless to the church; it is like piping in one tone, like sounding a trumpet without any certain note, like talking gibberish; whereas gifts should be used for the good of the church (v. 6-14).

He that spoke with tongues must wholly speak between God and himself; for, whatever mysteries might be communicated in his language, none of his own countrymen could understand them, because they did not understand the language, v. 2. Note, What cannot be understood can never edify. No advantage can be reaped from the most excellent discourses, if delivered in unintelligible language, such as the audience can neither speak nor understand: but he that prophesies speaks to the advantage of his hearers; they may profit by his gift

Note, It should be the concern of such as pray in public to pray intelligibly, not in a foreign language, nor in a language that, if it be not foreign, is above the level of his audience. Language that is most obvious and easy to be understood is the most proper for public devotion and other religious exercises.

He applies to the matter in hand, that, if they did speak a foreign language, they should beg of God the gift of interpreting it, v. 13. That these were different gifts, see ch. 12:10.

Those might speak and understand a foreign language who could not readily translate it into their own: and yet was this necessary to the church's edification; for the church must understand, that it might be edified, which yet it could not do till the foreign language was translated into its own

1. Tongues are understood by oudeis . .. NO ONE . . . that is what the text SAYS
2. If tongues are ONLY a sign for the unbeliever, then pray tell, WHY ARE THEY A SIGN FOR BELIEVERS IN ACTS 10 AND 19?
3. In Acts 2, the ioudian is ORIGINAL . . . IOW, you have JUDEANS surprised to hear JUDEANS speaking in JUDEAN . . . which throwa a wrench in the whole "tongues are just foreign languages" concept.
4. Tongues REQUIRE a supernatural GIFT in the gift of INTERPRETATION of tongues . . . not something that is indicative of a foreign language.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

If you are implying that the Body of Christ is what is referred to, I would say that we have regressed since NT Biblical times, not become perfect. I don't see perfection on the horizon, do you? One read through of this forum should be enough to prove my point.

I don't see perfection on the horizon, do you?

Sure, when we see Him we will be like Him. He is indeed perfect . . . and at His return for His we will be given the incorruptible.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I agree with you that it's not Scripture. I believe John MacArthur is of this opinion -- one of a few things we disagree on.

So if we agree it's not Holy Scripture and it's not the Body of Christ, it must mean the second coming of Jesus Christ or possibly the millennial kingdom where Jesus reigns. This is not a subject I've spent any time on, so nobody should accept what I've written without their own, in-depth study.

Actually I think Johnny Mac believes it is the perfect STATE . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Again, Paul knows that HE is not perfect. But he is MADE perfect by being cloaked in that which IS perfect which is Christs blood. His totally sinless sacrifice. His love perfects us in the sight of God, even though we are sinners.



One more time. Humans are not perfect. We know this. We are made righteous and clean in Christs perfect love. And we have the perfect law of liberty, the tabernacle...recorded in God's true and Holy perfect scripture to cling to which keeps us straight in His perfect love.

I can't believe you guys are just dismissing all these 'perfect' quotes without even an acknowledgement that, hey...ya know....theres a case here for 'that which is perfect' has come. Of course, I understand why. This is a very edgey subject for some people who have so much invested.



Boy, is it a big deal I dont include the book names? I just copy and paste straight from my PDF KJV. It's an extra job to write in the book name. You can search the verse online easy enough to find the book no?

I think ur talkin two different categories. Perfection of the sacrifice applied to us, AWESOME, and the perfection of the redeemed BODY whereby the corruptible becomes incorruptible . . . two different realms.

If the prior concept of perfect is what Paul is talking about, in the 1 Cor 13 passage, then gifts would never even EXIST. Because we are perfect the moment we convert and the perfect sacrifice is applied to us. Perfection comes at the moment of conversion and then gifts never even come into the picture.

Obviously this ISNT what Paul is talking about

 

[child of Jesus]

1. Tongues are understood by oudeis . .. NO ONE . . . that is what the text SAYS
2. If tongues are ONLY a sign for the unbeliever, then pray tell, WHY ARE THEY A SIGN FOR BELIEVERS IN ACTS 10 AND 19?
3. In Acts 2, the ioudian is ORIGINAL . . . IOW, you have JUDEANS surprised to hear JUDEANS speaking in JUDEAN . . . which throwa a wrench in the whole "tongues are just foreign languages" concept.
4. Tongues REQUIRE a supernatural GIFT in the gift of INTERPRETATION of tongues . . . not something that is indicative of a foreign language.

again....man's interpretation to suit his peculiar religion.

who says they were speaking JUDEAN????
they were surprised to hear them speak OTHER LANGUAGES.

but if you like that stuff you've involved in, have at it.

 

[child of Jesus]

I think ur talkin two different categories. Perfection of the sacrifice applied to us, AWESOME, and the perfection of the redeemed BODY whereby the corruptible becomes incorruptible . . . two different realms.

If the prior concept of perfect is what Paul is talking about, in the 1 Cor 13 passage, then gifts would never even EXIST. Because we are perfect the moment we convert and the perfect sacrifice is applied to us. Perfection comes at the moment of conversion and then gifts never even come into the picture.

Obviously this ISNT what Paul is talking about

and Paul was NEVER talking about these "so-called gifts" the modern charismatics claim to possess.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

whether you agree with Doc's understanding "of that which is Perfect' or not, you are in error as well.

IF YOU KNOW PAUL'S CITIZENSHIP AND SCHOLARSHIP, HIS ABILITY TO SPEAK MULTIPLE LANGUAGES....you would know what he meant by this.

if you are trying to justify Glossolalia, please stop embarassing Christendom. if you practice this, you UNDOUBTEDLY have been influenced by Pentecostalism (NEW, MODERN, AN ABERRATION) or Charismania.
no one in orthodoxy accepts this nonsense.



Glossolalia is believed by many Christians to have come into the Christian experience in the 1st century on the day of Pentecost after the Crucifixion of Jesus when "... there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire,.." divided unto all of the individuals in the "upper room". They were said to speak in "other tongues as the spirit gave them utterance" (according to Acts, Ch. 2) (The book of Acts, written by the same author as the Gospel of Luke, is found in the New Testament immediately after the Gospel of John and is considered to be the story of the very early church). It should be noted, however, that Acts records that everyone in a nearby crowd was able to understand what the Apostles were saying at Pentecost, whereas glossolalia as usually practised today is unintelligible to everybody including the speaker (1 Cor 14:2; 14:13-18).

if you have the courage to do so, why not read the testimonies of those who have been delivered from this stuff? you'll find they BELIEVED IT TO BE BIBLICAL ALSO...until they discovered the truth.

SOO wrong on soo many levels.

MANY in orthodoxy practice this.

It is not a matter of orthodoxy at all.

The greek of Acts 2 makes it PAINFULLY clear that NOT everybody understood it because there was a WHOLE group who said "THEY ARE DRUNK" AND the usage of plural and sing pronouns paints a different picture.

Appeal to people who have been delivered ONLY proves that SOME is errant, upon which we agree, BUT NOT THAT ALL ARE ERRANT. That is a false form of logic called the incomplete comparison, another called cherry picking, another called the composition fallacy (where truths about the whole are made authoritatively based on parts), another called the spot-light fallacy and there are a few others also . . .