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I think ur talkin two different categories. Perfection of the sacrifice applied to us, AWESOME, and the perfection of the redeemed BODY whereby the corruptible becomes incorruptible . . . two different realms.
If the prior concept of perfect is what Paul is talking about, in the 1 Cor 13 passage, then gifts would never even EXIST. Because we are perfect the moment we convert and the perfect sacrifice is applied to us. Perfection comes at the moment of conversion and then gifts never even come into the picture.
and Paul was NEVER talking about these "so-called gifts" the modern charismatics claim to possess.
SOO wrong on soo many levels.
MANY in orthodoxy practice this.
It is not a matter of orthodoxy at all.
WHY ARE JUDEANS SURPRISED TO HEAR OTHER JUDEANS SPEAKING IN JUDEAN?
your wrong, I posted the greek, same as pent, and acts 19, where they spoke in tongues.
Show me the demarcation line, of when they ceased? gimmie scripture already...
True, which is how it can be a fulfillment of Joel
Further, I would call all these gifts "prophetic" in the sense that they are manifestations of the partial to which the fulfillment will be when Jesus comes. The gifts are MEANT to anticipate the return of Christ. In this sense, they are all "prophetic."
Oh no...I get the two levels...I just see things a bit differently than you do...because we are living, breathing, human beings, we are sinful...we do not reach perfection until the Day of Resurrection...
You quoted Hebrews...let's see what the author said just a couple of chapters later...
Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
Strive for holiness? Would you not say that holiness is perfection? I would...which shows that we are not yet perfect.
This is one of many instances where we're told to strive for holiness...keep the faith, etc...
I'll believe scripture too.
You apparently don't know the history of Pentecostalism if you think Kenneth Copeland is a pioneer...methinks his daddy was still in diapers around that time...
I don't know about the banhammer...but, I have to wonder what nonbelievers think when they read a thread like this where Christian brethren are at each other's throats...it's no wonder so many are turned off by the idea of church.
same mo..you're just proving what most know, there are fakes, and false apostles..WE KNOW THAT..
Paul dealt with false apostles in Corinth, who did miracles..
But how does that mean that the manifestations are over now?
Stop pointing out the extreme looney people, to try to prove a doctrine, that does not exist in scripture. There are bad drivers, but the rest still have a liscense!
Again..sorry to repeat, but lets see the verses to show the manifestations are over, not just verses about fakes! Really, God bless, but you and strangelove need a new mo already..paaaaleeease!
Thanks.Said with all due respect.
Child of Jesus, is teaching over? Is serving over? Seems like you press the gifts word too much, Paul uses it generally, unless you think serving is over. Note the prophecy word right in there.
Rom 12:4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;
I've been studying to be a minister through my denomination...there's a book I had to read called 2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity...there are folks mentioned in the book that the early church declared to be heretics...Montanists, for one...I don't know that they were ever stoned or anything like that though...
Then with the Pentecostal Movement in the early 1900s...it was never the intent of any of the "Pentecostal Pioneers" to start their own denominations...but the established churches that these folks were part of would not accept this new movement of the Spirit...yet sixty years later the mainstream denominations would accept it...with the birth of the Charismatic Movement in an Episcopal Church...although it wasn't a warm reception at the beginning...
Cessationists used to be the majority...but there are now somewhere in the neighborhood of 750 million Christians that consider themselves to be either Pentecostal or Charismatic...with the majority of these folks in mainstream Protestant churches and the RCC...others wouldn't classify themselves as Cessationist, as they're open to the Spiritual Gifts, but have never experienced them...so I think it's safe to say that cessationism is a minority view within Christianity now.
Hmmm...
Act 2:17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
I know that, it says tongues plural..languages..
Do you agree with paul that we are in Abraham?
They had the Spirit, with miracles..
Gal 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith
It happened because of the promise of the Spirit.
14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
Ok, so how do you seperate the manifestations of the Spirit, from the children of Abe, as per the Galatians?
It says in 3:29, we are his offspring. That is still true today. Yes?
wow. you have a boatload of arguments
How bout this one..
Tongues is for giving thanks to God (V 17)
And for blessing (V 16)
And for SINGING! (V 15)
And for PRAYING (V 14)
And NO one is taught by tongues (V 19)
Proving it wasn't just another language
Excellent post sis!
i guess we will have to wait and see, how they seperate the Spirit, the miracles, and Abe.
Yes some discussion will be interesting.
Although we're not doing bad by ourselves
Why are they surprised?? Are you kiddin' me? THERES A MIRACLE GOING ON!!
Wouldn't you be surprised if a group of men were preaching at a dozen different nationalities and they ALL understood what they were saying....at the same time?
Seriously, what are you thinking?
because there was a WHOLE group who said "THEY ARE DRUNK" AND the usage of plural and sing pronouns paints a different picture.
this is often ued as a justification by the charismatics for their "drunk in the spirit" manifestations.
the MANY that didn't understand, as with too many today WERE NOT GIVEN EARS TO HEAR.
Appeal to people who have been delivered ONLY proves that SOME is errant, upon which we agree, BUT NOT THAT ALL ARE ERRANT.
at least we agree there are counterfeits.
shouldn't EVERYONE involved in this movement take it is a sign that there are dangers? and that satan is able to counterfeit moves of God?
i'd be curious to know which renowned Charismatics you believe are genuine.
That is a false form of logic called the incomplete comparison, another called cherry picking, another called the composition fallacy (where truths about the whole are made authoritatively based on parts), another called the spot-light fallacy and there are a few others also .
SEMANTICS (fancy semantics i might add...but semantics just obscures the truth). if you like that stuff, be my guest.
mainstream Christianity has always considered this stuff to be aberrations, whether you want to admit it or not.
i can provide the history of the Pentecostal Movement (not pretty)...but if you don't understand Scripture and what is being described, and what REALLY happened at Pentecost, you won't read what i post.
The Holy Spirit is NOT the authour of confusion; nor does He knock people over backwards (when the angels or The angel of The Lord appear, people fall ON THEIR FACES in fear, pass out in terror and lay there in a coma until they are touched and calmed); nor does He provide extra-biblical revelation from the lips of certain congregational members (usually in relation to THEIR LIVES, THEIR CHURCH, THEIR FUTURES)....."Thus saith the lord" is a sacred prophetic formula uttered by the prophets of the days past.....in these last days, God SPEAKS TO US THROUGH HIS SON.
Written Word quickened by The Spirit....SOLA SCRIPTURA.
cherry picking? nope.
i think the whole thing is a delusion. sorry if that offends you.
please list examples from Historic Christianity (we will find a scant few, they were nearly all condemned as heretics) who manifested these things or uttered prophecies (extra-biblical revelation): that were REAL AND PROVEN SO (DON'T BOTHER WITH CATHOLICISM PLEASE).
i take the following warnings (just a sample) seriously.
Deuteronomy 13:3
Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Revelation 2:2
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
uh . . . me thinks that was the point????
The only way the text can say that is if there is a HUGE miracle happening in the hearing of the people.
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