Dr.Strangelove
Well-Known Member
Oh a big AMEN to that Child. Right on Sister.
Can we get back to basics people?
We dont worship at the altar of our feelings. We worship in spirit and in tuth.
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i'm nothing more than a sinner saved by Grace, through Faith in the Finished Work of Jesus The Christ.
i walk by faith, not by sight.
~ child
Check this out.. see how each has control over when or if?
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, twoor at the most threeshould speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28 If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God
So let Him then Simon.. If it's HIS will, then why not comply??
32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.
33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace
No but yeah.. we're using GOD"S "methods" that GOD ordained and put into place.
He said DESIRE spiritual gifts.. Why would He say that? (Something to really consider
because think about it.. why didn't He just force them on us??)
Anyhow.
WE, as His BODY move as the Head gives direction.
Christ was here in a physical body doing healing and wow etc.
He is NOW here in a physical body doing those same things (WE that body)
But if you're a cessationist (got that right this time lol) that
wouldn't add up for NOW but would be the way it USED to work.
My experience though has proven that it's for now.
Watching God use me... me lol...because He
DESIRES a BODY to manifest THROUGH...
(EMphasis, not frustration caps) Its His program
and He wants to bless His people this way.
Child of Jesus said:Ih8s8n said:Child of Jesus: Did you even read my post to Dr.Strangelove? If so, then there's definitely more than "one thing" that he's wrong about and they are all BIG deals.
i think Doc's theology is pretty sound.
Child of Jesus said:Ih8s8n said:In other words, whereas you've pulled "the old switcheroo" by setting up the strawman of the likes of Copeland and Browne,
strawmen?
did i pay those men to represent Pentecostalism?
did i put them on YouTube?
do i send them tithe money?
am i among the MILLIONS that believe, support and follow them?
they are considered legitimate by MILLIONS who call themselves Christians.
rather than evade THAT fact by trying to pin THEIR apostasy on me because i hold them up to scrutiny, please address it scripturally: are the followers of those men DECEIVED? and if so, how did it happen?
i am not really addressing those 2 men: ITS THE UNTOLD MILLIONS WHO BELIEVE AND EMULATE THEM. Please address how that HAPPENED?
Child of Jesus said:Ih8s8n said:I'll stick with what the scriptures actually teach on the topic and not lean upon false teachers to denounce true teachings from scripture.
with all due respect, the issue for me IS FALSE TEACHERS.
it isn't a fruitful discussion if we can not aknowledge and address how these false teachers managed to get into the church and deceive millions. are these lying signs and wonders?
i want to know what it is that differentiates their activity from true manifestations, and how one discerns this.
particularly, if the followers of those men can be deceived, can not others as well who claim these same gifts?
a straight answer would lead to a truly fruitful discussion, mutually respectful.
i wish to know how, if they are false teachers, so many millions haven't figured that out. should we care? is it STRONG DELUSION sent by God Himself (2 Thess 2)? could be very serious.
the fact that you admit they are charlatans PROVES that i and others have very valid concerns. these are very serious matters.
Child of Jesus said:Ih8s8n said:Anyhow, since you refer to yourself as a "Child of Jesus", what do you do with verses such as these in relation to our "righteousness"?
and here it comes.
you feel defensive over the topic (which you in this post admit is a valid concern for some of us, since you say in so many words these men are fakes)....so now it's about ME, and my unrighteousness, MY sinfulness.
but that's okay. i'm used to this from the Charismatic crowd. it ALWAYS comes down to this. don't address the millions of deceived "Christians" who follow those wolves: address the one who QUESTIONS IT.
Child of Jesus said:Ih8s8n said:"If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." (I John 2:29)
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whoso ever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (I John 3:7-10)
Are you "doing righteousness"? If not, then you'd better either start "PERFECTING HOLINESS in the fear of God" (II Corinthians 7:1) or change your username.
are you "doing righteousness"?should i take your word for it?
Child of Jesus said:Ih8s8n said:Whether you're aware of it or not, you're basically asking me by what name am I called.
i know what i asked you.
which denomination did you learn about these gifts from?
but you folks won't answer that.
if you could tell me the name of your College, your teachers, your denomination....anything, i could do as i am commanded to do and test all things.
