That Boat Don't Float!!

[Montalban]

I don't pretend to have a degree in English Literature, then sit and wonder what the difference is between an ark and a ship in the Bible.

No. You type your musings here and no matter how many people explain it to you you keep doing it.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I don't pretend to have a degree in English Literature, then sit and wonder what the difference is between an ark and a ship in the Bible.

True -- if you bothered to pretend to know, you'd at least attempt an explanation.

 

[SkyWriting]

No evidence is quite correct. Very little is recorded about Jesus (at least that exists) and his life. Most evangelical Christians really have no idea or understanding as to the scant evidence for the existence of a man named Jesus. They would have you believe that the gospel writers sat down and wrote their accounts while Jesus was alive or shortly after. In fact, however, the gospels were written 100-200 years after the death of Jesus.

The lasting impression that a man makes when he physically walks on the earth
(or on water) is slight. Granted. So we would have to use other methods to
gauge a persons impact.

History does record that most of the disciples were killed for their belief in
what they said about Jesus. If the Holiness and Divinity of Jesus was not
real, these 12 were all fooled by the son of a carpenter with delusions of
grandeur, because men will die for what they believe, but men won't die for
a cause they know to be a lie.

The impact a person has on the people around him helps to secure a spot
in history after ones death. 1 out of 3 people in the world is a significant
impact and good grounds for having existed.

"The New Testament has been preserved in more manuscripts than any
other ancient work, having over 5,800 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts,
10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages
including Syriac, Slavic, Gothic, Ethiopic, Coptic and Armenian." Wiki


The first documented references to the four gospels occur within the 150 - 200
year time frame. However, internal evidence within the writings place them
lead scholars to conclude " Mark was written some time after the year 70,
Luke about 110, Matthew about 130, and John not earlier than 140 A.D"

I find no claims of any authorship during the years 30-33, while Jesus was
alive ministering his disciples before his death. So I don't know where you
might be getting your data from, but it seems unreliable.

All this really is nothing compared to my personal relationship with God that
I experience when I trust Jesus to handle the outcome of any situation.
And He does handle it.

 

[SkyWriting]

Hm... and if it had a keel and sails, of course it could not have been a three-dimensional artifact depicting, in type, Jesus, because we all know that, while Jesus is box-shaped, he doesn´t keel.

So perhaps instead of munching through deep horsesh... er, theology... could you simply state the relevant difference between calling this box "ship" or "ark"?

You can't see the symbolism involved if you downgrade it to a mere ship.
If you think the story is literal, it's not a ship anyway.

If you think the story is a metaphor for something else
you'll miss the analogy entirely by not considering
it The Ark.

 

[SkyWriting]

The "watercraft" - the STRUCTURE - could not stay afloat.

Each piece of your OP has been dismantled.

Your examples included stability in heavy waves and the story does not.
Your suggestion that the failure of one boats design, will result in the failure
of another boats design is ludicrous beyond belief.

But your stand is not without president. I am quite sure that if the Bible
told a story of a wooden vessel that was only half as long as the Ark
but it could fly...you would scoff at that too.

A number of Arks models have been built. The stability of the design
has been proven. Currently the only floating arks use steel hulls
though complete wooden versions are under construction.

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

The lasting impression that a man makes when he physically walks on the earth
(or on water) is slight. Granted. So we would have to use other methods to
gauge a persons impact.

History does record that most of the disciples were killed for their belief in
what they said about Jesus. If the Holiness and Divinity of Jesus was not
real, these 12 were all fooled by the son of a carpenter with delusions of
grandeur, because men will die for what they believe, but men won't die for
a cause they know to be a lie.

Jim Jones. Not his cult members, but Jim Jones himself. He died for what he knew was a lie.

Either that, or he truly thought what he believed was true - in which case we could apply that to the disciples.....

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

Your examples included stability in heavy waves and the story does not.

I see. So those fountains of the deep and floodgates of heaven produced a completely calm sea? And those rainstorms did the same?

Even if they did, you have the entire surface of the world covered in water - no land to break up the effects of wind on the surface of the water. That my friend would result in enormous waves from the wind alone.

Your suggestion that the failure of one boats design, will result in the failure
of another boats design is ludicrous beyond belief.

That is not my suggestion. I simply gave an EXAMPLE to show the problems a bigger ship would have to face. The suggestion is that the physical properties of wood prohibit such an Ark. And they do. There is not getting around it.

But your stand is not without president

.Would that be Obama? Bush? Clinton? George Washington?

I am quite sure that if the Bible
told a story of a wooden vessel that was only half as long as the Ark
but it could fly...you would scoff at that too.

I likely would if it showed itself physically impossible.