Child of Jesus said:Ih8s8n said:I am called by the name of Jesus Christ, as His is the only "name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)
Amen.
is it okay for me to claim His Name also?
or are you able to discern via cyberspace i'm not "doing righteousness" enough? is it because i question men and their MILLIONS of deceived followers you even admit is real?
why the 'tude, bro'? don't taze me.
Child of Jesus said:Ih8s8n said:That's always been my genuine position and it will never change. At the same time, since I understand what you're after, I have seen many things that have taken place within professing Christendom over the last 22+ years (since I've become a Christian) and especially some of the abominations that have been falsely attributed to "the gifts of the Spirit". And? Do such conterfeit movements cancel out that which is true? Of course, they do not.
as a matter of fact, they may send people to hell.
and they may keep poor sinners from coming to Christ becase a sinner KNOWS OCCULT acitivity when they see it.
so your brushing aside of these abominations when we genuinely seek to address them for The Kingdom's sake is sad.
do you think you're the only righteous Christian on the planet trying to obey and test the spirits and walk in His paths?
we get ridiculed and called flamers, and our salvation is questioned: BECAUSE we are trying to discern.
Child of Jesus said:Ih8s8n said:Anyhow, in regards to what is true, I'll address that in a future post where I'll primarily look at "What saith the Lord"...as opposed to "What saith Copeland, Browne...or even you".
or even YOU.
don't use intimidation with me.
just reason and intelligence is fine.
are you claiming to be a prophet also?
in case you didn't know, one of the ways we discern what is true is by discerning what is FALSE. this is a GIFT, but we must USE ITso i won't be shushed away from doing so.
1. Since it seems rather apparent that Paul had the Jewish feasts of Passover, Unleavened Bread, Firstfruits and Trumpets in mind when he was writing his first epistle to the Corinthians, are you willing to consider that he did, in fact, also have the feast of Pentecost in mind when he was writing to the Corinthians about spiritual gifts?
No.. but it should be.So edifying yourself is a usual thing then yes?
I posted it earlier in the thread...Oh boy. Some scripture to support the practise of edifying ones SELF please.
EDIFY 3618 oikodoméō (from 3624 /oíkos, "a house" and domeō, "to build") properly, to build a house (home, edifice); (figuratively) to edify literally, "build someone up," helping them to stand (be strong, "sturdy").
[/QUOTE]Doc looking in the mirror >> Come on Docster....you can do it fella...you can win this debate man :::: yer the greatest big boy....your a shining light! Your the best!
Heeeeeyyy this edifying yourself malarky aint all bad ya know! Course it would feel a lot worthier if someone else was doing it. Hmmmm.
Gifts have ceased remember?
Discerning of spirits.
People often get that messed up.
And not ONE person here suggests such a thing so why say such a thing?
It's called a strawman and it's just a waste of my time.
One of the greatest things you can do for a "potential" Christian is to offer them fruit of the Spirit, including healing if God leads you to.
Thank you.
That would be "That which is perfect"
I'd really like this to be the focus of the thread..
which is why i started it that way
I never said that it wasn't a serious matter, only that it's not the topic of this thread. Start another thread. In all likelihood, I'll participate. Also, as I said in one of my posts from earlier today, I've preached against/withstood such false teachers for MANY years. MANY years. As to why so many people are duped by them, there are probably several reasons. I'm quite confident that I know what some of them are. Like I suggested, start another thread and I'll more than likely participate in it. I'm all for warning the brethren of false teachers.
Go ahead, manifest that fruit before us so we can know you, murder your brother in Christ by name-calling and stuff.
Make no mistake,..
Any person claiming to be Christian that outwardly hates groups of people who are professed Christians is a liar, the love of GOD is not in them.
Dude, you're mouse was cute & funny at first, & then he drove a little batty for awhile. Then he went away for a long, long time & I would remember him & wonder where he was. I hadn't thought of him for a long time & suddenly he's back! LOL! I can't believe how much I missed him.What is the fruit? Are people perfect in love or are bashing their brothers in Christ?
It's not like this one is hard to see.
I'm charged the goin' rate & it's killin' me.Some people are scared of the light.
It wont silence us though. We are charged:
Ih8s8n;56444680.......... For thou VERILY or TRULY givest thanks well. That's a FAR CRY from the alleged REBUKE that Dr.Strangelove would have us to believe that Paul allegedly gave to those who allegedly "were dabbling in all kinds of occultic and pagan practices". A FAR CRY. [B said:"I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words WITH MY UNDERSTANDING, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." (I Corinthians 14:18-19)[/b]
Did you catch that? There's a SECOND CONFIRMATION that even Paul didn't understand what he was saying when he spake in an unknown tongue. So much for that "Paul was referring to the many different EARTHLY languages that he spoke" GARBAGE. Yes, GARBAGE.
"Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord." (I Corinthians 14:20-21)
Where exactly "in the law" was this "written"? There's no need to guess.
"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: FOR WITH STAMMERING LIPS AND ANOTHER TONGUE WILL HE SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE. TO WHOM HE SAID, THIS IS THE REST WHEREWITH YE MAY CAUSE THE WEARY TO REST: AND THIS IS THE REFRESHING: YET THEY WOULD NOT HEAR. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." (Isaiah 28:9-13)
I know that that whole "line upon line...precept upon precept...here a little, there a little" is always "quoted" (MIS-) in a positive sense, but, in reality and in context, it is actually stated in a negative sense. In other words, this (seeking to be justified by the law) is what those WHO REFUSE GOD'S REST or WHO REFUSE THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT would cling to instead of turning to Christ. Yes, such folks would ultimately "fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken". Anyhow, THIS IS THE REST WHEREWITH YE MAY CAUSE THE WEARY TO REST. WHAT is "the rest"? In context, as Paul just stated in I Corinthians 14:21, THE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT. Like I said, I wouldn't want to be any of those on this thread (or elsewhere) who fight against THE VERY REST THAT WAS FOREORDAINED OF GOD. Sorry to shout, but I'm trying to wake some people up to their true conditions as enemies of God...in this particular aspect, at least.
"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all. And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face, he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God." (I Corinthians 14:22-28)
Paul only forbad the speaking of tongues in the church if there was no interpreter present.
"Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? IF ANY MAN THINK HIMSELF TO BE A PROPHET, OR SPIRITUAL, LET HIM ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE THINGS THAT I WRITE UNTO YOU ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD. BUT IF ANY MAN BE IGNORANT, LET HIM BE IGNORANT. WHEREFORE, BRETHREN, COVET TO PROPHESY, AND FORBID NOT TO SPEAK WITH TONGUES. Let all things be done decently and in order." (I Corinthians 14:29-40)
THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD. For those who wish to ignore such commandments, the text instructs them to be ignorant still. Those are Paul's words and not mine.
As far as the STRAWMEN of Copeland, Browne, Hinn, etc. are concerned, I've found them all to be FALSE for more reasons than one. I do not support them in any way, shape or form and I have, in fact, warned people about such for many, many years. These charlatans aside, the scriptures still say what they plainly say. In other words, the abuses of some (many) do not negate what God has ordained for His people.
Take care.
Dr.Strangelove: I'll be extremely busy for the next two days, so I really cannot get into any drawn out discussions at this time. For now, I'll simply say this:
I've been a Christian for a little over 22 years. For probably about the first 12 years or so of my Christian walk, I did travel rather extensively within so-called "Pentecostal circles". During that timeframe, I cannot honestly say that I encountered even one pastor whom I deemed/discerned to even be a Christian. A pretty serious claim, but that is my personal determination after having seriously/prayerfully examined the evidence that was set before me. From what I've experienced, the main problem within the "Pentecostal circles" that I travelled in was/is PRIDE. In other words, I saw "minister" after "minister" after "minister" after "minister" who certainly seemed more interested in making a name for themselves than bringing honor to the name of Jesus. Also, unlike some (based upon comments that I've read throughout this forum), I do not believe that these crazy manifestations that are purported to be of the Holy Spirit (I see NOTHING HOLY in them at all) are simply "works of the flesh". No, I have every reason to believe that many/most/possibly all of them are demonic in nature.