 

[Hespera]

Jim Jones. Not his cult members, but Jim Jones himself. He died for what he knew was a lie.

Either that, or he truly thought what he believed was true - in which case we could apply that to the disciples.....

"but men won't die for
a cause they know to be a lie. "

Cant ask all the Germans who didnt believe in Hitler's cause or his lies, but died for him anyhow, coz, you know, they died. So you cant ask them.

Same with Mao and a whole lot of Chinese.

its weird how religionologists bring up this same argument over and over when it so obviously a, yes, lie. Tsk tsk.

 

[Hespera]

I see. So those fountains of the deep and floodgates of heaven produced a completely calm sea? And those rainstorms did the same?

Even if they did, you have the entire surface of the world covered in water - no land to break up the effects of wind on the surface of the water. That my friend would result in enormous waves from the wind alone.

That is not my suggestion. I simply gave an EXAMPLE to show the problems a bigger ship would have to face. The suggestion is that the physical properties of wood prohibit such an Ark. And they do. There is not getting around it.
.Would that be Obama? Bush? Clinton? George Washington?



I likely would if it showed itself physically impossible.

To understand Creo Credo, just think of the Red Queen....

"Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." ...

 

[Nathan Poe]

History does record that most of the disciples were killed for their belief in what they said about Jesus. If the Holiness and Divinity of Jesus was notreal, these 12 were all fooled by the son of a carpenter with delusions of grandeur, because men will die for what they believe, but men won't die for a cause they know to be a lie.

I'll see your 12 and raise it to 19 --

I guess their cause was even more true, right, Sky?

 

[Nathan Poe]

You can't see the symbolism involved if you downgrade it to a mere ship.
If you think the story is literal, it's not a ship anyway.

If you think the story is a metaphor for something else
you'll miss the analogy entirely by not considering
it The Ark.

What was it called in the original Hebrew? Because if's it's only an "ark" by translation, then the metaphor is a product of man, not God.

Besides, I thought bible literalists don't believe in metaphors or analogies?

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

What was it called in the original Hebrew? Because if's it's only an "ark" by translation, then the metaphor is a product of man, not God.

Besides, I thought bible literalists don't believe in metaphors or analogies?

It was called "Tebah" in the original Hebrew - only "ark" through translation. Good point there.

 

[Nathan Poe]

It was called "Tebah" in the original Hebrew - only "ark" through translation. Good point there.

See what happens to people who think God's language is English?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Actually ark is a mistranslation from hyperspace vehicle. You see the ark had a hyperspace drive that allowed them to slip into a time warp. Only a few hours went by for them during the flood. That way they didn't have to feed the animals or worry about thousand of tons of poop and they were safe from any wind or waves in their hyperspace bubble. They just didn't mention all that stuff in the bible because people in those days wouldn't have understood hyperspace. Piece of cake.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Actually ark is a mistranslation from hyperspace vehicle. You see the ark had a hyperspace drive that allowed them to slip into a time warp. Only a few hours went by for them during the flood. That way they didn't have to feed the animals or worry about thousand of tons of poop and they were safe from any wind or waves in their hyperspace bubble. They just didn't mention all that stuff in the bible because people in those days wouldn't have understood hyperspace. Piece of cake.

That's actually not the most asinine explanation I've heard. Poe's Law strikes again.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

That's actually not the most asinine explanation I've heard. Poe's Law strikes again.

I am glad you like it. I tried hard.I came up with that after watching too much star trek and Dr. Who. Though I must admit I have heard some YECs say basically the same thing. I thought of saying the ark was also like the Tardis but it is already pretty big on the outside.

Of course the ark also had a transporter beam to get the marsupials to and from Australia. Unfortunately it malfunctioned with the dinosaurs and they all died.

 

[AV1611VET]

The suggestion is that the physical properties of wood prohibit such an Ark. And they do. There is not getting around it.

I know the Way* around it:

Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

* John 14:6a Jesus saith unto him, I am the way,

 

[ZephyrWiccan]

I know the Way* around it:

Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

* John 14:6a Jesus saith unto him, I am the way,

IOW, "Miracle dunn done it, hyuk!"

 

[SkyWriting]

Jim Jones. Not his cult members, but Jim Jones himself. He died for what he knew was a lie.

Either that, or he truly thought what he believed was true - in which case we could apply that to the disciples.....

Then we agree. Jesus was either the Son of God,
or a lunatic who led all his immediate followers into death as Jim Jones did.

(Yes, I know that's not what you said)

 

[Hespera]

Then we agree. Jesus was either the Son of God,
or a lunatic who led all his immediate followers into death as Jim Jones did.

(Yes, I know that's not what you said)

Nope. there are several other possibilities, that are way more likely than either of those.