"For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguilded Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth ANOTHER JESUS, whom we have not preached, OR IF YE RECEIVE ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have not received, OR ANOTHER GOSPEL, which ye have not accepted, ye might bear with him." (II Corinthians 11:2-4)
Although, in context, the "another Jesus" and "other gospel" of which Paul specifically spoke was in relation to the Judaizers of his day, I've personally seen and heard many "another Jesus'" foisted upon undiscerning (not always...sometimes the people are simply getting what they want) people throughout the years. These "another Jesus'" are part of "another gospel" AND they have "ANOTHER SPIRIT" attached to them. In other words, they are DEMONIC in nature, as the serpent's (Satan's) beguiling practices did not cease in the garden of Eden.
"Slain in the Spirit"? "Holy Ghost laughter"? "Behaving like animals"? I've withstood it all for years...many times in person (when I travelled in those circles in an attempt to help to fix the problem) and many times via writing. As messed up and un-Biblical as many of these things/people are, I would still like to mention the two following things:
1. In my extensive travels, I also encountered quite a few genuine, sincere, Spirit-filled, Spirit-led Christians who were totally grieved with what was transpiring within their midsts. Sad to say (Been there, done that, myself), such objectors were squelched by the so-called "ministers" and usually, if not always, just left their respective churches. In other words, all of the corruption aside, there are still some genuine examples of those who have experienced what the scriptures genuinely teach along these lines and the proverbial baby is not to be thrown out with the bathwater (even if the bathwater is over just about everyone's head).
2. And this really should be number 1. Even if NO ONE followed the true Biblical teachings in these regards, the true Biblical teachings are still there. In other words, in your zeal to expose what is false, be careful not to trample upon what is true.
Can I recommend any leaders of this "movement" to you? No, I cannot. Can I recommend the Biblical Pentecost to you? Yes, I can.
That's all that I have time for right now.
Take care.
P.S. Of course, I am NOT omniscient. By that, I mean to say that although I have travelled pretty extensively in these "circles" in the past, I have obviously not been to every church/convention in the world. Not even close. I'm just giving you testimony from my own experiences...experiences that I've judged according to God's Word.
I'm charged the goin' rate & it's killin' me.
Do you guys have uniforms & a logo?
(I'm picturin' boots & capes)
thanks for your long and thoughtful post on these matters.
i've experienced God's miracles in my life and seen them in the lives of others.
life itself is a miracle.
you will see i have tried to say healing is NOT guaranteed in the Atonement, but God does heal.
my position on the other matters can be addressed later.
i want to look at TRUE VS FALSE manifestations, and how people can be deceived (for this i have been called a murderer, a liar, and a hater on this thread).
much of what you wrote (personal testimony) (over the previous 2 posts) is wonderful!
i disagree with your interpretation of Corinthians however (i'm not the only one on the planet, so we needn't be mutually offended...i may go back to this later, though my position is clear).
with that said, i just read a post by you at another thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7523887/
THE TWO TESTIMONIES HAVE ME THOROUGHLY PERPLEXED.
on the one hand, in the post below you are unequivocal in that much of this stuff is demonic.
yet in this thread (That which is Perfect), you just brush aside the counterfeits as not worthy of discussion.....its this that causes skepticism.
if possible, putting aside the textual analysis of Corinthians for now, i would like to say that i DO QUESTION much of what goes on in thse movements, as you did in the other thread. so, again, as i've been trying to stress, yet dialogue is sidetracked over tone and so on (which i accept responsibility for my own rudeness, and affirm that i have a change of heart there)....
....is it possible to discuss HONESTLY how people are to know the true manifestations from the false?
i honestly feel tremendous alarm when i see untold MILLIONS of people involved in something even mainline Pentecostals will admit is false (i.e.: Copeland/Toronto/Pensecola) etc.
CAN WE PLEASE ADDRESS THE REAL POSSIBLITY THAT NOT ALL IS DIVINE? i really need to understand how so many can be deceived or duped by the charlatans (who you in the post below, admit are active).
anyone who could contribute here would be helpful,
coJ
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